The Black Market Is Becoming The Dominate Marketplace

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
It is a fact that you claimed that transportation companies fell victim to blackmail and were driven out of business. You have a clear record of dishonesty here so you cannot blame me much for asking for something to back up that statement can you really? I do not know if you lied or not but given that you have lied in the past to try to prove a point with me I only can only assume that you have done it once again given the opportunity to prove your point followed by your normal finger pointing.

On to your broader point yes it is beneficial to society as a whole to have the ability to move goods, and people efficiently and at a low cost.

You have a clear record of attempting to distort what I've said. UPS and FedEx do this all the time (shipper blackmail) as shippers play the carriers off against each other in search of a cheap rate. They do the same wiith the trucking companies. You clearly are unaware of this reality, which is typical. Yawn...
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
You have a clear record of attempting to distort what I've said. UPS and FedEx do this all the time (shipper blackmail) as shippers play the carriers off against each other in search of a cheap rate. They do the same wiith the trucking companies. You clearly are unaware of this reality, which is typical. Yawn...

I've never heard of "shipper blackmail" and neither has Google so don't bother telling me to go google it.

I never thought of myself as a blackmailer when I get three estimates for a house repair or car repair. I hope I don't go to jail for this.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I've never heard of "shipper blackmail" and neither has Google so don't bother telling me to go google it.

I never thought of myself as a blackmailer when I get three estimates for a house repair or car repair. I hope I don't go to jail for this.

Talk with your UPS Sales Rep. Why do you think that major accounts switch back and forth on a semi-regular basis? For years, FedEx would try and steal UPS major accounts by under-bidding the contracts. In other words, FedEx would take a loss on the account just to build package volume and hopefully take the account permanently the next year, at which point they'd try and negotiate a profitable rate. Were the shippers on board with this and encouraging it? You bet.

Do shippers play-off transportation providers against each other all the time? Yes, they do. And they are ruthless about getting hugely discounted rates. They know exactly what they are doing. Sounds like neither of you have any Sales or Operations experience. Amazing. Are you sure you don't "drive" a desk?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Talk with your UPS Sales Rep. Why do you think that major accounts switch back and forth on a semi-regular basis? For years, FedEx would try and steal UPS major accounts by under-bidding the contracts. In other words, FedEx would take a loss on the account just to build package volume and hopefully take the account permanently the next year, at which point they'd try and negotiate a profitable rate. Were the shippers on board with this and encouraging it? You bet.

Do shippers play-off transportation providers against each other all the time? Yes, they do. And they are ruthless about getting hugely discounted rates. They know exactly what they are doing. Sounds like neither of you have any Sales or Operations experience. Amazing. Are you sure you don't "drive" a desk?

Hmmm so the consumer in order to get the most for the least amount using their position to obtain that goal and somehow you seem to find fault with that? It's like saying, "this competition is just killing us!"

As I said Hmmmmmm!

The big shipping consumers realized several years ago that shipping rates have now been commoditized and they have become experts in the name of costs at playing that game to the maximum. That is a good example of where the consumer is king where markets have real choices and this drives in efficiencies to maximize output at the lowest cost. If those prices did the reverses and went up, how would that effect the poor whose goods are shipped in via these high cost means? You're not suggesting the poor pay for your good life are you?
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
If those prices did the reverses and went up, how would that effect the poor whose goods are shipped in via these high cost means? You're not suggesting the poor pay for your good life are you?

I'm beginning to suspect MrFredEx also hates the poor.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Talk with your UPS Sales Rep. Why do you think that major accounts switch back and forth on a semi-regular basis? For years, FedEx would try and steal UPS major accounts by under-bidding the contracts. In other words, FedEx would take a loss on the account just to build package volume and hopefully take the account permanently the next year, at which point they'd try and negotiate a profitable rate. Were the shippers on board with this and encouraging it? You bet.

Do shippers play-off transportation providers against each other all the time? Yes, they do. And they are ruthless about getting hugely discounted rates. They know exactly what they are doing. Sounds like neither of you have any Sales or Operations experience. Amazing. Are you sure you don't "drive" a desk?

