The State of the "Union"

[reydluap]

Absolutely! It was a good thread starter. I read a lot of the comments. The one that hit me was - UPS wants the union membership to pay $90 for healthcare. (I don't know if that was a month or a year) Let's assume it is a monthly deduction.

Teamsters supported Obama care
HELLO, your union supported this president. Doctors and Republicans were telling you that Obamacare would have a major impact. Guess what? It is all coming true and now you get your panties in a bunch? Nobody cares, until they realize how it will affect them. UPS has to pay for Obamacare, just like when they were paying for the Central States Pension Fund. UPS was paying the pensions for other trucking companies that went bankrupt, PUTTING UPS PENSIONS AT RISK.

Union members feel they are protect by SENIORITY.
Big union supporters want to bleed the company dry. If the company has to cut back... Well, THEY won't be affected because THEY HAVE SENIORITY! Building are already closing. Sorts are closing down. EVERYBODY gets laid off when a building shuts down. Seniority won't help you!

What if the company closes it's doors, like so many have?
How do you think you are going to get a pension if the company can't pay it anymore? Ask California state union workers, ask these cities that have filed bankruptcy what is happening to the pensions! I know, it will never happen to UPS - think again. How many regions have been eliminated? How many districts? How many divisions have been consolidated? How many centers? - Now sorts are being eliminated. Packages are being rerouted and buildings are going to be closed. You can bet the company already has plans for lay-offs if the contract negotiations start getting ugly.

Non-Union Competition & Poor Economic Conditions
UPS has to remain competitive with the FDX and others - Or we will all be hurt. Start getting a clue, you got a pretty darn good job with great benefits and the reason is because you work hard and your company can compete with non-union companies. A strike means lost business FOREVER, and LOST JOBS. Jobs that won't be back. In the very best scenario, Just like GM, the company would be shrunk down and re-organized with lower wages and benefits and pensions or maybe no pensions at all.

You Union Leadership has not sold you out. They realize that the company has to make big money to pay big salaries and big benefits. If the company goes under, 350,000 Teamsters stop working.

GREAT POST!! It's nice to read that someone else out there on BC understands this!

 

[InsideUPS]

UPS Lifer writes :

"I read a lot of the comments. The one that hit me was - UPS wants the union membership to pay $90 for healthcare. (I don't know if that was a month or a year) Let's assume it is a monthly deduction." ----- If you read closer....you will see that UPS wants $90 per WEEK....

"Big union supporters want to bleed the company dry" - Ridiculous and simply not true.

"Building are already closing. Sorts are closing down." - Really?...Where?....and how are we making record profits?

"How do you think you are going to get a pension if the company can't pay it anymore? Ask California state union workers, ask these cities that have filed bankruptcy what is happening to the pensions! I know, it will never happen to UPS - think again. How many regions have been eliminated? How many districts? How many divisions have been consolidated? How many centers? - Now sorts are being eliminated. Packages are being rerouted and buildings are going to be closed" - Apples to Oranges....UPS to California comparison.. and once again... consolidation of MANAGEMENT regions..districts..divisions.. is a process of eliminating DEADWOOD .....because of technology.... Please tell me, exactly, how many sorts have been eliminated...location and which buildings are being closed.....how many and locations...?

"You Union Leadership has not sold you out. They realize that the company has to make big money to pay big salaries (like Scott Davis at $13,000,000) and big benefits. If the company goes under, 350,000 Teamsters stop working." - There are medications for bipolar disorders......one minute you're saying Union supporters want to bleed the company dry and the next you are telling us that the Union leadership has not sold us out. I'm really not sure where you are going with this one....



Just a hunch.......is there anyone here that happened to be one of the fortunate management people that hypothecated their stock before the IPO??? yes....before hourly were allowed to purchase stock and were forced to cash in all of our thrift plan savings....not knowing that it was actually UPS stock that we held....... Yes...we hourly were forced to sell low.....and buy high if we wanted to.... thanks but no thanks.....

