the incident at indy

[over9five]

Did the shifter driver get any flack over this? Sounds like maybe she didn't give it a quick pull against the trailer brakes to make sure it was coupled good?

Just asking. I am in no position to judge fault here.


" (for disputed reasons)"

Would the OP care to clarify?

 

[drewed]

Jon I see what youre saying with the tipping, but with the front corner down, one side of the landing gear and everything shifting forward more weight it put on the front landing gear which could have lead to tipping and the forward tire on the down side would be supporting more weight then it was meant to and could blow causing it to tip....
But its not really here nor there employees as a whole did what they percieved as an unsafe act, management directed them to do it, a steward allowed them to do it. Thats the problem with it.

 

[City Driver]

im gonna ignore jon frum cuz he obviously sits at a desk in a suit and tie all day

a pup can tip.....when landing gear is extremely damaged, even after they pick the trailer up its not gonna sit level at all....its dangerous

and like i said then they backed it into the dock and put jacks under it to keep it up, opening it up exposing all of us to the hazards of the trailer

Did the shifter driver get any flack over this? Sounds like maybe she didn't give it a quick pull against the trailer brakes to make sure it was coupled good?

Just asking. I am in no position to judge fault here.


" (for disputed reasons)"

Would the OP care to clarify?

well drewed its been disputed a little bit but it seems like she wasnt at fault....she was a driver for a long time and knows what shes doin, but i know we all make mistakes

at the meeting that same day she got in front of us all and basically gave a speech saying somethin along these lines-

"i just wanna clear something up....none of it was my fault i backed into the trailer and pulled foward a few feet to check the coupling and it held.....then she hooked up the air and lights and lifted it (hydraulic 5th wheel) and when she made her cut the spring that controls the locking jaws on the 5th wheel broke causing the trailer to fall off"

and the yard tractor was in the shop for a while after that, i dont doubt her story at all....i also wonder if after it fell off she had time to stop the tractor before she tore the glad hands or anything like that

 

[bluehdmc]

I

First, I doubt it's even possible for a pup to tip over. It's not far off the ground to begin with, and the rear wheels tend to keep it from tipping. If it didn't tip during the first few minutes due to top-heavy shifting contents, then it isn't going to tip.

Pups do flip over, driver flipped one in a North Jersey yard a few years ago. It was loaded with paper, was the kite and he was making a u-turn. This is the problem with using percentages rather than weight of trailers. You can have 100 % of styrofoam in 1 trailer and the other one loaded with nuts and bolts or paper to 50%. That wasn't the case in this incident though. The load could have shifted before the forklifts were used to stabilize it though and caused the trailer to flip.
I believe if there is any substantial amount of spillage (more than a couple of gallons, not sure of the exact amount) the EPA is supposed to be notified. Usually it seems if they are notified there is a spill, there is a fine, if they are not notified and they find out afterwards there is a fine for the spill and another fine for not notifying them.

Of course the American business model seems to be lets try to clean up/cover up before anyone finds out.

 

[pickup]

i'm just curious, does ups freight double stack skids.? and if so did they do it in this case? (I Have seen doozies in my lifetime.)

 

[local804]

http://www.browncafe.com/community/threads/safety-compliance.214233/

 

[gandydancer]

... if a trailer is supported at three corners, by both rear tires and the other front leg, how can it tip on its side?...

If it were on two tires and a leg it would be horizontal. It was on one tire, a leg, and a corner, and with part of the leg structure collapsed there was no assurance the rest of it was going to hold up. Also the contents were breaking through the walls of the trailer and there was no assurance that the wall would hold either. Inexperienced people -- management -- who weren't structural engineers took risks without calculation. And that's a fact.

... Apartment dwellers shouldn't fight a "massive" fire, but they should fight a small fire. That's why there are fire extinguishers mounted on the walls...

At UPS the fire extinguishers are just to meet code. In the event of a fire company policy is that you can be fired for fighting it.

 

[pickup]

http://www.browncafe.com/community/threads/safety-compliance.214233/

a picture is worth a thousand words, good post , local 804.

 

[JonFrum]

Pups do flip over, driver flipped one in a North Jersey yard a few years ago. It was loaded with paper, was the kite and he was making a u-turn. This is the problem with using percentages rather than weight of trailers. You can have 100 % of styrofoam in 1 trailer and the other one loaded with nuts and bolts or paper to 50%. That wasn't the case in this incident though. The load could have shifted before the forklifts were used to stabilize it though and caused the trailer to flip. . . .

Your North Jersey incident is what I'm talking about. If the pup's load is not balanced, if the pup is in motion, if the pup is the rear unit on a set of doubles, and especially if the driver is making a U-turn, then yes, the kite could flip. Like you say, that wasn't the case here.

