Some folks will never do the footwork involved to learn how unions work and how legislation has turned the pr against unions. At one point in time, unions and management worked together to make sure a corporation didn't walk all over their workers. It was at one point (and still is and should be) a responsibility of the working man to make sure his company was on the up and up. Now it's an us vs. them mentality. The US as a country can't compete with other countries on prices and wages since we have very little foreign tariffs to protect our jobs. We then have NAFTA that encourages companies to make as much profit as possible. One of the easiest and most effective ways to do that is to outsource. The unions didn't cause these legislations to happen. They fought against them. Granted, some unions have gone overboard. People should be paid what their worth. At UPS we kill our bodies and we are the face of the company (as drivers anyway) so we get paid well, but not outrageously. It can't climb though...it should keep up with real inflation, but there's no excuse to make much more than we do now. UPS will continue to profit until we can "beam me up Scotty" our packages and make us obsolete. Unions are a good thing in some industries. UPS used to focus on service and quality. That set us apart from the crowd. It's not so much like that anymore.
The real question should be
- Thread starter packageguy
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ocnewguy
Well-Known Member
Unions are really, really, really bad at PR as mentioned earlier. Almost all the press they get is bad. The hostess debacle, the recent clerical strike in long beach the list goes on. The public always sees it as people that get paid way more than anyone in their field bitching and complaining and wanting more. Which...in all honesty is generally true, unfortunately. Unfortunately because the greediness factor overshadows the great things unions do for workers.
Strikes rarely bolster public opinion either for obvious reasons.
Strikes rarely bolster public opinion either for obvious reasons.
Indecisi0n
Well-Known Member
The unions response should have been "This is the sound going throughout our union members houses as these contractors take food from all of our workers babies mouths."
barnyard
KTM rider
Exactly.
Quit looking at the UPS/Union relationship and look at the bigger picture.
I am on other message boards. Go to two wheel texans and post the same question. It would appear that south of the mason/dixon line the public HATES union. North of it, it seems to be tolerated.
Why is that??
I would suggest it is because the PR of those against us is far stronger than from those that support.
It is well recognized by business people (including the Wall Street Journal) that Hostess filed bankruptcy because of poor management. Because it was done during a contract negotiation, conservative commentators can easily point to the union and say, "They would not except concessions, so they put the company out of business." Unfortunately, the truth was completely drowned out by 'exploding head radio.'
I believe that historians will look back and call this the "shareholder" era. Currently and for the past 15ish years, the only thing that seems to matter is 'shareholder value.' Translated, that means continually boost the share price to enrich day traders. I believe that reregulating banks and investments will be the 1 of the 1st steps to bring back the middle class. The other is going to be unions fighting to change 'RTW' laws so that the union does not have to defend scabs. If a person wants union representation, pay for it. If they do not, then do not pay for it, but also do not expect the benefits. I would include managing healthcare and retirement plans. If a person is not a member, make the employer manage that.
Unions need to do much more communicating to show their benefit to the rest of society. We have some very smart people on our side (Robert Reisch, for instance) and we need to do a better job of getting that message to the people in a way that they say, "Yes, that is a really good idea."
barnyard
KTM rider
I have seen posts on other forums where a guy is looking for a job. Someone suggested the railroad. The guy lived in a city that had a locomotive servicing terminal and they were hiring for the terminal. Fantastic job. Several people said, "I'd never work there, you have to join the union, there is no way I would work in a union shop."
What?????????
Even after pointing out that in Texas, the poster would not have to join the union, he said, "Yabbut I would never work in a union shop. I cannot stand the attitudes of union workers."
I say again, "What??????"
Conservative talk radio has convinced the middle class that unions are out to destroy the middle class. Probably one of the conservatives greatest victories.
In another conversation, a neighbor was going on and on about how UPS drivers were paid way too much. He said, "I would do that job for 1/2 the wage." I replied, "Spee Dee Delivery is hiring and they pay about half. Have at it." Spee Dee has a turnover rate at right around 50%, so evidently people are not happy doing the work for 1/2 the money.
It boggles my mind that people will happily accept doing the same job for significantly less money.
What?????????
Even after pointing out that in Texas, the poster would not have to join the union, he said, "Yabbut I would never work in a union shop. I cannot stand the attitudes of union workers."
I say again, "What??????"
Conservative talk radio has convinced the middle class that unions are out to destroy the middle class. Probably one of the conservatives greatest victories.