 

[InsideUPS]

UPS Lifer writes

"HELLO, your union supported this president. Doctors and Republicans were telling you that Obamacare would have a major impact."

Not going to lie to you here.........I do have significant concerns about "Obamacare" / formally called the "Affordable Health Care for America Act"
Affordable Health Care for America Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sure if anyone noticed however, UPS has now put the value of our health care benefits on our W2.... That to me is not a good sign of things to come. I believe we are going to be taxed on our "Cadillac" health benefits in the near future..... wrong thing to do Mr. Obama....

Last year, we were informed that unless we made over $250,000 per year, we were not going to have our taxes raised... This is NOT true. I have had many employees come to me asking why UPS is taking out more in Federal taxes..........

I really don't want this thread to get political....because in truth... I really don't trust any politician....however....Mr. UPS Lifer's comments deserved comment IMHO...

Read more: http://www.browncafe.com/forum/f39/state-union-348568/index2.html#ixzz2KtM2kW34

 

[UPS Lifer]

For those who don't know me: I humbly think it is worth disclosing that I am a retired management person (2007) and was a UPS Teamster for 7 years and worked at UPS for almost 36 years.

I DO NOT believe it is us against them.
I believe in mutual respect.
I fully and unconditionally support the contract.
I do not believe in management doing non-management work.
I believe in shop stewards. One of my hub sorts did not have any. I asked the BA for 3 and would meet with them weekly. I asked the stewards to help me police my 36 supervisors to help ensure the contract was not abused.
I do not believe in calling non-management "hourly" or "bodies" - It is extremely denigrating.
I believe in taking breaks and lunches. It makes you more effective and helps you to work safely.
I believe in making employees successful - not firing them.
I would rip a grievance up, if you did not come to me first to get the problem fixed.
I believe in a fair time study for the employee, not one that is skewed in the company's favor.

I managed 7 centers - industrial - residential - rural and satellites.
I managed 3 major hub operations, preload and local sorts and air hubs and was responsible coordinating all compliance regulations for the district with an emphasis on our 2nd busiest regional airport behind Louisville.
I was a manager in every department except automotive as well as being on the senior staff and one of the very first Quality Managers in the country back in the early '90s.

 

[reydluap]

UPS Lifer,

I don't believe you have enough qualifications to even post here on the BC. Without automotive mangement experience, it's tough to accept your opinions. LOL!!! Just a little tongue and cheek humor......... I get where you are coming from on your post. The younger generation just hasn't developed the full understanding on the facts of business. I will always respect the opinion of someone that has "walked the walk" over someone that "talks the talk". And you have most definetly walked the walk.

 

[104Feeder]

I'll only speak for the Western Conference but our pensions are protected should UPS go under. We're fully funded and, of course, guaranteed by the PBGC. None of the money in the plan would go anywhere should UPS cease to exist.

 

[104Feeder]

For those who don't know me: I humbly think it is worth disclosing that I am a retired management person (2007) and was a UPS Teamster for 7 years and worked at UPS for almost 36 years.

I DO NOT believe it is us against them.
I believe in mutual respect.
I fully and unconditionally support the contract.
I do not believe in management doing non-management work.
I believe in shop stewards. One of my hub sorts did not have any. I asked the BA for 3 and would meet with them weekly. I asked the stewards to help me police my 36 supervisors to help ensure the contract was not abused.
I do not believe in calling non-management "hourly" or "bodies" - It is extremely denigrating.
I believe in taking breaks and lunches. It makes you more effective and helps you to work safely.
I believe in making employees successful - not firing them.
I would rip a grievance up, if you did not come to me first to get the problem fixed.
I believe in a fair time study for the employee, not one that is skewed in the company's favor.

I managed 7 centers - industrial - residential - rural and satellites.
I managed 3 major hub operations, preload and local sorts and air hubs and was responsible coordinating all compliance regulations for the district with an emphasis on our 2nd busiest regional airport behind Louisville.
I was a manager in every department except automotive as well as being on the senior staff and one of the very first Quality Managers in the country back in the early '90s.

