The Euro death watch

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by brett636, May 30, 2012.

  1. brett636

    brett636 Well-Known Member

    Biggest Greek bank warns of dire euro exit fallout | Reuters
    FOREX-Euro falls near 2-year low as debt crisis widens | Reuters
    Crude Plunges as Euro Crisis Deepens - WSJ.com

    Well it seems those crazy socialist Europeans are about to be the victim of their own ideology. Socialism only works so long as you have other people's money to play with. As soon as the spending exceeds income by a sufficient amount the realities of the mathematics in these situations can no longer be ignored. You cannot spend your way into prosperity, and by enacting expensive government programs which allow the masses to fore go the responsibilities they have to themselves and their families only makes the situation worse when you have to take them away. Hopefully a large number of the American electorate is paying attention and will realize that we are currently on the same path as the Europeans, only they are further down the road.
     
  2. Brownslave688

    Brownslave688 You want a toe? I can get you a toe.

    We are a lot closer than people want to think or admit.
     
  3. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

  4. UpstateNYUPSer

    UpstateNYUPSer Very proud grandfather.

  5. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    Brett's post was about socialist Europeans........socialist? You're right, socialist has nothing to do with socialist.......how do you think they creep in??
     
  6. UpstateNYUPSer

    UpstateNYUPSer Very proud grandfather.

    Brett's post was about how socialism is about to bankrupt Europe and Brownslave followed up with his thought that we in America are closer to socialism that they may think. These were both comments about the economy, not the work Dolores Huerta did with Cesar Chavez.
     
  7. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    My comment WAS NOT about her work with Mr. Lettuce. MY comment was about her being the head of the largest socialist group in USA. That was Brett's subject....socialism.... and that was my topic too. Quit nitpicking. I was on topic.

    The president pinning medals on socialists is a foot in the door and a sign of acceptance by the leader. Mind your own business. It's a mod's job to tell me if I'm off topic. You are not a mod.
     
  8. The Euro/US dollar and on and on currency death watch.

    If banks fail in the EU that will be spreading over here too, that's why the bank(st)ers don't want Greece to leave the euro, a tiny country/economy and banks can't/don't want to take a full haircut and just let the "global market" sort it out.
    IMO Europe and any other countries are the same cake as the USA or capitalism, socialism, whatever structure doesn't make a difference when in the end it's the debt base monetary policy that is the same.
    The big difference that we have the FED to print and monetize, a AAA rating LOL for that and the world's reserve currency, Greece didn't get that lucky, orders are coming from Brussels...
    In the end every single country goes bankrupt. All that talk about Greece while the UK has it's 1000% debt ratio with their own central bank to print and monetize or Japan, nobody seems to panic there...
    A few chart tells all. But let the status quo continue like nothing is going on.
    global debt.jpgWorld debt to GDP.jpgGross levreaging.jpg

    I like this video what Bill Hicks says on the economy:
    {viewer discretion is advised}
    Bill Hicks - The Economy That's Fake Anyway (Clip from Zeitgeist Addendum) - YouTube
    global debt.jpgWorld debt to GDP.jpgGross levreaging.jpg
     
  9. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    Yes. Why is the right so smugly thinking that th demise of the socialists will not have horrible costs here? Have we forgotten the "world" economy we live in?
     
  10. brett636

    brett636 Well-Known Member

    Believe me, there is no smugness involved. I do not take joy in people losing their livelihoods, reducing their standard of living, and having their world turned upside down. I am simply giving recognition to the one and only logical conclusion when the socialist ideology is applied to a country or group of countries in the case of the Euro. When governments start providing the basic necessities of the people it doesn't stop there. Politicians realize that they have to promise and provide more in order to remain in power. The people continue to vote in these politicians who do just that only they lose any regard for the future financial stability of their government. Eventually they over promise and they(politicians) can't come up with the financing to meet their obligations and the entire system collapses as we are witnessing now in the Eurozone. The basic math of having more money going out than coming in eventually comes back to terrorize those who ignore it. A lesson I sense you just cannot grasp.
     
  11. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    We actually agree, brett, and perhaps that is something you just cannot grasp. Whatever our financial obligations are, whether you agree with them or not, we still owe them. We still have wars to pay for. We still have the stimulus to pay for. The basic math is that the Bush/Obama tax cuts are going to have to expire because the "basic math of having more money going out than coming in eventually comes back to terrorize those who ignore it." We can change our future obligations, but that does litttle to fix what is broken now. Paul Ryan may have it partly right, and Simpson/Bowles probably has it absolutely correct. Unfortunately, none of it probably matters if the European economy fails completely.
     
