Step 1: file grievance or talk?

[Inthegame]

Thanks for everyone's input, Update:

Talked to sups both pt and ft and the steward, talked with some older guys who've been here 15+ years. Seems like everyone who's filed a grievance were eventually put on suspension for a long period or fired for bogus reasons although most come back. This actually explains at lot of why sups seem to antagonize certain hourlies. I know myself well enough that I'm not aware or invested enough in the job to watch my back every night or not blow up at a sup for hassling me. I'm gonna just do minimum work for my 3.5 hrs and focus on my 2nd job more.

Well that is what probably 90% of drivers do. Although few will admit it. You'll hear a lot of big talk, and you find out later, they've filed "maybe" 5 grievances in 5 years. Maybe not even that. Management will start looking at everything you do, and it can and probably will become a war. That is why, some of the people have been fired (at least once)! Drivers are probably more under the gun. But management is having a hard time keeping part timers (YMMV). Better to not say anything, than to make a big fuss, and not do anything (in my opinion). Do what you feel is best, because it will escalate to a war. If everyone stood up, management couldn't battle everyone - but there's probably only 3-5 hardcore guys in the center that do daily battle with them.
In the case of drivers - management will fire you, the first solid opportunity anyway - they just don't look as hard at the guys who don't say anything.
You should do what works best for you. Plan ahead.

Sounds like a couple of prime candidates for the "I'm afraid of my own shadow club".

 

[twoweeled]

Sounds like a couple of prime candidates for the "I'm afraid of my own shadow club".

That's a HUGE club among drivers. Better get a HUGE meeting hall.

 

[Nimnim]

I can see drivers showing up to work early as they have to gather what they will need for the day. PTers really have no reason to show up early.

I know you were an off the street driver so I don't fault you for not knowing how it can be for the inside workers. I show up anywhere between 15-30 minutes early on average. First reason is parking, it's a good timeframe to get good parking, second is the guard shack. I showed up 10 minutes before start time once and spent 10 minutes in line at the guard shack as there were that many people who showed up at the same time and had to be searched and wanded.

After that there's nothing wrong with getting to work 15 minutes early and either scoping out your assigned work area to know how much it's going to suck or sit around the timeclock with your coworkers shooting the . Been more than a handful of times I showed up early and an early start person called out so the sup gave me the time because I was present, qualified, and available.

 

[Dr.Brownz]

I can see drivers showing up to work early as they have to gather what they will need for the day. PTers really have no reason to show up early.

Why even have an opinion on that topic? Who cares....are you that bored your worrying about when a part time worker shows up to work? When I was part time I showed up early for various reasons. Sometimes I could start a half hour early and go home early leaving the new guys to do the crap work of moving the overloaded smalls bags that weigh 60lbs each

 

[twoweeled]

I know you were an off the street driver so I don't fault you for not knowing how it can be for the inside workers. I show up anywhere between 15-30 minutes early on average. First reason is parking, it's a good timeframe to get good parking, second is the guard shack. I showed up 10 minutes before start time once and spent 10 minutes in line at the guard shack as there were that many people who showed up at the same time and had to be searched and wanded.

After that there's nothing wrong with getting to work 15 minutes early and either scoping out your assigned work area to know how much it's going to suck or sit around the timeclock with your coworkers shooting the . Been more than a handful of times I showed up early and an early start person called out so the sup gave me the time because I was present, qualified, and available.

Showing up early for a parking space? No problem. Getting a cup of coffee, shooting the @$#P, getting through the guard shack. I'm sure no one is referring to that.
Going to your work area? Hanging around in case they need someone to jump in? Probably end up talking to management about business related stuff? THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
Rationalizing your early starting. You will be the guy (when you start driving) in his car early, setting up his load. Watch! You'll rationalize that too.

 

[twoweeled]

Why even have an opinion on that topic? Who cares....are you that bored your worrying about when a part time worker shows up to work? When I was part time I showed up early for various reasons. Sometimes I could start a half hour early and go home early leaving the new guys to do the crap work of moving the overloaded smalls bags that weigh 60lbs each

Why do you have an opinion on "Upstate" having an opinion? It appears that your just as worried about his opinion, as he's (so called by you) worrying about when a part timer shows up for work. It's obvious you were one of those guys who had no problem working off the clock. No doubt, you had a lot of ways to reason it away. Working for free was not a problem for you, as long as management liked you (or so you thought). I'm betting (if your still working) you still show up early to please management - And still rationalize it away. Personally, I'd feel stupid working for free, regardless of how many excuses I came up with. But to each his own!

