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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 74173" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>ok & m2c,</p><p>This morning on the tube I ran across a program on C-Span taped earlier this week at the Aspen Institute on pensions and savings for/by workers. They had persons like former IRS Commissioner Fred Goldberg to officials from H&R Block, Goldman Sachs, Pension Rights groups, Congress Pension and Tax Committee counsels, and just as important voices. There were even a couple of reps. from employer type advocacy groups. I came into it well into the program and was only able to watch about 20 minutes because I had to leave for another committment but the discussion centered on pension and private accounts like 401k's etc. From what I heard by a variety of persons of varying interests they seemed to suggest that in fact the whole pension structure as we know it is dying and being replaced by private held accounts. The question or concern and quite valid I might add was in the transition you didn't destroy the former before the latter was well in place for all. In other words as I've heard it described before, you decide you're going to build a new house but before you get the first wall up, you tear down the one you live in currently. May be good motivation to move forward but puts the pressure on to get something in place and not always the right thing. This is a very legit concern too.</p><p> </p><p>A couple of ideas thrown around was one of mandating employees take part in these private vehicles. The Senate and House counsels spoke up regarding this and in fact mandating has been considered and is being looked at. From the names mentioned of Senators, this idea is not a one party thinking but is bi-partisan. With the mandates would also come Congressional oversite of for example 401k's that would vastly restrict where that money could be invested. Another area of discussion had to do with structuring the tax code to promote more savings on the part of the individual. The H&R Block guy had a real unique idea in that the current tax code promotes large scale overwithholding in that the average refund check is over $2100. He suggested restructuring the tax code where over withholding wasn't the preferred way and that this excess could be better utilized funding retirement and savings account instead of being used to foster consumer goods and services bottomlines via that refund check. I felt that thought had some merit worth consideration. Of course, those who for whatever reason weren't in a position to do this were also discussed as to how to fund their retirements as well. The H&R Block guy or maybe it was someone else said this mechanism may prove a better transitional method of funding private accounts than to start taking away SS dollars as we approach the babyboomers retiring. You know my feelings on SS but I thought that was an idea worth consideration as well. </p><p> </p><p>There was some talk of pensions but I think that was wrapping up as I tuned in. What I could tell from the tone was everyone pretty much agreed the employer pension was a dying beast and ironically it was the tax code that helped this. 401k, which is a IRS code section hence the name, was the vehicle that helped to start this trend according to this panel of experts. They did a lot of focus on the tax code and they see this as the mechanism for shaping economic policy. We tend to think of taxes as a way for gov't to pay for services and that is true but it's also as much a means of shaping fiscal public policy for the national economic health as it is the former. In 1913' our gov't created the Federal Reserve as a means of planning and controlling the economic & currency needs of this country but in the same year we also had the income tax imposed and there is a connection. Over the succeeding years it's been a game of playing policy maker to see how and who will control the game. A chief tool or weapon, pick your poison, is the taxing powers and thus the hard focus on tax policy. This may play again over the weekend so if you get the chance check it out.</p><p> </p><p>Let me get a bit conspiratorial for a minute. I'm not so sure Washington wants to fix pension and SS problems and it's the workforce and taxation that I think suggests this. Over the last couple of decades, if you take the immigrant/alien influx out of the American picture, the actual core American population has in fact declined. Couple that with the large babyboomer generation in the on-deck circle to retire and you have a potential crisis brewing. On the one hand you have gov't who needs a expanding economy to pay for our unending appetite for all things gov't but at the same time you need a workforce capable of not only filling the needs of this economic machine with workers but the gov't needs the taxpayers as well. Both edges of this sword are equally sharp. The workforce is about to take a huge hit with a large chunk of workers about to call it a day and to make matter worse be a huge draw on that "all things gov't" idea. How would one put off the potential calmity that such actions would bring on? Those nice pensions not being so nice after all would be one. Sure you may leave company #1 at 60 with the nice gold watch but you take a couple of weeks off for you and your better half to take that once in a lifetime trip and then firstday back is the firstday of your new and next career working for another gold watch. I saw a recent report where over the next decade over 10 million jobs will go unfilled because of lack of workers in this country. What would this suggest about any real effort of securing the borders? Or for that fact moving jobs out of the country? Some jobs may be about money and some may be about qualified workers to begin with as it pertains to jobs leaving the USA. </p><p> </p><p>How would you keep current workers in the market so that this 10 million impact might be reduced? How would you keep workers in the workplace so that some who would qualify for SS might push that draw off into the future several more years while at the same time continue to pay SS taxes thus helping the system take in more? What if the age for earliest draw on your IRA or 401k were raised to match the qualifying for drawing SS? It has been discussed. If to many people draw SS then the excess funds now used by Congress to fund other things like political promises to the home district power brokers that got them elected in the first place would dry up and how then would Sauron rule with no ring and these Orc armies sustain themselves? Could we be facing not a problem but a developed and planned circumstance? Sure, I agree it's X-Files talk but mankind's political history is littered with the dead bodies of such conspiracies and intrigue.