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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 1149946" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>OK, on the same grounds of putting our troops in danger, why are you not calling for Bob Woodward's head or better yet, the heads of the inside Washington sources who "purposely" leaking him even more secretive information? But those leaks were from within the power structure for political purposes, most likely from either the Pentagon or intelligence sources and yet you seem so fixated on Bradley Manning. </p><p></p><p>What about Leon Panetta who reports are circulating that he as CIA director leaked classified information to the makers of the Zero Dark Thirty film so where is the outrage? There is none because that film allows you to glory in all that is America at it's best, killing people because we sure as hell don't make or produce anything else of value anymore. Thank you democrats/republicans/liberals/conservatives equally for that fact.</p><p></p><p>And to my earlier point, yes, we were lied into a war in which our young men and women lost their lives, suffered horrible injuries and the mental scares are now rearing their ugly heads. If our cause was so damn noble and righteous, why are these brave men and women having such nightmares? To the point that suicide seems the only answer to stop them? Manning's disclosures if anything exposed the truth of the meat grinder these good folks were thrown into but sadly you've yet to wrap your head around the truth that <u><strong>War itself is welfare for the rich and evil!</strong></u> It's been the largest means of wealth redistribution and yet it is you who support it. So much for calling them democrats bad names eh?</p><p></p><p>As for the alleged "harm" to lives that Manning is suppose to have wrought, this suggests you just submit to an appeal to authority and blanket accept the claims as proven without any question when in fact this is in process as we speak. It's called a trial. BTW: Do you think the gov't is lying about Benghazi? So why now are they telling the truth with Manning? But the prosecution has one advantage in that in this trial, they do not have to prove that Manning's actions caused harm but only that Manning believed they would cause harm. So in the end we may not know of any actual harms that did take place but only that Manning believed them to be and that is still problematic to the actual effects on the ground. But then if you can't prove an actual harm in the first place, thought crimes can serve your purpose.</p><p></p><p>Manning exposed actions that are war crimes and thus showed the efforts to hide them. Some give <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marjorie-cohn/bradley-mannings-legal-du_b_3390416.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff0000">the argument</span></a> that in doing what he did, he was in fact following the law. But more important to me is the simple fact that person(s) in the employ of the State will and do lie in order to hide the facts that other self interests are being served other than what the public is told. That is a fact Jack! </p><p></p><p>And on that fact, with the gov't on the sly searching everyone's phone, email and internet records proves the paranoia of the State and it's the liar who tends to be the most paranoid because he/she has the most to hide and it's called the truth and whoever exposes it also exposes the liar. Therefore using the means of fear in suppressing truth tellers becomes a primacy action. So until the State and it's hooligans, uniformed or not show me reason why they are not lying, I see no reason to believe or trust them.</p><p></p><p>Manning did break his contractual agreement to remain silent on some level and he will have to pay for that and more than likely he will as he's plead guilty to some of the charges. No beef from me on that. I don't see Manning walking out a free man after this trial on the basis of contractual breech but in the fact that he threw mud in the face of the American Empire so to speak, I LOVE IT AND WANT SOME MORE OF IT! Whistleblowers are speaking out and thus the reason the Obama administration has gone into overdrive combatting it. Go read about former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds or former Dept. of Homeland Security employee Julia Davis and her husband BJ who exposed the open doors at our biggest border crossing. If you dare you'll begin to see an obvious pattern.</p><p></p><p>The information Manning had access too was also accessible to well over a million other people in gov't as well. I saw one figure that said the number of people with access to this information would make up the population of South Dakota and I think the other state was Delaware so with that many eyes with access, just how super secret was this information in the first place? A recent piece in the Guardian suggested much of this information may well have already been outed (those inside the beltway anonymous sources again) and that Manning also believed much of it was in the public domain already. The trial may prove this so and it bares watching for.</p><p></p><p>But with all those eyes, you don't think people in those positions didn't talk or also wrongly releases information or release for political objectives within Washington itself? The State as well as the Security State has become massively too big. It needs to be knocked down in size by a long way (if me I'd eliminate the CIA and NSA completely) and if it takes more Manning's to do so, then I welcome their courage and convictions. This gov't is not what it started out as so IMO it is they who have already been the ones to commit treason from original intent so to speak and therefore.............. Unlike you Brett, I really do want a lot less gov't and have never shied from saying so either.</p><p></p><p>If there really was truth and justice in our world, instead of the Manning trial, we'd be talking about the War Crimes trial of both the Bush and the Obama administration that might well cause a cascade effect to re-examine the Clinton, Bush 1, Reagan and even the Carter Presidency if not further back. Sad to say I won't be around in the years ahead when America as we know it will be a mere memory but like the brutality of Rome, I hope the historians of that time will also expose what we were as well. Future societies will rightly question why we fought the Soviets and the Nazis in the 20th century unless it was to just eliminate the competition.