Interesting to hear of one flipping though as I sometimes watch as drivers do fast, tight U-turns in the yard to test their rig, and wonder if they realize the "crack-the-whip" force they are applying to the kite.

 

[JonFrum]

If it were on two tires and a leg it would be horizontal. It was on one tire, a leg, and a corner, and with part of the leg structure collapsed there was no assurance the rest of it was going to hold up. Also the contents were breaking through the walls of the trailer and there was no assurance that the wall would hold either. Inexperienced people -- management -- who weren't structural engineers took risks without calculation. And that's a fact.

But City Driver said, ". . . the trailer was resting on the wheels like normal, and the corner of the bottom of the trailer . . ." (I took him to mean all wheels were either touching the ground or very close, and the suspension was getting a major workout.)

At UPS the fire extinguishers are just to meet code. In the event of a fire company policy is that you can be fired for fighting it.

City Driver's example referred to "the tenants of an apartment complex." But if you want to switch topic and talk about UPS, fine. Can you post a copy of the policy you cite?

UPS probably is of two minds. They want everyone to evacuate immediately. But I'm sure they would also want the fire put out with an extinguisher if that can still be done safely. An extinguished fire is better than a building in flames waiting on the Fire Department's arrival.

I've seen mechanics casually extinguish grease fires in the shop with fire extinguishers and then go about their business.

Do you know the UPS policy concerning drivers using fire extinguishers located in the vehicles they drive? Do you believe UPS will fire them too?

If all fire extinguishers are "just for show," shouldn't OSHA, the Fire Department, Liberty Mutual, and the Safety Comittee look into this?

 

[buni g]

Anyway, I'm wondering if most Frieght drivers have HazMat endorsements on their liscense, have placards on their trailors, and is it common to carry that much hazmats in one trailer ?[/quote]



i believe it is a requirement to have haz mat endorsement to drive for ups freight, i have one. common, i don't know but it is not unheard of. placards are supposed to be applied to trlr when applicable ASAP whether it be against the dock or parked in the yard somewhere, private property or not. in regards to OP if this trlr contained POISON it was NOT very smart, but it is what it is, fortunately every thing turned out ok but.... poison i would have been nowhere near that trlr

 

[buni g]

I think I may agree with Braveheart on this one. Lets call Osha and Atlanta on this one. The management team and those six who supported the cover up all need to be fired for endangering the general public.

you are being sarcastic right?

 

[pickup]

Anyway, I'm wondering if most Frieght drivers have HazMat endorsements on their liscense, have placards on their trailors, and is it common to carry that much hazmats in one trailer ?

i believe it is a requirement to have haz mat endorsement to drive for ups freight, i have one. common, i don't know but it is not unheard of. placards are supposed to be applied to trlr when applicable ASAP whether it be against the dock or parked in the yard somewhere, private property or not. in regards to OP if this trlr contained POISON it was NOT very smart, but it is what it is, fortunately every thing turned out ok but.... poison i would have been nowhere near that trlr [/QUOTE]


you've touched upon a gray area when it comes to private property. I believe on private property that d.o.t rules don't apply. For example, most shifters on ups property don't have license plates (the ones that do have them is so they can take something into an adjacent yard but have to go on a public street to access that yard) D.O.T. rules state you gotta have a license plate but apparently not on private property you don't which means d.o.t rules don't apply. So the placarding is not ASAP in my opinion. If they did apply, that would imply also that the yard jockey would have to have the manifest in his possession while he moved the trailer. (I doubt that happens as well). Just my opinion. I tried researching this a little but it seems there is nothing in the regulation books I am looking at that addresses this so I am relying on what I have seen and heard .

I know of a tank trailer wash (food grade and some hazmat) that has illegal mexicans as their yard jockeys.( hence no licenses and no hazmat endorsement with no plates on shifters.) Once in a while they go on the public street and a lot of times they cops catch them. but the cops can't touch them on their private property.

 

[drewed]

Shifters arent required to hold a CDL correct?

