To join the union or not?

Box Ox

Well-Known Member
Any self-respecting individual in your position would give themselves two options: join or leave.

I dunno. As a year 1 part-timer with a low wage, no healthcare and no pension.......would it be unreasonable for me to wait until day 366 to start paying into the union instead of my "Just in case I get hurt or sick" fund? I'd love to contribute but every little bit counts right now.
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
I dunno. As a year 1 part-timer with a low wage, no healthcare and no pension.......would it be unreasonable for me to wait until day 366 to start paying into the union instead of my "Just in case I get hurt or sick" fund? I'd love to contribute but every little bit counts right now.

If you've been at UPS for a year, you have health insurance or will be enrolled fairly soon.

Quite frankly, when I did internal organizing for the pre-loaders, they're one of the few groups of PT'ers I won't be mad at for putting off signing a union card. If you've been at UPS less than a year and are making ~$10/hr and don't have benefits yet, I'm not going to be that upset if you opt out of paying dues right away. You should, but a lot of guys in that category are literally living on Ramen noodles and scraping together every nickel to make it by.

The polar opposite, however, lies in the "veteran" PT scabs. I have a large number of them in small sort on my shift; they're working a fairly easy (not as easy as it used to be, but gravy compared to loading/unloading) job, making $18-20+/hr, have full benefits, vested in the PT pension and they claim they "can't afford union dues." Many of them will clock out as soon as they're asked if they want to leave. They are the scum of the ****ing earth.

The saddest part is that each GWI would more than cover the weekly cost of a PT'ers union dues.
 

ChickenLegs

Safety Expert
$5 a week or whatever small amount you pay is the best insurance you can buy.

With the future raises coming up no one should claim they can't afford it - which is a load of bs anyway. And I know for a fact when the raises come those scabs will STILL claim they can't afford it.
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
So anyone who doesn't think the situation is good is a 19th century scab?

Your "join date" on BrownCafe is October 2011. Let's just go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt and say you were a seasonal and didn't attain seniority until February 2012. That would put you at $10/hr unskilled or $11/hr skilled -- if you've been working at UPS for a year and don't have your skill pay yet, that's entirely on you. You also have some of the best insurance around in the private sector.

It could be a lot better, but good luck finding that somewhere else.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
I could have sworn that a scab was someone that crosses a picket line. Not someone who choses to opt out of paying union dues. And wouldn't it be a little more proactive for us union members to honestly display the positives and negatives of joining rather than only dish out the same old cocky working class hero attitude by calling them scabs? That approach most likely turns a would be POTENTIAL member into a hell no decision. I mean just threaten to bust their knee caps if they don't sign up while you're at it. Don't forget your best Vito Corleone voice.
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
I could have sworn that a scab was someone that crosses a picket line. Not someone who choses to opt out of paying union dues. And wouldn't it be a little more proactive for us union members to honestly display the positives and negatives of joining rather than only dish out the same old cocky working class hero attitude by calling them scabs? That approach most likely turns a would be POTENTIAL member into a hell no decision. I mean just threaten to bust their knee caps if they don't sign up while you're at it. Don't forget your best Vito Corleone voice.

scab

[skab] noun, verb, scabbed, scab·bing.

noun 1.the incrustation that forms over a sore or wound during healing.

2.Veterinary Pathology. a mangy disease in animals, especially sheep; scabies. Compare itch ( def 10 ).

3.Plant Pathology.a.a disease of plants characterized by crustlike lesions on the affected parts and caused by a fungus or bacterium.
b.one of these crustlike lesions.

4.a worker who refuses to join a labor union or to participate in a union strike, who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like.

5.Slang. a rascal or scoundrel.


I've had the "positive" conversation with many part-timers and gotten them to sign cards that way and that's how I was trying to come across with vowl.

I've also had the positive conversation -- many times over -- with "seasoned" part-timers that tell me things like, "I get the same thing either way," "You guys have to protect me if I get in trouble," "I can't afford it," (then they go home an hour early 3-4 nights a week) etc. etc. and it gets old. Simply put: if you don't want to pay dues and work in a union shop, then go work somewhere else.
 

ORLY!?!

