The Big 3

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by stringerman85, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. stringerman85

    stringerman85 New Member

    What's everyone's take on the auto industry? Should we bail out the Big 3 to save more jobs? Or is it wasted money like the republicans say it is? However the missouri republican senator is in favor of the bailout I will add...
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008
  2. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    Not without major mgt changes.
    Also its time for the gov't to ease up on their own involvement within the auto industry.
    Let the market decide what will sell, bring to America those high mileage diesel cars.
  3. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    I have mixed feelings on this, and my brother is a GM employee. The government did bail out Chrysler a while back, and the money was repaid to the taxpayers. But then a part of me says that if a business keeps making bad decisions, then maybe they need to fail. GM is losing a billion a month right now. But on the other hand, not only do you have a large number of autoworkers, you also have all these subcontractors that will be affected. I started my Helper last week, and she used to drive a car carrier delivering cars to dealerships.

    Some of the current problem is the government's fault too. The credit market businesses rely on to run has been upset in part because of the poor lending practices forced on mortgage companies. I think if it does come to bailouts, it should have a lot of strings attached. No big executive bonuses, build cars people want, redo the way these companies run. They currently are extremely inefficient in the way their product line is implemented. Its a complicated problem.
  4. The Other Side

    The Other Side Well-Known Troll Troll

    The most important thing to understand is that by keeping the last sector of manufacturing alive in the united states will bring more jobs to the country.

    If the big 3 are left alone to fail, and as this recession grows deeper, the millions of people who would be out of jobs from the auto industry could put the country into a DEPRESSION.

    I have read all the posters points about the goverment reducing their inputs on safety issues and mileage regulations, but this is silly. All the other companies have to meet those standards and they are all still in business.

    Here is an accessment of the current auto industry:

    Auto Sales Tank

    Wednesday, October 01, 2008 | 01:55 PM

    The recent data has been nothing short of astonishing. Auto sales, which were weak over the past 11 months, simply went into freefall in September:
    Ford Motor posted a 34% drop. Their truck and van sales fell 39%, SUV sales plummeted 57% and F-series truck sales dropped 42%.
    • Honda reported a 24% decline in sales;
    • Toyota U.S. Sept. sales drop 32.3%, light truck sales dropped 38%
    • Lexus sales -- Toyota's luxury nameplate -- fell 37.7%;
    Chrysler U.S. September sales fall 33%
    • Volvo sales slumped 51.8%;
    • Porsche tumbled 45%;
    General Motors sales down 15.6% (better than the expectations of -26%)
    • Nissan Sales down 37%
    • BMW U.S. sales dropped 25.8%
    • Mercedes-Benz reported sales off -16.4%

    • Volkswagen sales for September fell 9.4%;
    • Hyundai Motor's U.S. sales fell 25%;
    • Kia U.S. sales slide 27.8%
    • Audi U.S. sales are down 5.4% (but they are a low volume marquee, selling 7, 584 units, vs small Korean mfr KIA, which sold 17,383)

    This means the bog winners were VW, (-9.4%), GM, whose sales were better than expected (-15.6%), and Mercedes Benz (-16.4%).
    I cannot recall ever seeing Toyota sales down 32% . . . According to the Detroit Free Press, the seasonally adjusted annual SAAR for the past decade has ranged between 14 million and 17 million vehicles. Since December, the SAAR has been in a free-fall, and September now looks like its going to hit 13 million annualized sales. noted that the last time fewer than 1 million new vehicles were sold in a month was February 1993.
    In a related Reuters story, a new study says that nearly 1 in 5 car dealerships could fail:
    "As many as 3,800 U.S. car dealerships could fail this fall and into 2009 -- nearly one in five -- because of weak sales, increased operational costs and the credit crunch, according to a forecast released on Wednesday. "An increasing number of dealers are simply closing their doors because sales have plummeted, credit has dried up, the overall retail environment is increasingly challenging and potential investors are sitting on the sidelines," said Paul Melville, a partner with Grant Thornton LLP, which issued the forecast."....................
    This new administration can no longer follow the BUSH policy of letting the infrastructure of this country fail. Bush has done NOTHING over the last 8 years to protect any jobs in this country. He has encouraged and enticed businesses to take their businesses overseas.

    We need these jobs and the products they make. They just have to make the kinds of products that will sell in a declining economy.

    Simply making millions of large SUV's so soccer moms can drive 1 child to school everyday is no longer practical.