In another conversation, a neighbor was going on and on about how UPS drivers were paid way too much. He said, "I would do that job for 1/2 the wage." I replied, "Spee Dee Delivery is hiring and they pay about half. Have at it." Spee Dee has a turnover rate at right around 50%, so evidently people are not happy doing the work for 1/2 the money.
It boggles my mind that people will happily accept doing the same job for significantly less money.
TearsInRain
IE boogeyman
tariffs are the biggest job killer a government can affect
barnyard
KTM rider
That is correct.
In my area, transportation costs frequently exceed labor costs for a manufacturer.
If unions want to be successful, I believe that we need to look towards the German example of unions. BMW, Mercedes Benz, VW and more are made by union labor. For the most part, they are also examples of finely engineered and built cars (motorcycles in the case of BMW). So it would seem that good wages and profitable manufacturing can go together.
Brownslave688
You want a toe? I can get you a toe.
I love that people think we make too much. If this job were just 8 hr days and nothing else your talking about 65k. A good living yes absurd no. They reason some of a make 80,90 even 100k is OT. I'd like to see those people put in our hours.
WhereDoIWorkAgain
Active Member
As to my earlier comment on meetings when, in the past few days a new sheet (dated 12/3/12) appeared on the board at my hub, detailing meetings for the next year (2013). They all take place on the first or second Sunday of the month at 10 am each month. Which wouldn't be bad for most of my people. Interestingly though it is in a less prominent location than the 2010, schedule which is still up, and there isn't a 2011 or 2012 schedule (I do think that there was a 2011 schedule up at one time and there are a couple of fliers on changing meetings on the board). I really should find out who is in charge of maintaining it or at least who as the key as it is in a locked glass case.
As for pay, my feeling is that the part time wage needs to be a bit higher starting out. Where I am it is hovering right around min wage recent min wage increases. UPS still has a reputation as a good place to work and grow which we need to keep to keep getting strong employees to build with. When the fast food place or warehouse down the street will hire someone for about a quarter less an hour, and offer benefits in 30 or 90 days compared with a year, that is going to do away in fairly short order. This is especially true since in my region you are generally going to be looking at 3 or 4 years at least before you can move into a more stable position than part time loader/unloader/sorter. We are also starting to get a huge amount of turn over in the part time sups because of various issues.
As for pay, my feeling is that the part time wage needs to be a bit higher starting out. Where I am it is hovering right around min wage recent min wage increases. UPS still has a reputation as a good place to work and grow which we need to keep to keep getting strong employees to build with. When the fast food place or warehouse down the street will hire someone for about a quarter less an hour, and offer benefits in 30 or 90 days compared with a year, that is going to do away in fairly short order. This is especially true since in my region you are generally going to be looking at 3 or 4 years at least before you can move into a more stable position than part time loader/unloader/sorter. We are also starting to get a huge amount of turn over in the part time sups because of various issues.
Bubblehead
My Senior Picture
Hostess debacle???
How much reading have you done on it?
The unions involved were not the cause of that companies problems.
Greed starts at the top in big business and unions are the natural counter measure.
Our unions membership has become complacent and apathetic, which is where the true disconnect begins and ends.
It's time for the front line worker to wake up and realize we are being played.
I read all this talk about the exploitation of our part time workers, but truth remains that if they would vote within the union process they could have so much more.
barnyard
KTM rider
Which you know because you do read. Some people just read the headlines and for those that just listen to exploding head radio, well, they KNOW that the unions are to blame. The problem is that the union does not talk about their benefits in ways that a person that hears it will say, "Good job." All they talk about is the 'war with business.' Just once, I would like to hear a union leader, at a press conference say, "We are working with our partners in business" or something like that.
In another note....
The other morning on the way to work, NPR did a story on 'right to work' and talked about the origins of the phrase. Turns out, it is credited with a journalist that wrote about the union movement in 1902 and looked at unions as a blockade to jobs. Interesting to me that a phrase coined in 1902 still gets traction 110 years later.
Bagels
Family Leave Fridays!!!
No, unions were not the cause of Hostess's problems. But they played a major role.