 

[km3]

You will be the guy (when you start driving) in his car early, setting up his load. Watch! You'll rationalize that too.

I don't think he's talking about working off the clock, and if he's getting paid to do that, then who cares?

 

[twoweeled]

I don't think he's talking about working off the clock, and if he's getting paid to do that, then who cares?

Because he's catering to management. He's making himself available, in case management under staffs. Management knows, they can play staffing on the lean side. Worse case scenario, they have a man standing there waiting on call, that they don't have to pay (on call). If needed, they put him to work, and potentially cut out a higher seniority worker because the higher seniority person doesn't feel like coming into work early (for free) just to hang around.
When management get caught with their pants down a few times, they pick up the manning (staffing). Thanks to people who hang around on their own time (for free), they don't have to pick up staffing. This can go so far as to result in getting the guy on the bubble layed off.
If he's going to check out his work area off the clock, we all know what that's about. We all know about the mentioning (management) of production numbers or other issues in passing,,,when your there early off the clock.

 

[km3]

Because he's catering to management. He's making himself available, in case management under staffs. Management knows, they can play staffing on the lean side. Worse case scenario, they have a man standing there waiting on call, that they don't have to pay (on call). If needed, they put him to work, and potentially cut out a higher seniority worker because the higher seniority person doesn't feel like coming into work early (for free) just to hang around. When management get caught with their pants down a few times, they pick up the manning (staffing). Thanks to people who hang around on their own time (for free), they don't have to pick up staffing. This can go so far as to result in a someone getting the guy on the bubble layed off.
If he's going to check out his work area off the clock, we all know what that's about. We all know about the mentioning of production numbers or other issues in passing,,,when your there early off the clock.

But at least they're finding a member of the bargaining unit to do the work instead of supervisors. That's what happens when a shift like Twilight or Midnight goes down around here--supervisors start cutting hourlies, and they do the work themselves. That's far worse than if an hourly who happens to get in early gets asked to help out, imo. If they understaff, intentionally or otherwise, I'd rather they try to find a union member to do the work than start working themselves.

I get in 30 minutes early every day. For the most part, it's a result of my commute--I drive so far to get to work, that I need to give myself a buffer just in case there's an issue with the traffic along the way. On a bad day, I've barely made it in 5 minutes before sort time. On good days (most days), I get in 25 minutes early. If they ask me to work, I'll do it...and make them pay me overtime for the difference between my actual start time and scheduled start time later.

I do agree that it's disgusting for some people to come so early that it's absurd. I see drivers who don't start getting paid until 8:45 at the earliest in the building as early as 7. Now there, I agree wholeheartedly that there's no legitimate reason for them to even be in the parking lot at that point, let alone inside the building.

 

[twoweeled]

But at least they're finding a member of the bargaining unit to do the work instead of supervisors. That's what happens when a shift like Twilight or Midnight goes down around here--supervisors start cutting hourlies, and they do the work themselves. That's far worse than if an hourly who happens to get in early gets asked to help out, imo. If they understaff, intentionally or otherwise, I'd rather they try to find a union member to do the work than start working themselves.

I get in 30 minutes early every day. For the most part, it's a result of my commute--I drive so far to get to work, that I need to give myself a buffer just in case there's an issue with the traffic along the way. On a bad day, I've barely made it in 5 minutes before sort time. On good days (most days), I get in 25 minutes early. If they ask me to work, I'll do it...and make them pay me overtime for the difference between my actual start time and scheduled start time later.

I do agree that it's disgusting for some people to come so early that it's absurd. I see drivers who don't start getting paid until 8:45 at the earliest in the building as early as 7. Now there, I agree wholeheartedly that there's no legitimate reason for them to even be in the parking lot at that point, let alone inside the building.

Yes, it is better than having supervisors doing the work. It's just not as good as staffing correctly. Sad, but what your saying is exactly true. They would/do the work themselves if no one is around to see them. Filing grievances (and getting them to pay) will curve the supervisors from working. Then you sometimes encounter the problem, the local doesn't aggressively go after getting the grievance paid. I know there are problems with this. It's a constant fight at work, now. It isn't going to get any better. It's going to get worse.
Yeah, I understand that some people really just gotta do, what they gotta do. Be it because of commute times, kids, or whatever. But I really believe, most of us know the ones who are just showing up early to work off the clock. We all know how management likes to talk about business when they know your not on the clock. Most guys don't have the nerve to tell management;
I'm not on the clock yet. Do you want me to punch it"? Suddenly, that discussion isn't so important to management. It's a chess game at work.
I understand the guy who's new, just starting out and hasn't passed probation. He's gotta make it first. Aside from the exceptions - I've never understood the thinking of working for free.