Master Loader
Hey guys I apologize if this is a dumb question. Just wanting to see what others think or do. My line sup wont tell me anything or give me any kind of insight on ANY issue. One of the drivers I load for told me a lot of the FT guys are not in the union. What are the benefits for it or what are the downfalls with it? Thanks in advance

Its a free country, do what you want to do, or feel is best as.

I see the need to be in the union as a FT driver, especially here. They get hounded and hunted daily, and often get fired for small things. In my own opinion, being in five years and believing I still dont get paid enough to get run over by the car other then just loading it.

The right to work state is a great place to be. You get the job protection and a steward has to still stand up for you. It doesnt matter if your a card carrying union member, you get defended. If you get fired, you can claim its because I'm not union, and thats against the law, so theres double the job protection. Your more likely to get fired as a union member. Why, well its because you should know better. I've seen quite a few get fired for ignorance.

As for those FT guys, its a shocker. Yet I dont know a lot of FT guys and gals union issues here. I know a porter that has stoped paying because he doesnt seem the system working for him. I know a 22.3 guy who went out for a long time due to sickness, stoped paying dues, came back and a shop steward pretty much forced him to sign back in. Which is against the law, by the way. You think UPS breaks laws, the union does too, they both do often.

As a PT guy, I really dont see the need. I'd rather them fire me anyways, it would be a blessing, really. I feel as a prisoner sent in for life around these parts.

As for these hardcore union guys on here. Sure they rag on me about not paying dues and blah, blah blah. Whatever, it doesnt bother in the least bit. They even go as far as to call me a scap, a name, like a child would. How silly, to call people names, and then stand all high a mighty like they have some dignty, respect or honor, please.
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
Freeloader McScabbyPants said:
Its a free country, do what you want to do, or feel is best as.

Yes, this is a free country. If you don't want to pay union dues, then don't work in a union shop.

Freeloader McScabbyPants said:
The right to work state is a great place to be.

RTW states also have lower wages and total compensation for workers. The least unionized state in the country (North Carolina @ less than 3.0% density) also ranks the lowest in the country for average wages. Workers in RTW states also make (on average) 3% less in total benefits and wages than workers in closed shop states (source: What’s wrong with ‘right-to-work’: Chamber’s numbers don’t add up | Economic Policy Institute) This is because labor unions raise the wage floor for even non-union shops.

Freeloader McScabbyPants said:
You get the job protection and a steward has to still stand up for you. It doesnt matter if your a card carrying union member, you get defended. If you get fired, you can claim its because I'm not union, and thats against the law, so theres double the job protection.

As a steward, I'm only required to fulfill my duty of fair representation (DFR). My DFR can be fulfilled by me sitting in the office and watching you lose your job while I say nothing at all; I simply cannot refuse to be present and cannot refuse to represent you. As long as you're being represented, there's not much ground to stand (as far as labor charges or a lawsuit go) on the basis of a labor union's chosen tactic to defend your job.
 

ORLY!?!

Master Loader
Yes, this is a free country. If you don't want to pay union dues, then don't work in a union shop.

RTW states also have lower wages and total compensation for workers. The least unionized state in the country (North Carolina @ less than 3.0% density) also ranks the lowest in the country for average wages. Workers in RTW states also make (on average) 3% less in total benefits and wages than workers in closed shop states (source: What’s wrong with ‘right-to-work’: Chamber’s numbers don’t add up | Economic Policy Institute) This is because labor unions raise the wage floor for even non-union shops.

As a steward, I'm only required to fulfill my duty of fair representation (DFR). My DFR can be fulfilled by me sitting in the office and watching you lose your job while I say nothing at all; I simply cannot refuse to be present and cannot refuse to represent you. As long as you're being represented, there's not much ground to stand (as far as labor charges or a lawsuit go) on the basis of a labor union's chosen tactic to defend your job.

I see that people who dont pay dues are often better workers. They dont stand on the grounds of filing on this or that, or have that huge negative disposition that many of the hardcore union members have. Its a huge reason why union workers often get fired, at the PT level.

