3
30andout
Guest
I think it would be nice to be represented by someone who is thinking of only UPS employees for a change rather than how to save themselves and a lot of other small companies.After all who makes up the largest part of ITB.
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M
my2cents
Guest
I'll echo the fact that some in the IBT only are looking out for themselves. All that power just goes to their heads. I need to look no further than their long range track record in the area of ethics, which is simply awful. Carlow Scalf is just another contemporary and sorry example of this ethically challenged organization. Even Ed Stier walked away, leaving Project RISE in oblivion.
W
wkmac
Guest
<font color="ff0000">You have to have a major crisis to get people to change. If the pension is your major crisis then you have to be able to convince enough people that you have the right answer. </font>
Good point tie and I'm not convinced the membership as a whole has hit critical mass yet. Recently the Central States magazine discussed what would happen if the pension fund went into default and the gov't took over control. Now there is your potential critical mass but outside of that I'm not convinced the broader membership is ready to jump ship even in light of what many percieve as problems.
I'll also echo the comments I'd like to see a union focused solely on UPS and what solely is good for UPS members. A UPS only union IMO would be some desirable but is it achieveable? I'm not convinced it is at this point but I'm still very happy to see the issue out in the open and on the table.
Good point tie and I'm not convinced the membership as a whole has hit critical mass yet. Recently the Central States magazine discussed what would happen if the pension fund went into default and the gov't took over control. Now there is your potential critical mass but outside of that I'm not convinced the broader membership is ready to jump ship even in light of what many percieve as problems.
I'll also echo the comments I'd like to see a union focused solely on UPS and what solely is good for UPS members. A UPS only union IMO would be some desirable but is it achieveable? I'm not convinced it is at this point but I'm still very happy to see the issue out in the open and on the table.
T
trickpony
Guest
wkmac,
Could it be the majority of the membership isn't ready to "jump ship" because they trust the company even less than they trust the union? How many times have we, the hourly employees, been lied to by management? The "Thrift Plan" fiasco comes to mind. Management has shown me what they are capable of many times. Policies that pop up for the specific moment then disappear never to be heard from again tell me the company is gonna do what they want. The company will try to sell us a sweet deal to take control of the pension but once it is in place will they change it to suit their whims?
Could it be the majority of the membership isn't ready to "jump ship" because they trust the company even less than they trust the union? How many times have we, the hourly employees, been lied to by management? The "Thrift Plan" fiasco comes to mind. Management has shown me what they are capable of many times. Policies that pop up for the specific moment then disappear never to be heard from again tell me the company is gonna do what they want. The company will try to sell us a sweet deal to take control of the pension but once it is in place will they change it to suit their whims?
P
pretender
Guest
I agree--There is not critical mass; and I am not sure if there will be in the near future...The vast majority of people I talk to, are relying on UPS to take care of us in the next contract. I held that point of view originally; but now I have to wonder (Thanks ok2bclever!). I just do not believe that the company was required to raise the insurance premiums to match the union. That might be the letter of the contract, but certainly not the spirit.
U
upsdude
Guest
You have to have a major crisis to get people to change.
Imagine the outcry if the company were the ones cutting pension amounts. The story would lead every nightly newscast, congress would be demanding an explanation, and the union would be asking for a work stoppage. Im afraid we lost our chance to fix this in 1997.
Imagine the outcry if the company were the ones cutting pension amounts. The story would lead every nightly newscast, congress would be demanding an explanation, and the union would be asking for a work stoppage. Im afraid we lost our chance to fix this in 1997.
F
feeders
Guest
Pretender,
Remember after contract negotiations, Hoffa said the dollar amount negotiated that went into the pension fund was more than enough to fund current benefit levels?
Remember after contract negotiations, Hoffa said the dollar amount negotiated that went into the pension fund was more than enough to fund current benefit levels?
C
crazygill
Guest
Iam from the north and it sure is not any better up here/ love the idea of shaken up the bushes lots of talk up here not happy at all.
C
crazygill
Guest
Lets put this in a nut shell/ someone comes into your house and walks up to you and takes $200.00 from you and then walks out, next week he does the same thing then you ask
him whats up and he sayes just because i can how long will you let this go on well guess what this is what ups is doing and the union just will let it go on just because. wake up people if we don't stand togeather now better start packen because it all down hill.we got three to get our head out of our --- .
him whats up and he sayes just because i can how long will you let this go on well guess what this is what ups is doing and the union just will let it go on just because. wake up people if we don't stand togeather now better start packen because it all down hill.we got three to get our head out of our --- .
P
pretender
Guest
Feeders,
Yes, I do seem to recall Hoffa stating that...
I don't want to go as far as saying there is a conspiracy; but there does not seem to be any meaningful concern on the part of either UPS or the Union to help us out...
Regarding the Union--What good does it do us, to finally recognize the Reciprocal Agreement (part-time years of credit), or to increase the pension benefits back to $100/month per year of service, when you can't take advantage of it anyway? I have $2650 per month locked in as of the time of the changes. If I were to retire today, do you know how much I would get per month for this past year of service--$17! I could actually live with that; but after last Decmber, I can't get insurance at any price--even the inflated premiums that UPS was "forced" to impose on us.