I know all this and although I get irritated with the process, I respect these shippers looking out for business and their customers.

UPS and FedEx do not have to put out bids that they are not comfortable with.

This is pretty much how competitive bidding works.

Honestly, I do not understand your position or your logic ...it's a bit confusing to me.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I know all this and although I get irritated with the process, I respect these shippers looking out for business and their customers.

UPS and FedEx do not have to put out bids that they are not comfortable with.

This is pretty much how competitive bidding works.

Honestly, I do not understand your position or your logic ...it's a bit confusing to me.

I'll re-state my point so you can hopefully understand. Prior to deregulation in the 1980's, trucking rates and airline ticket prices were basically fixed by tariffs. All of the major motor carriers operated out of the same book and life was good for the big carriers. Same with the airlines. The CAB set fares, and the major airlines were doing quite well.

After deregulation, it was a free for all, as rates were slashed to the point of barely being profitable. This was a win/win for shippers and a lose/lose for motor carriers. Big Business had just been handed a huge gift in the form of defacto subsidized freight rates. Many carriers folded, and lower cost firms sprang-up, willing to cut corners on safety to keep rates low. The same for airlines. Unions were the biggest losers because ultra-low fares weren't sustainable by many carriers, who also folded, merged, or slashed union agreements. Breaking-up the unions and reducing membership was another gift to Corporate America.

This is like manna from Heaven for Libertarians, because this is the "free market" at play. Never mind that Reagan killed-off many middle class jobs while busting the unions. But since Reagan manipulated the market, it really wasn't any more free...just rigged in favor of business and against labor.

Anyway, in today's environment trucking companies and airlines have very high operating ratios, with slim profit margins. One one hand, transportation has become a relative bargain, and many more people can afford to fly. On the other, the middle class has been reduced, and trucking companies have 70-80% driver turnover because they can't afford to pay competitive wages. They also particpate in the rate wars I mentioned, which drive down costs to business but have created other associated problems, especially in the area of truck safety.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
I'll re-state my point so you can hopefully understand. Prior to deregulation in the 1980's, trucking rates and airline ticket prices were basically fixed by tariffs. All of the major motor carriers operated out of the same book and life was good for the big carriers. Same with the airlines. The CAB set fares, and the major airlines were doing quite well.

After deregulation, it was a free for all, as rates were slashed to the point of barely being profitable. This was a win/win for shippers and a lose/lose for motor carriers. Big Business had just been handed a huge gift in the form of defacto subsidized freight rates. Many carriers folded, and lower cost firms sprang-up, willing to cut corners on safety to keep rates low. The same for airlines. Unions were the biggest losers because ultra-low fares weren't sustainable by many carriers, who also folded, merged, or slashed union agreements. Breaking-up the unions and reducing membership was another gift to Corporate America.

This is like manna from Heaven for Libertarians, because this is the "free market" at play. Never mind that Reagan killed-off many middle class jobs while busting the unions. But since Reagan manipulated the market, it really wasn't any more free...just rigged in favor of business and against labor.

Anyway, in today's environment trucking companies and airlines have very high operating ratios, with slim profit margins. One one hand, transportation has become a relative bargain, and many more people can afford to fly. On the other, the middle class has been reduced, and trucking companies have 70-80% driver turnover because they can't afford to pay competitive wages. They also particpate in the rate wars I mentioned, which drive down costs to business but have created other associated problems, especially in the area of truck safety.

Okay ... I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Essentially, you do not like competition in the marketplace.

I've never considered this before ... I'll mull over your point of view for a couple of days before responding.

I've never considered this before ... hmmmm.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Okay ... I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Essentially, you do not like competition in the marketplace.

I've never considered this before ... I'll mull over your point of view for a couple of days before responding.

I've never considered this before ... hmmmm.