Hostess's biggest problem was declining sales; people were either choosing healthier foods or substituting with cheaper alternatives. In order to continue as a viable competitor, Hostess needed both to expand its product line-up and become more price-aggressive. However, its CBA made it uncompetitive and its unions were not willing to budge on this. Perhaps the real problem in this country is the imbalance of wealth (executive management vs. general labor). And yes, unions are an answer to this but until the rest of the country rallies behind this idea, we have to deal with what we have. In Hostess's situation, workers could've agreed to a new CBA that would've substantially lowered their pay and benefits (and cost jobs, no doubt) but still kept them above-average for the industry. Instead, they choose to keep their pride... and now more than 18,000 of them are out of work, likely to be competing for minimum-wage, no benefit jobs.
Hostess is an interesting parallel to UPS because Hostess's competitors use an independent contractor model, in which one purchases a route (and is responsible for purchasing & maintaining his/her vehicle, as well as uniform, insurance, accounting, equipment, etc.) and "sells" products to consumers within the route's area, collecting income from the difference between these sales and wholesale prices the driver pays. Sounds familiar?
barnyard
KTM rider
Actually, the union accepted concessions in the last contract. Management wanted to force concessions again and the union said, "no." Management went to bankruptcy court to liquidate assets. Included in the request was a management bonus.
Unions are not all 'sunshine and lollipops' but anyone that believes that a union workforce was the primary reason for Hostess' bankruptcy is a very poor student of business.
Unions are not all 'sunshine and lollipops' but anyone that believes that a union workforce was the primary reason for Hostess' bankruptcy is a very poor student of business.
Bagels
Family Leave Fridays!!!
Rapidly declining sales drove Hostess into bankruptcy. Rapidly declining sales were caused in part by changing consumer tastes (healthier snacks, premium artisan breads, etc.) and in part by consumer transition to lower-priced brands. If you're in management, how do you solve this problem considering your cost structure? Yes, management made its mistakes. For example, it should've recognized the trend toward value-priced store brands to be permanent, consolidated its various brands under the most-recognizable Wonder Brand name, heavily reduced production & focused solely on specialty breads.
Yes, unions gave previous concessions. But sales continued to decline. If you worked as an interdependent contractor for Bimbo, your earnings would decrease as stores cut orders on, for example, Entenmann's products. Larger givebacks were a necessity to keep the company afloat. Employees could have accepted large givebacks and STILL made more than their competition Instead, they're competing for even lower-paying jobs and Wonder Bread may replace "Great Value" as Walmart's in-house bread brand.
And the bonuses management received are peanuts compared to the HUGE sums of money they would have earned should Hostess had become profitable and been able to issue an IPO.
H
htown0721
Guest
Well where I am at we have at least four shop stewards per shift and meetings are posted at three different locations throughout the center. Maybe your not looking hard enough.
Dracula
Package Car is cake compared to this...
Your facts are wanting, fellow.
Hiltzik: Poor management, not union intransigence, killed Hostess - latimes.com
Bagels
Family Leave Fridays!!!
You need to research the term "editorial."
Dracula
Package Car is cake compared to this...
When management continually raids a pension fund, which I should remind you, are benefits ALREADY paid, then there is a major problem with the direction of the way the company is being driven. Yes, sales were down. But to lay the fall of the company at the union's feet is a Wall Street PR twist-about. When Hostess originally went bankrupt, they owed somewhere around $400 million. When they came out of bankruptcy, they owed over $700 million. Where does that ever happen? I'll tell you were; in a company run by tramps (Wall Street). You go into bankruptcy to EASE your debts, not double them. But hey, all of those venture capitalists need to get paid, right?
Thanks for the advice, though. When I looked up "editorial", I saw you over in the "facts" department.
Bagels
Family Leave Fridays!!!
Thanks for telling me what happened. I'll tell you what really happened, though: Hostess erased most of its debt in bankruptcy but needed to take on new debt intended for conversion into operating capital. Hostess should never have emerged from bankruptcy without addressing its incredibly high labor costs, but its Democratic "venture capitalist" felt strongly that sales would rise. He was dead wrong, and the decline in sales accelerated. When your revenues continue to fall every year, you need to cut expenses - not add to them.
There's some other things to get straight as well...while I'm not a republican anymore, I am still at heart conservative and unions are just fine imo. They need to be policed by their membership just like any organization. I just can't go against good common sense. If we allow it, the richest 3 percent will take and take and take because you can never have enough money and power. Some folks have done a wonderful job convincing people that allowing others to succeed is "wealth redistribution." Now there's some union members that aren't worth their wage for sure. But for the most part, most of the guys I've worked with in the two Hubs I've worked in have been hard working folks. It's not hard to put together that the rich own the companies and the media outlets...I wonder which spin they'll put on the "news"...hmmm...