Question: Is there any UPSer in Central States, whose insurance is provided by Central States, rather than UPS?
Yes, I do seem to recall Hoffa stating that...
I don't want to go as far as saying there is a conspiracy; but there does not seem to be any meaningful concern on the part of either UPS or the Union to help us out...
Regarding the Union--What good does it do us, to finally recognize the Reciprocal Agreement (part-time years of credit), or to increase the pension benefits back to $100/month per year of service, when you can't take advantage of it anyway? I have $2650 per month locked in as of the time of the changes. If I were to retire today, do you know how much I would get per month for this past year of service--$17! I could actually live with that; but after last Decmber, I can't get insurance at any price--even the inflated premiums that UPS was "forced" to impose on us.
Question: Is there any UPSer in Central States, whose insurance is provided by Central States, rather than UPS?
O
ok2bclever
Guest
Yeah, Hoffa said that.
The company also told us this was the greatest contract ever.
It was the consensus of all the involved pension funds across the USA that the contribution rate negotiated would be adequate.
The market had another couple of bad years, some major contributing companies went out of business and the baby boom generation continued to retire.
Obviously all of that made it wrong regarding the Central States fund which is certainly a large one, but hardly the entire USA.
Companies are cutting and eliminating pensions because of these same issues (skyrocketing medical costs and retirement demographics) all over the USA.
It's in the papers (not front page) and available for those who wish to search for it, but unless you are personally affected it apparently is not front page news.
Our company would be one of them doing so except they cannot because the contract and laws of the USA stop them from making some moves.
They are currently working to get the laws of the USA changed regarding this.
As far as "After all who makes up the largest part of ITB." it would be those "other small companies".
UPS Teamsters represent the single largest group at 14.some percent, but hardly a majority of the total contributing Teamsters.
Critical mass?
You have to be joking! Take any average center and you can count on one hand with fingers left over the amount of membership that has done anything proactive (even as far as a letter) regarding this issue.
Same 'ole, same 'ole, bitch, piss and whine and wait for someone else to fix the problems.
Sorry,
forgot moan, they moan too, didn't mean to belittle all the things most are willing to do.
Realize, those of you who make the effort and take the time to read and post even here (which doesn't take much effort from the comfort of your homes) are in a very very tiny minority.
Have you mentioned this site to your fellow workers?
How many of those have actually bothered to take the time to come on here, let alone actually post.
I only know of one at my center.
Hi Bob !(name changed to protect the innocent).
The company also told us this was the greatest contract ever.
It was the consensus of all the involved pension funds across the USA that the contribution rate negotiated would be adequate.
The market had another couple of bad years, some major contributing companies went out of business and the baby boom generation continued to retire.
Obviously all of that made it wrong regarding the Central States fund which is certainly a large one, but hardly the entire USA.
Companies are cutting and eliminating pensions because of these same issues (skyrocketing medical costs and retirement demographics) all over the USA.
It's in the papers (not front page) and available for those who wish to search for it, but unless you are personally affected it apparently is not front page news.
Our company would be one of them doing so except they cannot because the contract and laws of the USA stop them from making some moves.
They are currently working to get the laws of the USA changed regarding this.
As far as "After all who makes up the largest part of ITB." it would be those "other small companies".
UPS Teamsters represent the single largest group at 14.some percent, but hardly a majority of the total contributing Teamsters.
Critical mass?
You have to be joking! Take any average center and you can count on one hand with fingers left over the amount of membership that has done anything proactive (even as far as a letter) regarding this issue.
Same 'ole, same 'ole, bitch, piss and whine and wait for someone else to fix the problems.
Sorry,
forgot moan, they moan too, didn't mean to belittle all the things most are willing to do.
Realize, those of you who make the effort and take the time to read and post even here (which doesn't take much effort from the comfort of your homes) are in a very very tiny minority.
Have you mentioned this site to your fellow workers?
How many of those have actually bothered to take the time to come on here, let alone actually post.
I only know of one at my center.
Hi Bob !(name changed to protect the innocent).
F
feeders
Guest
Trickpony,
That is why the APWA is employee driven. Not the Teamsters, not UPS, but you the employee will control your own future!
That is why the APWA is employee driven. Not the Teamsters, not UPS, but you the employee will control your own future!
F
feeders
Guest
Ok2bclever,
Junior Hoffa was the first one to call the last contract, "THE BEST CONTRACT EVER!"
Junior Hoffa was the first one to call the last contract, "THE BEST CONTRACT EVER!"
O
ok2bclever
Guest
But not the last or only.
I am fully for a UPS only union, period.
However, I am also an adult who doesn't buy into scams.
I will believe the APWA is employee driven when I see it.
Not saying this is just another scam, but I am not impressed with the rhetoric innacuracies I have seen on the initial pages of this proposed new union.
Another thing, being employee driven is not the only prerequisite I would require before being willing to back it.
Competency is another.
Sorry, but that is still far from proven from what I have seen so far.