*Sigh* You look only at the reason why they dont get paid more, not the place they reside. Since you place a link to something with just text, and a bias into the study in college, ill give you a link that has a little more to it. Right-to-work law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If you will notice on the map lower on this page, the RTW states are often those without huge democrat spending on social programs, huge pensions for government jobs ( not yet anyways ) and many others. Otherwise, mostly conservative states. These states dont have the huge spending in their state government. So the cost of living is low.

Only Michigan, which was run by mainly democrats, as just recently join the RTW state, only out of pure desperation. They were run dy democrats for the past 60 years, and they ran that state into the ground.

As for your last statement, wow. You would rather someone loose their job because they arnt in the union, and say nothing, now thats neglect. And have no spirit or compassion for someone, that they could have a family at home who they are supporting with health benefits and other programs. This is sad, even worse, its just gross. Your true colors are showing, yet you seem just fine with someone who might become homeless. Someone who might become a criminal, all because you didnt bat an eye in the compassion in humanity. You sir are a piece of garbage, not calling you names or flaming, this is just sickening to me.
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
As for your last statement, wow. You would rather someone loose their job because they arnt in the union, and say nothing, now thats neglect. And have no spirit or compassion for someone, that they could have a family at home who they are supporting with health benefits and other programs. This is sad, even worse, its just gross. Your true colors are showing, yet you seem just fine with someone who might become homeless. Someone who might become a criminal, all because you didnt bat an eye in the compassion in humanity. You sir are a piece of garbage, not calling you names or flaming, this is just sickening to me.

If it's any consolation, the feeling is mutual.
 

Lineandinitial

Legio patria nostra
Piedmont Steward seems to have a syndicalistic perspective still fueled by the "class struggle". Just look at the Hoffa epitath.

Don't stand (or have small children and old ladies stand) in the way of people like him and getting what they believe they're entitled to.

Shame, shame, shame on you.
 

ChickenLegs

Safety Expert
I see that people who dont pay dues are often better workers. They dont stand on the grounds of filing on this or that, or have that huge negative disposition that many of the hardcore union members have.

Just because someone's production numbers don't look good on paper doesn't mean a thing. I don't give a *beep* about production numbers. I will get the job done, and I will do it safely and by the methods 100%. Scabs do not deserve any benefit the union fought for.

You know why they have a negative stance? Because the company blatantly violates the rights that the brotherhood is entitled to.
 

stink219

Well-Known Member
As for your last statement, wow. You would rather someone loose their job because they arnt in the union, and say nothing, now thats neglect. And have no spirit or compassion for someone, that they could have a family at home who they are supporting with health benefits and other programs. This is sad, even worse, its just gross. Your true colors are showing, yet you seem just fine with someone who might become homeless. Someone who might become a criminal, all because you didnt bat an eye in the compassion in humanity. You sir are a piece of garbage, not calling you names or flaming, this is just sickening to me.
Not a single person could convince me that a RTW state is nothing more than a simple union busting technique. Flat out, join the union. You want him to feel compassion for a scab that loses his job that doesn't pay dues, yet you can't understand what the real union members have fought so hard to achieve? Forget "scab", these people should be called thieves. Convince me please that the rules of a RTW state are fair? I don't understand people! Freeloaders!
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
If you've been at UPS for a year, you have health insurance or will be enrolled fairly soon.

Quite frankly, when I did internal organizing for the pre-loaders, they're one of the few groups of PT'ers I won't be mad at for putting off signing a union card. If you've been at UPS less than a year and are making ~$10/hr and don't have benefits yet, I'm not going to be that upset if you opt out of paying dues right away. You should, but a lot of guys in that category are literally living on Ramen noodles and scraping together every nickel to make it by.

The polar opposite, however, lies in the "veteran" PT scabs. I have a large number of them in small sort on my shift; they're working a fairly easy (not as easy as it used to be, but gravy compared to loading/unloading) job, making $18-20+/hr, have full benefits, vested in the PT pension and they claim they "can't afford union dues." Many of them will clock out as soon as they're asked if they want to leave. They are the scum of the ****ing earth.

The saddest part is that each GWI would more than cover the weekly cost of a PT'ers union dues.

scab

[skab] noun, verb, scabbed, scab·bing.

noun 1.the incrustation that forms over a sore or wound during healing.