    The domestic car companies allowed the japanese to take over the luxury car markey both here and abroad. Our big gas guzzlers are no longer liked in europe and passed over for the toyotas, hondas and Nissans.

    The larger luxury cars that are re-branded here as Lexus, Infinity and Acura's are still Toyotas, Nissans and Honda's abroad. They only exist by those fancy names in the States.

    If the big 3 want to recapture the market in any way, they have to re-tool and follow the japanese lead and make more fuell efficient cars. Its that simple.:dead:
  5. The Other Side

    The Other Side Well-Known Troll Troll

    Now, if the big three were to fail, and this new administration does nothing to try to protect the industry, then just imagine how many related businesses will fail along with how many people will go onto the unemployment lines and goverment programs.

    If 1 in 5 dealerships are failing right now, what about when it gets to 4 out 5 dealerships?

    How many mechanics and dealership staff will be out of jobs?

    How many parts stores will close?

    How many stereo shops, pinstripers, window tinters, custom wheel makers, trailer companies, toneau cover shops, etc etc will also be out of business?

    The related lists can go on and on.

    The problem still lies with the Home foreclosure industry. Until this is fixed, everything else will fail.

    The auto sale "bubble" is crashing as well.:dead:
  6. av8torntn

    av8torntn Well-Known Member

    Government helped kill the auto industry with all the over regulation. All of these regulations should be repealed immediately. This would allow them to produce a product that people would like to buy. Then they could work on their obvious labor issues. If they could reduce their input costs for labor that would certainly help them. If they were just allowed to reduce staffing when demand slowed that would help. I do not think the government would ever do this so they should just allow these companies to fail.
  7. The Other Side

    The Other Side Well-Known Troll Troll

    AV8, You keep citing OVER regulations. Can you list the OVER regulations that YOU believe are hurting the auto industry? Right now, you could make domestic cars for FREE and they still wouldnt sell.

    The Japanese makers are subject to the SAME regulations and they are still out selling the domestic makers 8 to 1.

    What about the ratio of japanese cars to domestic cars for sale? What impact do you think this makes on auto sales head to head?

    Why when under the Clinton administration, imports were restricted and domestic sale rose to their highest levels in history? Then, BUSH comes in, relieves the Imports from restrictions and the numbers reverse again?

    How do you attribute this to labor and safety regulations?

    Why not give us some insight to the depth of your thinking or is your position merely the same nonsense posed by RUSH LIMBAUGH who's claims are the same as yours coincidentally?

    He's on the radio as I speak repeating this same thing, regulation this, safety that, let them build what the want and somehow that will fix auto sales. Blah blah blah...

    So, lets hear it AV8, post your knowledge on the safety and other regulations that need to be removed for the big 3 to be competitive.

    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008
  8. Monkey Butt

    Monkey Butt You can call me Chappy Staff Member

    Please stop using Rush's last name.
    I enjoyed posting about the Canadian rock group Rush, the best damm rock band soberups ever heard!

    Though his mind is not for rent,
    Dont put him down as arrogant.
    His reserve, a quiet defense,
    Riding out the days events.

    Exit the warrior,
    Todays tom sawyer,
    He gets high on you,
    And the energy you trade,
    He gets right on to the friction of the day.

    PS - I have 20 of their albums/CDs.
  9. drewed

    drewed Shankman

    I read in newsweek that since ford saw the coming storm three years ago and sought financing (cash on hand to go through 2010-beginging of 2011), sold off Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Landrover and retooled their factories towards smaller vehicles they'll be out on top when its all said while GM and Chrysler may have to sell out due to not being able to gain financing in these economic times.
  10. sortaisle

    sortaisle Livin the cardboard dream

    Bail them out I say, but it really needs the right kind of oversight. I think GM's electric program will eventually lead the way for the big 3 comeback. These companies need to survive until the economy rights itself. Apparently the most I've heard is by this time next year, we could right ourselves somewhat. I tend to believe that so many people are so excited that when Obama takes office, it will start off a little spending spree because of the hope they have in him and a renewed hope in the US economy. I think this will be the best thing he'll do is raise peoples hope. I hope he does and I hope he puts my worries to rest. Even though I don't agree with his social policies or his fiscal policies, I do wish him the best of luck and hope that he has a fantastic presidency. He'll be fully retired by the time he's...what...55? he's 47 right? Wether you like him or not folks, if you pray at all, he'll need you to lift him up. I think God puts people in charge for a reason, so apparently he's right for our times. God Bless Obama and the US!
  11. diesel96

    diesel96 New Member

    In the year 2112......And the meek shall inherit the Earth....