If Scott Davis really wanted to fix this Company he would tear up the UPS Code of Conduct and just put what you wrote in there. Then, hire you as a consultant to retrain all the tyrants we have now.

(Ia Orana btw)

 

[InsideUPS]

For those who don't know me: I humbly think it is worth disclosing that I am a retired management person (2007) and was a UPS Teamster for 7 years and worked at UPS for almost 36 years.

I DO NOT believe it is us against them.
I believe in mutual respect.
I fully and unconditionally support the contract.
I do not believe in management doing non-management work.
I believe in shop stewards. One of my hub sorts did not have any. I asked the BA for 3 and would meet with them weekly. I asked the stewards to help me police my 36 supervisors to help ensure the contract was not abused.
I do not believe in calling non-management "hourly" or "bodies" - It is extremely denigrating.
I believe in taking breaks and lunches. It makes you more effective and helps you to work safely.
I believe in making employees successful - not firing them.
I would rip a grievance up, if you did not come to me first to get the problem fixed.
I believe in a fair time study for the employee, not one that is skewed in the company's favor.

I managed 7 centers - industrial - residential - rural and satellites.
I managed 3 major hub operations, preload and local sorts and air hubs and was responsible coordinating all compliance regulations for the district with an emphasis on our 2nd busiest regional airport behind Louisville.
I was a manager in every department except automotive as well as being on the senior staff and one of the very first Quality Managers in the country back in the early '90s.

With all due respect UPS Lifer, UPS is NOT exactly what it used to be when you worked for the company... You are welcome to come back at anytime.

You have an impressive resume and a set of admirable human characteristics on how you believe management/employee relations should be. It appears that you retired from UPS (2007) just as Scott Davis became CEO. Life at UPS changed significantly over the years. The first significant change occurred when we went public (IPO) and then again when Scott Davis (an accounting background) became CEO. For me personally, I thought that the "Q"uality era was one of the best periods in my career. (although I'm sure not near as profitable for the company).

• 1907–1962 James E. "Jim" Casey
• 1962–1972 George D. Smith
• 1972–1973 Paul Oberkotter
• 1973–1980 Harold Oberkotter
• 1980–1984 George Lamb
• 1984–1990 John W. Rogers
• 1990–1997 Kent C. "Oz" Nelson
• 1997–2001 James P. Kelly
• 2002–2007 Michael L. "Mike" Eskew
• 2008 – Present Scott Davis

 

[InsideUPS]

I'll only speak for the Western Conference but our pensions are protected should UPS go under. We're fully funded and, of course, guaranteed by the PBGC. None of the money in the plan would go anywhere should UPS cease to exist.

Financial advisors, research, and history will reveal that NO pension is actually 100% secure.. (just like our SS) Any pension that falls into the administration of the PBGC is lucky to get 50% of his or her original pension amount. I know it's not popular amongst some UPS Teamsters, but in all actuality, the only true secure savings is one that YOU personally are in charge of......one that is mobile if you happen to quit, lose your job, etc........some call it a 401k or similar savings plan..... Pulling UPS pensions from the Teamsters would no doubt have a serious domino effect on other Teamster pension plans..... we all know what the potential ramifications of that process could have... no one really likes to talk about it...

 

[UPS Lifer]

I'll only speak for the Western Conference but our pensions are protected should UPS go under. We're fully funded and, of course, guaranteed by the PBGC. None of the money in the plan would go anywhere should UPS cease to exist.

I did not know that - Honestly, that is the way it should be. Nobody should have to worry about this as they get older.

 

[Bagels]

Absolutely! It was a good thread starter. I read a lot of the comments. The one that hit me was - UPS wants the union membership to pay $90 for healthcare. (I don't know if that was a month or a year) Let's assume it is a monthly deduction.