</p><p> </p><p>While on taxes I think the President's Tax Council is a joke but over the last couple of years there has been an effort to get into law was is known as the Fair Tax which is a national sales tax. On the one hand some of the financials being throw around look great and would also suggest that in recent years when the gov't had shortfalls, with the sales tax idea there would have been a surplus. That part is true but what you can't control with a national sales tax is what people will do with their money and that is the real hangup of the whole idea. This system of taxes allows the indivdual to decide economic policy instead of Washington but our economic system will only work with a planned tax system not an unplanned and controlled like a National Sales tax. It's like having massive amounts of cancer in the body but only treating the small skin cancer on the arm thinking this will be the sure all of cure all. The patient will still likely die. </p><p> </p><p>Like UPS, Uncle Sammy has a master business plan and no matter what that plan must succeed in order to be successful in their eyes. Protect and promote the plan at all costs. This takes lots of planning and controlling or eliminating the unwanted varibles in life that crop up. With the current system Congress can play political games and favorites and via policy promote one aspect of American life while on the other side demote another. All this done via the taxing powers. Orwell's 1984' has been in our laps the whole time we just don't want to admit it. The National Sale tax idea strips Congress, Washington and the lobbyist some of the powers that give the ability to shape and manipulate the American public and therefore it has no chance as much as on that one aspect alone I'm all for it. Sometimes in order to tear down a castle all you have to do is knock down one support support instead of knocking over the entire North wall. Taxes are a necessity but I believe they have become a political weapon rather than an instrument of promoting true public good. </p><p> </p><p>Lastly and on the fair tax to suggest a corp/gov't alliance behind the scenes concerning our tax system, ironically it's Home Depot who spoke out about the Fair Tax idea and they were opposed to it. Basically they said it would threaten consumerism and thus their bottomline. K Street has guns aimed at any effort to massively change tax policy and therefore any effort to promote savings among the average folk will be at threat from them. K Street controlled Bush's so-called Tax Council and the finished product appears to be nothing more than the same ole' same ole. The 82' TEFRA Act and the restructured Code of 1986' were both hailed as leading edge positive changes but at the end of the day it was absolutely meaningless and useless except to the few choosen to benefit from the well placed provisions in the tax code. I have no doubt when we look back in the years ahead at Bush's council we too can take solice in another opportunity lost to the powers of K Street. </p><p> </p><p>To me this sez a ton about Sauron and the Orc Army that runs this country and has since the early part of the last century!</p><p> </p><p>BTW: If you learn about Washington DC and who resides on K Street you'll understand the importance of it's mention. c ya!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 74173, member: 2189"] ok & m2c, This morning on the tube I ran across a program on C-Span taped earlier this week at the Aspen Institute on pensions and savings for/by workers. They had persons like former IRS Commissioner Fred Goldberg to officials from H&R Block, Goldman Sachs, Pension Rights groups, Congress Pension and Tax Committee counsels, and just as important voices. There were even a couple of reps. from employer type advocacy groups. I came into it well into the program and was only able to watch about 20 minutes because I had to leave for another committment but the discussion centered on pension and private accounts like 401k's etc. From what I heard by a variety of persons of varying interests they seemed to suggest that in fact the whole pension structure as we know it is dying and being replaced by private held accounts. The question or concern and quite valid I might add was in the transition you didn't destroy the former before the latter was well in place for all. In other words as I've heard it described before, you decide you're going to build a new house but before you get the first wall up, you tear down the one you live in currently. May be good motivation to move forward but puts the pressure on to get something in place and not always the right thing. This is a very legit concern too. A couple of ideas thrown around was one of mandating employees take part in these private vehicles. The Senate and House counsels spoke up regarding this and in fact mandating has been considered and is being looked at. From the names mentioned of Senators, this idea is not a one party thinking but is bi-partisan. With the mandates would also come Congressional oversite of for example 401k's that would vastly restrict where that money could be invested. Another area of discussion had to do with structuring the tax code to promote more savings on the part of the individual. The H&R Block guy had a real unique idea in that the current tax code promotes large scale overwithholding in that the average refund check is over $2100. He suggested restructuring the tax code where over withholding wasn't the preferred way and that this excess could be better utilized funding retirement and savings account instead of being used to foster consumer goods and services bottomlines via that refund check. I felt that thought had some merit worth consideration. Of course, those who for whatever reason weren't in a position to do this were also discussed as to how to fund their retirements as well. The H&R Block guy or maybe it was someone else said this mechanism may prove a better transitional method of funding private accounts than to start taking away SS dollars as we approach the babyboomers retiring. You know my feelings on SS but I thought that was an idea worth consideration as well. There was some talk of pensions but I think that was wrapping up as I tuned in. What I could tell from the tone was everyone pretty much agreed the employer pension was a dying beast and ironically it was the tax code that helped this. 401k, which is a IRS code section hence the name, was the vehicle that helped to start this trend according to this panel of experts. They did a lot of focus on the tax code