    But lets stick to TOS's points about the "Working man"

    Ok, enough of the "Rush" soundbytes.......

    Imagine if the free market had the insight to launch this and other similar technology in the US instead of just Europe ten years ago. Amazing how a surge in gas prices paralyzes this country.....Maybe the best thing that ever happened to this country.....reality check.
    The Gov't doesn't stop the free market from innovative research and Development. Profit, sales and returns to the shareholders does. The automakers all play on a level playing field, whether you blame it on regulations or labor costs. But here's a new word for US Automaking Exec's "Sacrifice"
  12. Monkey Butt

    Monkey Butt You can call me Chappy Staff Member

    Working Man Blues - Merle Haggard

    It's a big job just gettin' by with nine kids and a wife
    I been a workin' man dang near all my life
    I'll be working long as my two hands are fit to use
    I'll drink my beer in a tavern,
    Sing a little bit of these working man blues

    Hey hey, the working man, the working man like me
    I ain't never been on welfare, that's one place I won't be
    Cause I'll be working long as my two hands are fit to use
    I drink a little beer in a tavern
    Sing a little bit of these working man blues
  13. Monkey Butt

    Monkey Butt You can call me Chappy Staff Member

    I've tried hard but I can't disagree with any of that.

    Basically, the government should force them into Chapter 11, then help them and let them come out of this meaner and leaner with a viable business plan.

    I see some of the things that UPS has been and is doing to keep us from getting into this kind of position. It's painful now but if we did not we could be in the same kind of mess 10 years from.
  14. av8torntn

    av8torntn Well-Known Member

    Just to get you started change the progressive income tax to a regressive income tax, eliminate capital gains taxes, eliminate a minimum wage, eliminate social security taxes, Medicare taxes, fuel standards, safety standards, OSHA, overtime regulations, ban cap and trade, and promote free trade in no particular order. I mean eliminate mandatory frontal crash testing and standards, airbag requirements, seatbelt requirements, child safety lock requirements, headrest requirements and heater requirements. We have tried it your way with all the excessive regulation now lets try my way and let the market decide what they want to purchase. The real problem is if you give people a choice you fear that they would not make the choice you want them to make.

    Take a look at this if you really think that Jap cars outsell US autos here by an 8 to 1 margin. Personally I think it is something that you just made up but you probably just copied it from somewhere. GM, Ford and Chrysler by themselves had almost %45 of the market share. Not looking good for your 8 to 1.
  15. Channahon

    Channahon New Member

    I heard the UAW went to DC along with the Big 3. Does anyone know what their positions are to help save their employees demise, should a bailout not occur?
  16. They deserve to fall look how many different cars they made. Ford has about 30 there all junk. Why can't they make one good car in that class. Like the civic and the accord.
    If they would make a good car we wouldn't need some many parts stores.
    GREED GREED GREED. Amercian cars don't even compare. after 150,000 there junk. honda or toyota its just breaking in at 150,000 miles. So many reasons they should fall. Fords been in business for how many years; you would think after all these years they still have come up with a car thats worthy. Name one.
    There know for there trucks they finally got into the game recently. But they still don't compare to toyota, Now hondas making a move.
  17. toonertoo

    toonertoo Most Awesome Dog Staff Member

    I had one bad Chevy, and it only made 150k. an s10.
    Camaro=204k and could no longer find a tranny as it was 1 yr one yr only. So that was bad. but, hello.
    Cavalier=Over 200k and wrecked by a kid, or I would still be driving it.
    98 gmc 250k and drive it to work daily. Needs a door handle.
    2002 silverado, my low mileage vehicle, 150k runs like a dream, not a problem, 1 fuel pump.
    80 Berlinetta, parked for the winter.
    64 Nova in stage of rebuild, found it in a field and its still solid.
    I get sick of hearing American cars are junk. Some people dont know how to care for one, or break it in properly.
    I say we "loan" them the money. Thats what they are asking for, not a handout. We need our car companies. Who will build our tanks for ww3, China? Japan? Korea? Nope we will be screwed.
  18. av8torntn

    av8torntn Well-Known Member

    F series truck number one selling vehicle in October. Fusion, Focus, and Escape are all in the top 20 for the month of October.
  19. stringerman85

    stringerman85 New Member

    My dad retired with Ford a couple of years ago, I hope they can turn it around and give it another shot
  20. over9five

    over9five Senior Member Staff Member

    Bought a new Explorer two weeks ago. My fourth, I love them!