Teamsters supported Obama care
HELLO, your union supported this president. Doctors and Republicans were telling you that Obamacare would have a major impact. Guess what? It is all coming true and now you get your panties in a bunch? Nobody cares, until they realize how it will affect them. UPS has to pay for Obamacare, just like when they were paying for the Central States Pension Fund. UPS was paying the pensions for other trucking companies that went bankrupt, PUTTING UPS PENSIONS AT RISK.

Total B.S. For many years, the cost & quality of health care one receives in this country has been dictated by his/her employer. That doesn't seem fair to the worker, nor does it seem right for the employer -- hence why many companies began reducing & eliminating health insurance in search for bigger profits. The snowballed effect of the un/underinsured has burdened the system such that costs continue to soar against inflation. We've had a crisis, and without any intervention more and more companies will continue to ditch health insurance. This burdens UPS much more than ObamaCare.

Do you know why doctors oppose ObamaCare? Because they stand to make less money. As it stands, people go to the doctor sick only to be told "oh, you have the flu ... get plenty of rest and you'll feel better in a few days" -- and get charged $200 for the piece of advice. Among other things, ObamaCare attempts (but does not mandate) for basic services to be handled by physican's assistants and nurse practitioners -- people with advanced educations who are more than capable of handling most office visits at a much lesser cost than a doctor. (And if you've been to a CVS / Walgreens / Walmart clinic this is who you've seen).

 

[104Feeder]

Financial advisors, research, and history will reveal that NO pension is actually 100% secure.. (just like our SS) Any pension that falls into the administration of the PBGC is lucky to get 50% of his or her original pension amount. I know it's not popular amongst some UPS Teamsters, but in all actuality, the only true secure savings is one that YOU personally are in charge of......one that is mobile if you happen to quit, lose your job, etc........some call it a 401k or similar savings plan..... Pulling UPS pensions from the Teamsters would no doubt have a serious domino effect on other Teamster pension plans..... we all know what the potential ramifications of that process could have... no one really likes to talk about it...

You've pretty much summarized the Corporate line against pensions, and it's pretty much all wrong. Corporations have shed pensions because they no longer feel any obligation to their employees after retirement (and not much before), not because they are inherently risky. Any pension that falls into the PBGC will receive, in most cases, more than 50% just look at these tables: Maximum Monthly Annuity Guarantees, Pension Benefits The limits are set by ERISA each year. Sure, it's not a dollar-for-dollar guarantee, but it's a lot better than nothing which is exactly what your 401k could bring you.

401k's have been sold to employees as a "better" alternative to Pensions, but really they are not nearly as secure and often fail to live up to the hype. If UPS were to replace our Pension with a typical 3-5% match that would cut their current obligation under the WCT by almost $15000 per year per full time employee. Great deal for Scott huh! Also, several times in every quarterly 401k statement it mentions in bold: NOT FDIC INSURED, NOT BANK-GUARANTEED, MAY LOSE VALUE because people like yourself seem to have some inpression their money is safe in a 401K. The only way to come close to making sure it's "safe" is to put it in the Stable Value Fund and watch inflation eat it all up (which I have seen more than one mis-informed co-worker do). What a deal! Then, of course, you are forgetting that putting $1 into the regular 401k fund is more like $.68 in retirement because it's taxed, and putting $1 into a Roth 401k is an actual dollar, but that assumes that Congress won't renege on the deal to tax that money in the future which might be quite a gamble in the current climate.

Our WCT pension doesn't need to be mobile, as if you are vested (5 years) it's there when you need it and since it's a multi-employer plan you can work for any participating employer and your money is going into the same plan. Mobility has been sold as a false benefit, as in the past working for different employers produced multiple pension payments at retirement so what's the problem? I know of many Teamsters who will be receiving a WCT pension as well as a pension from their military service, I don't see them complaining about mobility.

Pensions are designed to reward employees for long service and loyalty, something valued in companies with long solid histories like UPS. All 401k's & mobility have done is cause every wise employee to be looking for the next job once they land the first one....this is better?