and they see this as the mechanism for shaping economic policy. We tend to think of taxes as a way for gov't to pay for services and that is true but it's also as much a means of shaping fiscal public policy for the national economic health as it is the former. In 1913' our gov't created the Federal Reserve as a means of planning and controlling the economic & currency needs of this country but in the same year we also had the income tax imposed and there is a connection. Over the succeeding years it's been a game of playing policy maker to see how and who will control the game. A chief tool or weapon, pick your poison, is the taxing powers and thus the hard focus on tax policy. This may play again over the weekend so if you get the chance check it out. Let me get a bit conspiratorial for a minute. I'm not so sure Washington wants to fix pension and SS problems and it's the workforce and taxation that I think suggests this. Over the last couple of decades, if you take the immigrant/alien influx out of the American picture, the actual core American population has in fact declined. Couple that with the large babyboomer generation in the on-deck circle to retire and you have a potential crisis brewing. On the one hand you have gov't who needs a expanding economy to pay for our unending appetite for all things gov't but at the same time you need a workforce capable of not only filling the needs of this economic machine with workers but the gov't needs the taxpayers as well. Both edges of this sword are equally sharp. The workforce is about to take a huge hit with a large chunk of workers about to call it a day and to make matter worse be a huge draw on that "all things gov't" idea. How would one put off the potential calmity that such actions would bring on? Those nice pensions not being so nice after all would be one. Sure you may leave company #1 at 60 with the nice gold watch but you take a couple of weeks off for you and your better half to take that once in a lifetime trip and then firstday back is the firstday of your new and next career working for another gold watch. I saw a recent report where over the next decade over 10 million jobs will go unfilled because of lack of workers in this country. What would this suggest about any real effort of securing the borders? Or for that fact moving jobs out of the country? Some jobs may be about money and some may be about qualified workers to begin with as it pertains to jobs leaving the USA. How would you keep current workers in the market so that this 10 million impact might be reduced? How would you keep workers in the workplace so that some who would qualify for SS might push that draw off into the future several more years while at the same time continue to pay SS taxes thus helping the system take in more? What if the age for earliest draw on your IRA or 401k were raised to match the qualifying for drawing SS? It has been discussed. If to many people draw SS then the excess funds now used by Congress to fund other things like political promises to the home district power brokers that got them elected in the first place would dry up and how then would Sauron rule with no ring and these Orc armies sustain themselves? Could we be facing not a problem but a developed and planned circumstance? Sure, I agree it's X-Files talk but mankind's political history is littered with the dead bodies of such conspiracies and intrigue. While on taxes I think the President's Tax Council is a joke but over the last couple of years there has been an effort to get into law was is known as the Fair Tax which is a national sales tax. On the one hand some of the financials being throw around look great and would also suggest that in recent years when the gov't had shortfalls, with the sales tax idea there would have been a surplus. That part is true but what you can't control with a national sales tax is what people will do with their money and that is the real hangup of the whole idea. This system of taxes allows the indivdual to decide economic policy instead of Washington but our economic system will only work with a planned tax system not an unplanned and controlled like a National Sales tax. It's like having massive amounts of cancer in the body but only treating the small skin cancer on the arm thinking this will be the sure all of cure all. The patient will still likely die. Like UPS, Uncle Sammy has a master business plan and no matter what that plan must succeed in order to be successful in their eyes. Protect and promote the plan at all costs. This takes lots of planning and controlling or eliminating the unwanted varibles in life that crop up. With the current system Congress can play political games and favorites and via policy promote one aspect of American life while on the other side demote another. All this done via the taxing powers. Orwell's 1984' has been in our laps the whole time we just don't want to admit it. The National Sale tax idea strips Congress, Washington and the lobbyist some of the powers that give the ability to shape and manipulate the American public and therefore it has no chance as much as on that one aspect alone I'm all for it. Sometimes in order to tear down a castle all you have to do is knock down one support support instead of knocking over the entire North wall. Taxes are a necessity but I believe they have become a political weapon rather than an instrument of promoting true public good. Lastly and on the fair tax to suggest a corp/gov't alliance behind the scenes concerning our tax system, ironically it's Home Depot who spoke out about the Fair Tax idea and they were opposed to it. Basically they said it would threaten consumerism and thus their bottomline. K Street has guns aimed at any effort to massively change tax policy and therefore any effort to promote savings among the average folk will be at threat from them. K Street controlled Bush's so-called Tax Council and the finished product appears to be nothing more than the same ole' same ole. The 82' TEFRA Act and the restructured Code of 1986' were both hailed as leading edge positive changes but at the end of the day it was absolutely meaningless and useless except to the few choosen to benefit from the well placed provisions in the tax code. I have no doubt when we look back in the years ahead at Bush's council we too can take solice in another opportunity lost to the powers of K Street. To me this sez a ton about Sauron and the Orc Army that runs this country and has since the early part of the last century! BTW: If you learn about Washington DC and who resides on K Street you'll understand the importance of it's mention. c ya! [/QUOTE]
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