No, competition is fine, as long as there hasn't been any manipulation to the market. A market without such manipulation would be the truly free market envisioned by Libertarians. Unfortunately, it does not exist, and cannot exist given our current political system. As long as there are special deals and favorable circumstances created by throwing money at our legislators, the competitive process is corrupted.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
No, competition is fine, as long as there hasn't been any manipulation to the market. A market without such manipulation would be the truly free market envisioned by Libertarians. Unfortunately, it does not exist, and cannot exist given our current political system. As long as there are special deals and favorable circumstances created by throwing money at our legislators, the competitive process is corrupted.

There is less chance of an actual free market than a Libertarian getting elected President ... much less.
You are basically saying you will never be satisfied unless there is a perfect system ... there has never been a perfect system in the last 15 billion years and never will be in the future.

I'll stick to my observation that you don't like competition in the marketplace since a perfect system will never exist.
I'm still mulling over "hatred of competition" as a political viewpoint.
I'll get back to you.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Going back to the first post and what Amanpour had to say, would it be fair to say that the 2nd and 3rd worlds who are moving into the black markets or what you can call a free market (maybe not pure mind you), they do so not to manipulate the market but rather because others (connected to state privilege) have manipulated the legit markets that deny these people the ability to otherwise act in a free world of self determination?

Seems to me that these people being poor for the most part, are finding freedom and self determination, this may speak more about what the free market is than anything else. In the textbook sense, it may not be the pure ideal we have in the western 1st world but the first principle of a free market is that it's free to be shaped in the way those who take part in it want it to be. You can have a true free market and it not even be capitalist to begin with which I know some of you can't wrap your heads around because you've bought the illusion that free market and capitalism are synonymous terms. Free market is as old as man first making trades of spear points or furs but capitalism in that name is less than 200 years.

Amanpour's report shows that the world is beginning to vote on the global economic order dominated by western interests and they are rejecting economies of central planned nationstates and embracing the idea of freed markets of local scale. With micro tooling and open source engineering, once the 2nd and 3rd world realizes they can do so much for themselves outside the global economies, it truly is game over for global domination by a lone or an alliance of superpowers.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Auburn University philosophy professor Roderick Long coined the term “conflationism” for the tendency to confuse the free market — whether in accusatory or apologetic polemics — with actually existing capitalism. Left-conflationism is the practice of attacking the evils of actually existing corporate capitalism as if they were the result of “laissez-faire” or the “free market.” Right-conflationism is the mirror-image defense of the status quo, as if “the imagined virtues of the imaginary freed market constitute a justification for the reality of existing corporatist capitalism” — that is, cloaking the defense of corporatism in “free market rhetoric.”
The January 21 issue of The Economist, which is dedicated to the theme of “State Capitalism,” is a stellar example of right-conflationism. The writers equate “State Capitalism” to some degree of state ownership and/or control of business firms competing in the marketplace, or to what used to be called “industrial policy” (i.e. government directing investment funds to those it regards as economic “winners”).
State Capitalism includes the Chinese model, in which the state organizes the Chinese equivalent of vertically integrated zaibatsu and reserves a major share of seats in senior management for government officials; Russian-style kleptocratic or oligarchical capitalism; and the petrostate State Capitalism in which the state directs petrodollars into state-favored development projects.
Such forms of “state-directed capitalism,” of course, are contrasted with the wholesome Anglo-American model of “liberal capitalism.” You know — what Mitt Romney calls “Our Free Enterprise System.” The ’80s and ’90s, it seems, were an era of “free market triumphalism” under the Great Helmsmen Thatcher and Reagan.
Well, not quite. So-called “liberal capitalism” has its own “reserved chairs,” it seems — for former corporate management as political appointees in federal agencies, and for former regulatory officials in the senior management of large corporations. Anyone who’s seen the recent virally circulated Venn diagrams of the personnel overlap between Monsanto and USDA personnel, or Pfizer and FDA, will immediately know what I’m talking about. And US President Barack Obama — that “socialist” fan of Saul Alinsky we hear so much about — certainly seems to have reserved a lot of seats in his Cabinet for former Goldman-Sachs and Monsanto higher-ups.
I wonder what the writers at The Economist think of a model of “liberal capitalism” in which international “Intellectual Property” accords are drafted in secrecy by representatives of the Motion Picture Association of America and Recording Industry Association of America, and only afterward offered for review to other “civil society organizations.” Or in which MPAA chief Chris Dodd proudly announces that the Stop Online Piracy Act was drafted in a “democratic process” in which “all the major stakeholders” had seats at the table (“all the major stakeholders” apparently consisting of the music, movie and software companies).
I wonder what they think of a transnational corporate economy in which the major “Western liberal capitalist” players are dependent on direct state subsidies, state-enforced “intellectual property” monopolies, or both for their profits.
Think about it. First, you have firms directly plugged in to the military-industrial and security-industrial complexes, with the DOD or TSA as their primary customers. You have the electronics industry, whose R&D was primarily government-funded throughout the Cold War, and which is protected from global competition by the drastic expansion of patent protections under the TRIPS accord. You have the biotech and pharmaceutical industries, at least half of whose research is taxpayer-funded and which are heavily dependent on government patent enforcement for their monopoly profits and market shares. And you have corporate agribusiness — ’nuff said.
Subtract all this, and what do you have left? A model of capitalism in which the commanding heights of the economy are an interlocking directorate of large corporations and government agencies, a major share of the total operating costs of the dominant firms are socialized (and profits privatized, of course), and “intellectual property” protectionism and other regulatory cartels allow bureaucratic corporate dinosaurs like something out of Terry Gilliam’s Brazil to operate profitably without fear of competition.
Some “liberal capitalism.” Capitalist? Sure. Liberal? Not so much.