I'll stick with my Western Conference of Teamsters Pension plan in addition to a Roth 401k thank you very much.

 

[UPS Lifer]

With all due respect UPS Lifer, UPS is NOT exactly what it used to be when you worked for the company... You are welcome to come back at anytime.

You have an impressive resume and a set of admirable human characteristics on how you believe management/employee relations should be. It appears that you retired from UPS (2007) just as Scott Davis became CEO. Life at UPS changed significantly over the years. The first significant change occurred when we went public (IPO) and then again when Scott Davis (an accounting background) became CEO. For me personally, I thought that the "Q"uality era was one of the best periods in my career. (although I'm sure not near as profitable for the company).

• 1907–1962 James E. "Jim" Casey
• 1962–1972 George D. Smith
• 1972–1973 Paul Oberkotter
• 1973–1980 Harold Oberkotter
• 1980–1984 George Lamb
• 1984–1990 John W. Rogers
• 1990–1997 Kent C. "Oz" Nelson
• 1997–2001 James P. Kelly
• 2002–2007 Michael L. "Mike" Eskew
• 2008 – Present Scott Davis

I agree with you on your POV. I happened to be going to a Corporate Manager's workshop when the company was thinking about going public and I was one of the only managers who believed that it was a good thing because it would give the employees (other than management) a chance to own a piece of the company. I was asked to write an opinion to the Management Committee representing that POV. Hindsight being 20-20, I would probably be against it now but I would have pushed for employees to own more of the privately held stock instead of an IPO.

I know for sure Davis was CEO in 2006 because that was my last full year. I do know that UPS has changed. I could see the writing on the wall the last two years. Not sure I could work there now. I don't like what I see. Management and non-management started taking big hits.

I actually thought about being a Teamster BA in Arizona but it would still be like re-opening a chapter of my life that I feel I have already completed.

 

[TechGrrl]

I know for sure Davis was CEO in 2006 because that was my last full year. I do know that UPS has changed. I could see the writing on the wall the last two years. Not sure I could work there now. I don't like what I see. Management and non-management started taking big hits.

Sorry, one correction: Eskew was still the CEO for the Centennial in 2007. I know that because he was in Louisville for a big celebration, and gave a talk about Jim Casey for over an hour, no notes, just out of his head. It was an amazing performance. I retired two weeks later. Then so did Mike.

I had the privilege of working for him from 1985-1991 when he was the newly appointed Region Air IE Manager in Louisville. He recruited a lot of the people to Louisville when they set up the Air Region in 1985.

 

[104Feeder]

I agree with you on your POV. I happened to be going to a Corporate Manager's workshop when the company was thinking about going public and I was one of the only managers who believed that it was a good thing because it would give the employees (other than management) a chance to own a piece of the company. I was asked to write an opinion to the Management Committee representing that POV. Hindsight being 20-20, I would probably be against it now but I would have pushed for employees to own more of the privately held stock instead of an IPO.

I know for sure Davis was CEO in 2006 because that was my last full year. I do know that UPS has changed. I could see the writing on the wall the last two years. Not sure I could work there now. I don't like what I see. Management and non-management started taking big hits.

I actually thought about being a Teamster BA in Arizona but it would still be like re-opening a chapter of my life that I feel I have already completed.

I'm sure Andy M would love to talk to you if you change your mind. BTW, you might look up Al Wittal since you're near Prescott.

 

[104Feeder]

The current state of our Union is that people are pissed off and ready to walk. We had to move our meeting outside today because so many people came to hear what UPS is trying to shove down our throats.

 

[brown_trousers]

Total B.S. For many years, the cost & quality of health care one receives in this country has been dictated by his/her employer. That doesn't seem fair to the worker, nor does it seem right for the employer -- hence why many companies began reducing & eliminating health insurance in search for bigger profits. The snowballed effect of the un/underinsured has burdened the system such that costs continue to soar against inflation. We've had a crisis, and without any intervention more and more companies will continue to ditch health insurance. This burdens UPS much more than ObamaCare.