</p><p></p><p>And again, unlike you Brett, I don't play the false choices of the partisan politics bullschitt game. Poison is Poison!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 1149946, member: 2189"] OK, on the same grounds of putting our troops in danger, why are you not calling for Bob Woodward's head or better yet, the heads of the inside Washington sources who "purposely" leaking him even more secretive information? But those leaks were from within the power structure for political purposes, most likely from either the Pentagon or intelligence sources and yet you seem so fixated on Bradley Manning. What about Leon Panetta who reports are circulating that he as CIA director leaked classified information to the makers of the Zero Dark Thirty film so where is the outrage? There is none because that film allows you to glory in all that is America at it's best, killing people because we sure as hell don't make or produce anything else of value anymore. Thank you democrats/republicans/liberals/conservatives equally for that fact. And to my earlier point, yes, we were lied into a war in which our young men and women lost their lives, suffered horrible injuries and the mental scares are now rearing their ugly heads. If our cause was so damn noble and righteous, why are these brave men and women having such nightmares? To the point that suicide seems the only answer to stop them? Manning's disclosures if anything exposed the truth of the meat grinder these good folks were thrown into but sadly you've yet to wrap your head around the truth that [U][B]War itself is welfare for the rich and evil![/B][/U] It's been the largest means of wealth redistribution and yet it is you who support it. So much for calling them democrats bad names eh? As for the alleged "harm" to lives that Manning is suppose to have wrought, this suggests you just submit to an appeal to authority and blanket accept the claims as proven without any question when in fact this is in process as we speak. It's called a trial. BTW: Do you think the gov't is lying about Benghazi? So why now are they telling the truth with Manning? But the prosecution has one advantage in that in this trial, they do not have to prove that Manning's actions caused harm but only that Manning believed they would cause harm. So in the end we may not know of any actual harms that did take place but only that Manning believed them to be and that is still problematic to the actual effects on the ground. But then if you can't prove an actual harm in the first place, thought crimes can serve your purpose. Manning exposed actions that are war crimes and thus showed the efforts to hide them. Some give [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marjorie-cohn/bradley-mannings-legal-du_b_3390416.html"][COLOR=#ff0000]the argument[/COLOR][/URL] that in doing what he did, he was in fact following the law. But more important to me is the simple fact that person(s) in the employ of the State will and do lie in order to hide the facts that other self interests are being served other than what the public is told. That is a fact Jack! And on that fact, with the gov't on the sly searching everyone's phone, email and internet records proves the paranoia of the State and it's the liar who tends to be the most paranoid because he/she has the most to hide and it's called the truth and whoever exposes it also exposes the liar. Therefore using the means of fear in suppressing truth tellers becomes a primacy action. So until the State and it's hooligans, uniformed or not show me reason why they are not lying, I see no reason to believe or trust them. Manning did break his contractual agreement to remain silent on some level and he will have to pay for that and more than likely he will as he's plead guilty to some of the charges. No beef from me on that. I don't see Manning walking out a free man after this trial on the basis of contractual breech but in the fact that he threw mud in the face of the American Empire so to speak, I LOVE IT AND WANT SOME MORE OF IT! Whistleblowers are speaking out and thus the reason the Obama administration has gone into overdrive combatting it. Go read about former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds or former Dept. of Homeland Security employee Julia Davis and her husband BJ who exposed the open doors at our biggest border crossing. If you dare you'll begin to see an obvious pattern. The information Manning had access too was also accessible to well over a million other people in gov't as well. I saw one figure that said the number of people with access to this information would make up the population of South Dakota and I think the other state was Delaware so with that many eyes with access, just how super secret was this information in the first place? A recent piece in the Guardian suggested much of this information may well have already been outed (those inside the beltway anonymous sources again) and that Manning also believed much of it was in the public domain already. The trial may prove this so and it bares watching for. But with all those eyes, you don't think people in those positions didn't talk or also wrongly releases information or release for political objectives within Washington itself? The State as well as the Security State has become massively too big. It needs to be knocked down in size by a long way (if me I'd eliminate the CIA and NSA completely) and if it takes more Manning's to do so, then I welcome their courage and convictions. This gov't is not what it started out as so IMO it is they who have already been the ones to commit treason from original intent so to speak and therefore.............. Unlike you Brett, I really do want a lot less gov't and have never shied from saying so either. If there really was truth and justice in our world, instead of the Manning trial, we'd be talking about the War Crimes trial of both the Bush and the Obama administration that might well cause a cascade effect to re-examine the Clinton, Bush 1, Reagan and even the Carter Presidency if not further back. Sad to say I won't be around in the years ahead when America as we know it will be a mere memory but like the brutality of Rome, I hope the historians of that time will also expose what we were as well. Future societies will rightly question why we fought the Soviets and the Nazis in the 20th century unless it was to just eliminate the competition. And again, unlike you Brett, I don't play the false choices of the partisan politics bullschitt game. Poison is Poison! [/QUOTE]
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