 

[dudebro]

Because he's catering to management. He's making himself available, in case management under staffs. Management knows, they can play staffing on the lean side. Worse case scenario, they have a man standing there waiting on call, that they don't have to pay (on call). If needed, they put him to work, and potentially cut out a higher seniority worker because the higher seniority person doesn't feel like coming into work early (for free) just to hang around.
.

It's great to ascribe evil thoughts to mgmt. wherever convenient, but this is not what happens at all. Think of this like a business person. Is mgmt. really going to go light on people making $10 per hour for the opportunity to use a top rate driver on overtime? You generally lose more than that, because where a preloader will clean up a set, a driver will typically feel he or she should only help clean his/her own load.
When staffing is light in a P/T operation - it's usually due to absenteeism, plain and simple. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule.

 

[burrheadd]

It's great to ascribe evil thoughts to mgmt. wherever convenient, but this is not what happens at all. Think of this like a business person. Is mgmt. really going to go light on people making $10 per hour for the opportunity to use a top rate driver on overtime? You generally lose more than that, because where a preloader will clean up a set, a driver will typically feel he or she should only help clean his/her own load.
When staffing is light in a P/T operation - it's usually due to absenteeism, plain and simple. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule.

Dudebro what's goin on

I just like saying dudebro

 

[dudebro]

Dudebro what's goin on

I just like saying dudebro

Relaxing and watching Bill Maher. A P/T sup I worked with in 1992 called everyone that, so it's my name on here.

 

[burrheadd]

Relaxing and watching Bill Maher. A P/T sup I worked with in 1992 called everyone that, so it's my name on here.

That's what a buddy of mine calls everybody
Annoying as hell

 

[clean hairy]

First, I'm not a steward so my options are ignore it, talk to them, or get a steward to talk to them and file a grievance.

Second, this thread was about precharge (which I assume to be early start setup work) and wrapup (cleaning up at the end of the shift.) If I show up 15 minutes before a normal start for me on the midnight shift and the twilight sup is loading a trailer I can say to them, "Hey, why're you loading the trailer. An hourly should be doing it and I'll grieve it if you continue." At that point they either tell me to load it, get another hourly to do it or keep doing it knowing I'll grieve it. Nothing lost, either I or someone else gets paid to work or I file a grievance. No reason to run off to get a steward to talk to them for something I can handle with one statement. If they continue working and I file a grievance I just state I addressed the contract violation to them and they continued to violate.

Stewards are great, but a strong union also relies on strong members who know how to follow the contract as well. Running to a steward over a clear cut violation doesn't solve it any faster than telling them you're going to file if they continue. If they stop, done. If they don't you get with the steward and file.

In a case such as this, I let them know they have 2 options.
1) I get paid the 15 minutes to watch them work, or
2)I can start 15 minutes early and I get paid do the work.
Of course option 1 is nice, get paid double time for the 15 min they worked, and did not even have to touch a box!

 

[Nimnim]

I've been trying to ignore this because I know every facility is different, but I keep getting notifications because apparently what I posted before is like signing a contract with the devil or something.

Showing up early for a parking space? No problem. Getting a cup of coffee, shooting the @$#P, getting through the guard shack. I'm sure no one is referring to that.
Going to your work area? Hanging around in case they need someone to jump in? Probably end up talking to management about business related stuff? THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
Rationalizing your early starting. You will be the guy (when you start driving) in his car early, setting up his load. Watch! You'll rationalize that too.

Me and almost everyone else passes at least 2 PDs to get to their work area as the entrance is at one PD and the shortest distance to an unload/sort isle or to the stairs to the small sorts or secondary sorts passes at least another PD. A an irreg driver I pass the first PD at the entrance then go right to the next where the irreg equipment is supposed to be which is 10 feet from the next PDs timeclock which we use at it's the closest timeclock because we don't have one. I can still see the next PD without even moving from my gather area. If I show up 15 minutes or more early and I'm at my gather area and there's no irreg mules because the twilight shift is still using them but there's 5 full irreg trains without mules attached within viewing distance I know the start of my night is going to suck.