"American Exceptionalism;" or, It's Not State Capitalism When America Does It
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
To paraphrase the assessment of libertarian socialist Rosa Luxemburg a century ago, we face an imminent choice between freedom and barbarism. There are only two possible outcomes in the present struggle between the authoritarian institutions of state and corporation, and the emergent society of self-organized networks and other voluntary associations of free people:
The state will fail, and be replaced by a society in which people are free to pool their cooperative labor and skills as they see fit, and to exchange the products of their labor with their equals.
Or, the state will succeed — and create a technofascist empire that reduces humanity to serfdom and takes the biosphere down in flames. Now that the conflict is fairly begun, there is no going back to the status quo ante.
Vinay Gupta, whose many hats include specialist in security issues, argues that the passage of NDAA (with its provisions for indefinite detention without trial) and the shutdown of Megaupload without due process of law signal the emergence of the US as a full-blown fascist state.
And he suggests the possibility that, as governments implode in the face of networked resistance movements in countries like Spain and Greece, free information havens emerge in places like Iceland, and one domino after another in the global South begins to secede from the neoliberal order, the United States will become embroiled in a desperate World War of counterinsurgency, using air strikes, blockades, cyberwar, black ops, hunter-killer drones, and crowd-control technologies to suppress the emerging free order. The street fighting between riot cops and Occupy protesters was just a dress rehearsal, as Spain was for WWII.
Even if it comes to this, I believe the state — and the cluster of authoritarian institutions of which it is the core — will fail.
Because local nodes in self-organized networks are free to take action or innovate without waiting for permission from an administrative apparatus, and every other node in the network is similarly free to learn by example and adopt the innovations without permission, they fully exploit agility advantages of networked communications in ways that authoritarian hierarchies are unequipped to.
We saw this recently with the development of Firefox’s DeSopa circumvention utility before SOPA even came up for a vote, and Anonymous’s massive same-day DDOS attack in response to a federal takedown of MegaUpload that had been months in the planning. Last summer Tor developers released a workaround the very same day Iranian authorities thought they’d shut down the encrypted router network.
Other examples of this agility include the lightning spread of the Arab Spring across the Middle East and into Europe, and the mushroom global proliferation of Occupy camps to hundreds of cities in a matter of days. These networked movements react almost instantaneously to police repression in any one place. Local and national governments are typically so blindsided by the scale of resistance in their own domains, they’re able to offer little if anything in the way of support to other regimes falling victim to the same full-court press. The phrase “Two, three, many Vietnams” comes to mind.
The resistance is further aided by conflict between states, as the advantage shifts from hierarchies to networks. The hegemonic American state’s attempt to suppress networked uprisings comes up against a growing anti-American coalition of smaller states provoked by the Empire’s dominance. The technological advantage accruing to asymmetric warfare means even small states can develop effective hacks against American technologies of global domination, at comparatively little cost. Witness the American security state’s recent obsession with cheap “Assassin’s Mace” and “area denial” weapons that threaten its power projection capability.
As Gupta argues, the fundamentally evil nature of the American state’s counter-insurgency agenda results in cognitive dissonance among the rulers, as many soldiers and police become demoralized from an inability to face the truth of their missions, internal functionaries of the state (like Bradley Manning) become disaffected by the disjuncture between official propaganda and the testimony of their own eyes, and domestic populations’ access to unofficial news and streaming video undermines the official narrative. Because of this, the state leadership cannot trust the motives of its soldiers and other functionaries, or give them the full autonomy and the unfiltered knowledge of reality that effective networked warfare requires.
As Julian Assange points out, when authoritarian hierarchies are attacked from outside they respond by becoming more brittle and internally opaque to themselves.
The combination of networks’ quick adaptation to changing situations with hierarchies’ demoralization and internal opacity means networks generally stay inside what strategist John Boyd called the “OODA loop” of hierarchies: That is, they keep the enemy permanently off-balance, and repeatedly force them to react to situations instead of creating them.
In the long run, it’s no contest.