What doesn't seem fair... is us hardworking people having to subsidize healthcare for others.

As if we don't have enough bills of our own, now we have to pay for other people's healthcare also!

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

OP, you start your post talking about we should not judge each others motives and opinions, but then later demand everyone have a single POV when it comes to enforcing various portions of the contract. Not everyone wants or needs those portions, and should not be made to do something detrimental to their life-friends, family, little-leaguers counting on their coach, etc. I am not the union, for I am not my bargaining agent, just as Scott Boras and his clients are not one.

Everyone should be careful about trying to make their viewpoints of UPS and the union EVERYONE else's; that right there will shut down a lot of people who might otherwise support the cause; no one likes to be told what to do, espepecially when they aren't directly paid for it (the Union fights for our pay, but they do not pay us; in fact it is the other way around).

A senior driver in poor shape needs help with over-70's; a young driver just needs to get home to his family. Sure, not lifting over 70's by himself can extend his career, so inform him of that. If he chooses to disagree, take your own counsel and don't look down on him or tell him or tell him to "Grow a pair and take a stand!" It may not be his stand because he may feel like it is not in his best interests at the moment. Recognise, however, that provision is in the contract because enough members support it; it won't be removed because some choose not to. There are other issues like this, most notably taking ones lunch between the 3-5 be, IF AT ALL (I have read over the portion of the contract dealing with this; how the language is worded is interesting. In a nutshell, if PRACTICAL a lunch is to be taken between between those hours, but what's "practical" vs not is not specified. In additional, UPS can compel a worker to take his lunch-and when-as well as work through his lunch, but he must be compensated; however, no where does it,state a worker MUST TAKE HIS LUNCH (unless the company compels him.) So a driver has THE RIGHT to skip his lunch if he so chooses; he will not get paid for it, however, unless UPS compels him to. A driver may think sacrificing $10k a year is worth seeing his family, and be just fine with $65k-$72k he'd make. Our lunches are not in danger, and all the stuff-'not shorting the unborn', even being unfairly compared to a driver skipping his lunch if it can be proven-in the end is one's personal choices and views.

For the record, I take my lunch, and don't nor wouldn't encourage others not to. But I find it just as courageous some one would go the path not taken to be with his loved ones as I do those who fight for the rights.

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

Pensions are designed to reward employees for long service and loyalty, something valued in companies with long solid histories like UPS. All 401k's & mobility have done is cause every wise employee to be looking for the next job once they land the first one....this is better?

This is incorrect. Pensions are/were more of a "thank-you" rather than reward. They are from a different time, when employees were viewed as family, and one-a boss or owner who had a personal relationship with his employees, and felt responsible to them as one might am elderly family member. Even in larger settings where such personal relationships were not possible those at the head often came up in similar situations, and an impression was made on them that they applied.

Nowadays the system is different. Nobody WANTS to work for one company anymore, or at least it seems that way. People are more independent, wanting to do what best fits them and their vision of how theor life works out. Rather than look for "jobs" they speak of "careers"-which are more broader in scope and can involve working with many different "jobs" w companies. They are more educated, including in financual matters, and want to have more say than a pension, or even a 401k can offer sometimes. They are planning to take care of themselves, and don't need their company to offer to take care of them.

in additional, those who are in charge aren't as exposed to other types/viewpoints as the CEOs of the times when pensions became popular, thus they cannot relate. They feel everyone can get an education and do what they do, and start their own/be appointed to run someone else's co, and if not well, life's unfair. Their job is to make money-not products, or offer services; they aren't always passionate about their fields, and thus have no connection to those who work for them. Thus, a pension is just an expense to hold them back from doing their jobs of making money-and an expense more and more are not very concerned about, in their independence. Everyone would like a pension just as everyone hopes social security will be there;they just aren't banking (pun intended) on it.

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

P.S. Before modern pensions children were a married couple's "retirement plan".