But at least they're finding a member of the bargaining unit to do the work instead of supervisors. That's what happens when a shift like Twilight or Midnight goes down around here--supervisors start cutting hourlies, and they do the work themselves. That's far worse than if an hourly who happens to get in early gets asked to help out, imo. If they understaff, intentionally or otherwise, I'd rather they try to find a union member to do the work than start working themselves.

I get in 30 minutes early every day. For the most part, it's a result of my commute--I drive so far to get to work, that I need to give myself a buffer just in case there's an issue with the traffic along the way. On a bad day, I've barely made it in 5 minutes before sort time. On good days (most days), I get in 25 minutes early. If they ask me to work, I'll do it...and make them pay me overtime for the difference between my actual start time and scheduled start time later.

I do agree that it's disgusting for some people to come so early that it's absurd. I see drivers who don't start getting paid until 8:45 at the earliest in the building as early as 7. Now there, I agree wholeheartedly that there's no legitimate reason for them to even be in the parking lot at that point, let alone inside the building.

There are twilight hourlies that do grieve all the supervisors working, especially at the end of their shift because the twilight hourlies are being told no over 5, the 22.3s are different, and as such there's more than a handful that are hawkish about getting the grievances as they're getting kicked off the clock 30 minutes to an hour before my shift starts at times. I'll say something to their sups if I haven't seen any of the twilight people I know who will grieve it. It's their shift so they get the grievance before me in my opinion.

Yes, it is better than having supervisors doing the work. It's just not as good as staffing correctly. Sad, but what your saying is exactly true. They would/do the work themselves if no one is around to see them. Filing grievances (and getting them to pay) will curve the supervisors from working. Then you sometimes encounter the problem, the local doesn't aggressively go after getting the grievance paid. I know there are problems with this. It's a constant fight at work, now. It isn't going to get any better. It's going to get worse.
Yeah, I understand that some people really just gotta do, what they gotta do. Be it because of commute times, kids, or whatever. But I really believe, most of us know the ones who are just showing up early to work off the clock. We all know how management likes to talk about business when they know your not on the clock. Most guys don't have the nerve to tell management;
I'm not on the clock yet. Do you want me to punch it"? Suddenly, that discussion isn't so important to management. It's a chess game at work.
I understand the guy who's new, just starting out and hasn't passed probation. He's gotta make it first. Aside from the exceptions - I've never understood the thinking of working for free.

Did I ever say I did work off the clock? I show up and put my bag on my equipment to claim it so I don't have to fight over equipment at the last minute with my coworkers. We all do it as irreg drivers. There's no equivalent to PC drivers as they don't show up and randomly claim a PC and then load it after their start time.

A few of us show up early for various reasons and none of us are working unless we're assigned a setup time or asked to start up early because the twilight shift before us really dropped the ball. We show up, claim equipment and just banter amongst ourselves until start time. We are right in front of a PD though and can see 2 others without really moving so if there's a sup loading we can and do say something to them quite often if there's no loaders for the midnight shift present already doing so.

It's great to ascribe evil thoughts to mgmt. wherever convenient, but this is not what happens at all. Think of this like a business person. Is mgmt. really going to go light on people making $10 per hour for the opportunity to use a top rate driver on overtime? You generally lose more than that, because where a preloader will clean up a set, a driver will typically feel he or she should only help clean his/her own load.
When staffing is light in a P/T operation - it's usually due to absenteeism, plain and simple. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule.

The last few weeks have been prime for the argument on absenteeism for my shift. As annoying as it is for people now to show up, management is trying to crack down on double shifting which is forcing them to pay attention and hold people accountable for attendance. At the same time though management has also been eating late sort downtimes instead of having sups load/unload consistently. It's probably worse on the call for the grievances than going down and sealing 20+ loads 30 minutes late. That or they really like being abused in calls and emails.

 

[km3]

I've been trying to ignore this because I know every facility is different, but I keep getting notifications because apparently what I posted before is like signing a contract with the devil or something.

There is an unwatch thread link at the top right corner of the first post on this page if you don't care about this discussion anymore.

 

[SoCalUPS]

Follow your steps of your grievance procedure in your CBA.

 

[Kounter Klockwize]

Hub cut precharge/wrapup for hourlies which means sups are now doing those jobs, should I file a grievance or talk with someone first?

File those sups no the rules. Talking falls on deaf ears.

 

[twoweeled]

File those sups no the rules. Talking falls on deaf ears.

EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID!!! Perfect! File, or don't Complaint. Talk = 0