Why the State Will Fail
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Okay ... I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Essentially, you do not like competition in the marketplace.

I've never considered this before ... I'll mull over your point of view for a couple of days before responding.

I've never considered this before ... hmmmm.
Where is the competition? Deregulation did infact create a free for all in the transportation, and where has it led us? The full cycle has led to even less competition and much of that now teetering on extinction (Yellow/Roadway). Regional carriers and LTL's have been bought up (Watkins, Overnite, American, etc.). Banks have seen the same cycle. And this is somehow desirable.

But then we have the stipulation that, "Well, it's not a true free market." Fair enough. But that's the hesitation I have with the Libertarian point of view. It seems so entirely based on perfect conditions and all the players lining up and behaving nicely. Supposedly the free market cures all this, but when? Again, claiming less regulation is what we need (after the banking fiasco we've witnessed) seems a very tough sell. And it's only fair to ask how we can expect Libertarian principles to look in a less than perfect setting. Will Libertarians tend to side over and over with the corporations that fund their elections? Or would Libertarians push through massive election reform?
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
There is less chance of an actual free market than a Libertarian getting elected President ... much less.
You are basically saying you will never be satisfied unless there is a perfect system ... there has never been a perfect system in the last 15 billion years and never will be in the future.

I'll stick to my observation that you don't like competition in the marketplace since a perfect system will never exist.
I'm still mulling over "hatred of competition" as a political viewpoint.
I'll get back to you.

You're right, a perfect system will never exist. But neither will a Libertarian political system, because it requires a much different market than the one we have now. I don't hate competition, just unfair competition, and "hatred of competition" isn't my political viewpoint.

I love to hear Libertarians banter about the "perfection" of the market mechanism while they simultaneously support Republican pro-business policies that actually make it less free. Every time some company gets a tax dodge or a subsidy, the market gets more restrictive, and it makes it increasingly difficult for competitors to sell whatever it is they are offering.

What if I had a pile of money from a bunch of my venture capitalist buddies and wanted to start-up a hypothetical overnight delivery company called Confederate Express? Given Mr Smith's special deals, the barriers to entry would be prohibitive, and our company would fail. If he didn't have all of those advantages, my company could offer a competitive service at possibly lower prices. This would benefit shippers and provide new jobs. I'd also have to buy new airplanes and thousands of vehicles, further pumping money into the economy. Maybe UPS and FedEx would lose market share and have to lay people off, but the new jobs my company created would fill the void. Market forces would balance it all out.

That would be the "free market" working the way it's supposed to.
 
Top