 

[City Driver]

Shifters arent required to hold a CDL correct?

the way it works here is, to have a BID to be a full time yard jockey you must have a CDL with all endorsements....but to be a dockworker with no CDL and go out in the yard every once in a while to fill in is ok

by the way, when i said the wheels were on the ground like normal, that was a terrible choice of words.....2 wheels were on the ground like normal, the other 2 were in the air

and it was being held partly by the broken landing gear still, the whole thign was a mess if you saw the trailer you would know it could of easily tipped

ill try to get those pictures that dockworker took

 

[dragracer66]

if you didnt hear about it, you should of

at our ups freight terminal, it was about 2 weeks ago when management put workers lives at risk to save a couple bucks

a yard jockey started to pull out a loaded pup from a door...after she made her cut, the trailer fell off (for disputed reasons)....the landing gear was really torn up and the trailer was leaning at like a 45 degree angle BARELY staying up....so they put another trailer next to it so if it fell it would fall into the other trailer and stay up

this trailer had 15,000 lbs of poison and 5,000 lbs of flammable liquids...very dangerous situation

did they call a wrecker? no
did they call a hazmat team? no

who did they call? 6 dockworkers and 1 yard jockey all on forklifts....the yard jockey is also a stuard

they move the 2nd trailer that was being used to block it in case it fell, had 4 forklifts pick it up and 3 more on the other side to hold the forks up and keep it from tipping back over to the other side

this whole situation was handled in the worst way possible....there was hazmat drums breaking through the side trailer wall

i wasnt out there but i watched almost the whole thing from the dock

there was a dock superviser and the dock manager out there to tell everybody what to do

i talked to some of the dockworkers and they said it was pretty scary being underneath a trailer that was ready to tip over on them

i know they could of refused to do it, and i would of refused to.....but still, this whole thing was crazy

then to top it all off they back the trailer into the dock and open it up...much of the hazmat was spilled obviously and hazmat trailers that are believed to have leaks or damage should be closed up and kept away from workers


thats the end of my rant

Wow.... Its always funny to hear about "supposed" problems over at UPS frieght. That just sounds like a typical day at big brown to me!!!! I think they did the right thing. By the time you call for a hook and the time it takes to get it there it could have been a bigger problem. I'm not saying what they did is safe or smart but it sounds like they acted quickly to avoid a more serious problem.....

 

[over9five]

At UPS the fire extinguishers are just to meet code. In the event of a fire company policy is that you can be fired for fighting it.

1. I have been told of the policy that we are not to use fire extinguishers.

2. I have used my extinguisher on-road to put out a battery fire.

3. My dept once gave a driver an award for putting out a car fire with his tractors extinguisher.


You do what you think is right. I'd like to hear of a case where someone got fired for using a fire extinguisher. I don't think it will ever happen.

 

[tieguy]

you are being sarcastic right?

I am. At the same time I was making a point. I have seen people make the phone calls to the government agency thinking only management would suffer the consequences.

 

[JonFrum]

Jon I see what youre saying with the tipping, but with the front corner down, one side of the landing gear and everything shifting forward more weight it put on the front landing gear which could have lead to tipping and the forward tire on the down side would be supporting more weight then it was meant to and could blow causing it to tip.....

Drewed, It's very unlikely the tire would blow. Normally trailers are raised up by shifters as they drive around the yard. Almost all the weight is on the rear tires. And as I said above, we use to have drop-frame ("W") pups that we jacked up about five feet into the air and left them unsuported by the shifter's 5th wheel. These pups held more packages than a regular flat floor ("WW", "SC") pup and we never had a tire blow even though all the weight was on the rear tires. Same with jacked-up 40-foot "center-roller" trailers.

The weight of the pup in question shifted to the front when the leg collapsed. What weight remained on the rear tires was shifted to the tires on the tilt side. Probably about the same weight as normal. Not enough to cause a blowout.

Maybe someone who paid close attention in high school physics class can explain to all of us in detail, how there is an imaginary diagonal line running inside the length of the trailer, from the left-rear to the front-right (assuming the front-right leg collapsed), and the trailer can't flip unless the center of gravity crosses over that line. I believe for the trailer to flip, the front-right corner would have to sink lower than the ground level. Maybe if coincidentally, there was a big, deep pothole under the spot where the corner landed, then the trailer could flip. But in the present case, the ground is holding the trailer corner up.

I'd also like to see how low the other leg was. And if the collapsed leg was collapsed all the way. Also, if the contents were strapped in properly, the weight could shift, but only to a limited extent. Still plenty of weight on the left side to keep the vehicle from flipping. After all, the trailer sat for twenty minutes before the forklift drivers were even called. The pup, in fact, didn't flip. That reality should count for something.

 

[drewed]

I'd also like to see how low the other leg was. And if the collapsed leg was collapsed all the way. Also, if the contents were strapped in properly, the weight could shift, but only to a limited extent. Still plenty of weight on the left side to keep the vehicle from flipping. After all, the trailer sat for twenty minutes before the forklift drivers were even called. The pup, in fact, didn't flip. That reality should count for something.

And bridges collapse after standing strong for 20 years, that reality should count for something. This is neither here nor there this arguement is useless, the argument is why did hourlys do something they felt to be unsafe and the steward not only allowed them but participated in it.