  12. Sorry I am from EU and strongly disagree. WE here in the US have a FED to print "money", kicking the can down on the road, the Greeks don't have that.
    If you change the words socialist to capitalist and the EU to the USA it's exactly the same situation to me. Unfounded liabilities busting through $ 120 trillion now, as you said politicians promise everything to get into office and it's doesn't work like that only in the EU. :D
    I am in no way favoring socialism, but they have rules to follow which come from other headquarters than their own country. It's like China tells us how much we can spend or get spanked. Right now we party but soon the party is over, no hangover yet as the Greeks have it now. And the Greeks can thank Goldman Sachs for fudging their numbers to get into the EU(cheat the rules), now Goldman and other banks are raping them.
    Take a look at our debt, we beat the EU by a long mile, I don't know but I don't think it's a sane number to have $ 692 000 debt per family. All countries in the west in the same shoe...
    U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
     
  13. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    All of what you say can be true and not matter one bit. World economy, baby. We are invested in Europe. No running away from it. What if those markets suddenly end or hit a deep depression? How many jobs does that cost here? Your focus is on a future that can't be seen because everything is going to change monumentally if the EU fails. The Federal Reserve has nothing to do in this scenario.
     
  14. You are right. I am just pointing out to brett636 that it's a dreamworld that the USA is in any better shape if it comes to pointing fingers on those "socialists". I just want to see the dominoes fall or unveil what's the deal, because this kicking the can can't go on forever...
     
  15. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    My bad. We do agree.:)
     
  16. klein

    klein Für Meno :)

    You guys have no clue, if you want really socialisum, it's in Scandavia (if you have no clue what that means), it's countries Norway, Finnland, Sweden and even Denmark.
    They have free day care, free healthcare, free education and much more (it's not free - they are almost taxed to death).
    But they are wealthy, and together they own just as much US debt as the Chinese.
    Besides that, they are the best places to live in the world (according to the UN), and are basically debt free.

    How come are they doing so well ?
     
  17. brett636

    brett636 Well-Known Member

    We may agree on the basic principle that excessive debt for our country is bad, but where we part is where most of the debt has come from and what is necessary to reverse course. You bring up the wars, the bush tax cuts, and the stimulus. First off the wars have cost a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things are a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of social entitlement programs such as medicare, medicaid, and social security. Those three programs alone nearly cost as much per year as we have spent on both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars to date. Even the CBO admits the Bush tax cuts have helped to reduce the deficit, and the stimulus is credited to Obama of which we have yet to see any real results from. You are picking out the smallest parts of the equation here and pointing to them as if they are most of the problem. The bottom line is our government spends too much and has over promised too much. We can't grow our way out of it, we can't tax our way out of it, we can only reform and cut our way out of it, and to date I just don't see the political will among either Republicans or Democrats to do what is necessary to fix the problem.

    I would also like to point out that whining about the collapse of the European economy is not going to fix the problem as it cannot be fixed. The European people have stated they don't want it fixed, they want total destruction of their economies and societies by voting in extreme leftists to finish off what is left of their nations credibility. It cannot be stopped and our best course of action is to brace for whatever bad economic news we have heading our way.

    Perhaps that tin foil hat of yours slid down over your eyes and you couldn't read where I stated that we are on the same path as the EU, only not so far down the road. Yes the fed is printing money and keeping interest rates artificially low in order to put a band aid on the situation, but that only works for so long. Eventually we will have to face the music with our current economic and monetary policies, but unlike the EU we have not reached the cliff yet. Unlike the EU the voting public in the U.S. has an opportunity to reverse course by putting the right people into elected office who want to fix the problem rather than let it continue to fester. If we re elect Barack Obama I predict sometime during his 2nd term we will be in the same boat the EU is in today. Putting Romney in power along with a few more Tea party republicans in elected office greatly increases the chances that we will turn things around. I realize its not guaranteed, but its certainly better than allowing things to continue as they are.

    When the EU collapses they won't be doing so well, so your question is moot.
     
  18. klein

    klein Für Meno :)

    What differnce would that really make ?
    Back to French Francs, German Marks, and Greece Drachmas, Italian Liras, etc. ?

    I suppose Germany isn't a socilaist country, besides having healthcare for everyone and 6 weeks paid vacation from day 1 you start, right ?
     
  19. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    Brett, Simpson/Bowles includes entitlement reform. Not only can we not tax and grow ourselves out of the hole, we can't cut our way out of it either. It will take all of the above, a fact that only. The right has refused to face.