2.Veterinary Pathology. a mangy disease in animals, especially sheep; scabies. Compare itch ( def 10 ).

3.Plant Pathology.a.a disease of plants characterized by crustlike lesions on the affected parts and caused by a fungus or bacterium.
b.one of these crustlike lesions.

4.a worker who refuses to join a labor union or to participate in a union strike, who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like.

5.Slang. a rascal or scoundrel.


I've had the "positive" conversation with many part-timers and gotten them to sign cards that way and that's how I was trying to come across with vowl.

I've also had the positive conversation -- many times over -- with "seasoned" part-timers that tell me things like, "I get the same thing either way," "You guys have to protect me if I get in trouble," "I can't afford it," (then they go home an hour early 3-4 nights a week) etc. etc. and it gets old. Simply put: if you don't want to pay dues and work in a union shop, then go work somewhere else.

Hmmm.....I can't say I've seen many people contradict themselves as much as this before.


 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
I don't really see how I contradicted myself, when each post was directed towards a different person. The second part was directed towards partially towards vowl (who has probably been at UPS over a year and has benefits) and to you. There's a big difference between a preloader getting 17.5 hours a week @ $10/hr with no benefits not paying dues and someone who has a year or two under their belt that's making $11-12/hr with benefits.
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
Piedmont Steward seems to have a syndicalistic perspective still fueled by the "class struggle". Just look at the Hoffa epitath.

Don't stand (or have small children and old ladies stand) in the way of people like him and getting what they believe they're entitled to.

Shame, shame, shame on you.

Didn't red-baiting die off in the 1960's?
 

didyousheetit

Well-Known Member
I see that people who dont pay dues are often better workers. They dont stand on the grounds of filing on this or that, or have that huge negative disposition that many of the hardcore union members have. Its a huge reason why union workers often get fired, at the PT level.

*Sigh* You look only at the reason why they dont get paid more, not the place they reside. Since you place a link to something with just text, and a bias into the study in college, ill give you a link that has a little more to it. Right-to-work law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If you will notice on the map lower on this page, the RTW states are often those without huge democrat spending on social programs, huge pensions for government jobs ( not yet anyways ) and many others. Otherwise, mostly conservative states. These states dont have the huge spending in their state government. So the cost of living is low.

Only Michigan, which was run by mainly democrats, as just recently join the RTW state, only out of pure desperation. They were run dy democrats for the past 60 years, and they ran that state into the ground.

As for your last statement, wow. You would rather someone loose their job because they arnt in the union, and say nothing, now thats neglect. And have no spirit or compassion for someone, that they could have a family at home who they are supporting with health benefits and other programs. This is sad, even worse, its just gross. Your true colors are showing, yet you seem just fine with someone who might become homeless. Someone who might become a criminal, all because you didnt bat an eye in the compassion in humanity. You sir are a piece of garbage, not calling you names or flaming, this is just sickening to me.
what is sad, even worse, its just gross. That someone would allow themselves to become homeless or become a criminal while supporting a family with health benefits and other programs. Just because they won't pay two and a half times their wage per month. I guess you get what you pay for. just sayin
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
I don't really see how I contradicted myself, when each post was directed towards a different person. The second part was directed towards partially towards vowl (who has probably been at UPS over a year and has benefits) and to you. There's a big difference between a preloader getting 17.5 hours a week @ $10/hr with no benefits not paying dues and someone who has a year or two under their belt that's making $11-12/hr with benefits.

But you clearly said two different things. You can't say it's ok for one group to opt out of joining a union and then make an apparent blanket statement about how people should go elsewhere if they don't want to pay dues in a union shop. That's two different things. Besides......it doesn't matter. Those are only opinions and in many states the law says we can chose. I chose to join, as a part-timer, after one year with the company and I'm glad I did. I was never a scab and the people that helped convince me to join never called me one or came at me with a cocky, overbearing, working class hero attitude like many of the die hards on this site project every time this subject comes up. You guys think you are proving a point and pulling people in but in reality you are pushing most away. My old Air Force T.I. (drill instructor) would be screaming about how "Your methods are COUNTER PRODUCTIVE to the cause!" LOL!
 
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