The last thing we need is some starry eyed innocent dreamers being all we have between us and the very knowledgeable and ruthlessly efficient corporate machinery.
I do agree with wkmac that this is a welcome event in that it has the potential at the very least to shake the Teamsters up a bit into perhaps being more UPS employee responsive.
Competition is not all bad, despite what UPS tells us.
I am fully for a UPS only union, period.
However, I am also an adult who doesn't buy into scams.
I will believe the APWA is employee driven when I see it.
Not saying this is just another scam, but I am not impressed with the rhetoric innacuracies I have seen on the initial pages of this proposed new union.
Another thing, being employee driven is not the only prerequisite I would require before being willing to back it.
Competency is another.
Sorry, but that is still far from proven from what I have seen so far.
The last thing we need is some starry eyed innocent dreamers being all we have between us and the very knowledgeable and ruthlessly efficient corporate machinery.
I do agree with wkmac that this is a welcome event in that it has the potential at the very least to shake the Teamsters up a bit into perhaps being more UPS employee responsive.
Competition is not all bad, despite what UPS tells us.
F
feeders
Guest
Ok2bclever,
Go to our Hot off the Presses page and look at what you would have if we had your pension in 1974 to 2004. It is your money. UPS pays the Teamsters $20,000 a year per full time employee today for our health and welfare. The Teamsters just organized DHL at JFK. They gave them 100% healthcare, (by the way, we only have 80%) for little of nothing in cost to them. That was the bait to lure them in the trap, then the door shut behind them. You and I will now start paying the healthcare cost for DHL employees. COME STAND WITH US!
Go to our Hot off the Presses page and look at what you would have if we had your pension in 1974 to 2004. It is your money. UPS pays the Teamsters $20,000 a year per full time employee today for our health and welfare. The Teamsters just organized DHL at JFK. They gave them 100% healthcare, (by the way, we only have 80%) for little of nothing in cost to them. That was the bait to lure them in the trap, then the door shut behind them. You and I will now start paying the healthcare cost for DHL employees. COME STAND WITH US!
F
feguy
Guest
It is so funny to read the opinons posted here.
ok2b - one of the funniest to post here - states
"Companies are cutting and eliminating pensions because of these same issues (skyrocketing medical costs and retirement demographics) all over the USA"
Well, yes. And maybe it's time that we, the employees who "benefit" from an emloyers cash to fund our pensions and pay our medical premiums, things they are not required to do by any law, but agree to do, so maybe it's time that we, the beneficiary's of those things, start valuing them, and comments like, "I get paid by the hour" which implies "I'll take as long as I want" maybe those things will stop, in light of the fact that many companies simply can't afford a workforce that feels that way any longer.
Another interesting comment - that UPS is a very knowledgable and ruthlessly efficient corporate machine" Aren't we glad that they are? They know their business, they are one of the most successful, well run, financially sound and profitable companies in the world. Glad to be a part of the organization. I think it's the first compliment I have ever read from that poster towards UPS.
ok2b - one of the funniest to post here - states
"Companies are cutting and eliminating pensions because of these same issues (skyrocketing medical costs and retirement demographics) all over the USA"
Well, yes. And maybe it's time that we, the employees who "benefit" from an emloyers cash to fund our pensions and pay our medical premiums, things they are not required to do by any law, but agree to do, so maybe it's time that we, the beneficiary's of those things, start valuing them, and comments like, "I get paid by the hour" which implies "I'll take as long as I want" maybe those things will stop, in light of the fact that many companies simply can't afford a workforce that feels that way any longer.
Another interesting comment - that UPS is a very knowledgable and ruthlessly efficient corporate machine" Aren't we glad that they are? They know their business, they are one of the most successful, well run, financially sound and profitable companies in the world. Glad to be a part of the organization. I think it's the first compliment I have ever read from that poster towards UPS.
M
my2cents
Guest
OK2BC,
I'm sure this new union doesn't have all the answers to your concerns, but you got to start somewhere. As the chiche goes, Rome wasn't built in day. Perhaps you could lend your expertise in helping this new organization get on it's feet. After all, it's a employee driven organization.
As I see it, the three worst things working against this new union are fear, apathy and inertia. Getting people out of their comfort zone or their head out of the sand to even think about worker issues will be a challenge. Many won't do anything until an issue literally slaps them directly in the face.
Personally, I try to raise workplace issues with my fellow co-workers. I believe I'm known as the guy who walks around handing out newspaper clippings, Internet news, etc. Sometimes I wonder if its worth the effort, but I persist anyway. Most are content to talk about sports, workplace gossip, etc. If the APWA is to be a national success, it will come down to it's abilty to communicate with this group.
I'm sure this new union doesn't have all the answers to your concerns, but you got to start somewhere. As the chiche goes, Rome wasn't built in day. Perhaps you could lend your expertise in helping this new organization get on it's feet. After all, it's a employee driven organization.
As I see it, the three worst things working against this new union are fear, apathy and inertia. Getting people out of their comfort zone or their head out of the sand to even think about worker issues will be a challenge. Many won't do anything until an issue literally slaps them directly in the face.
Personally, I try to raise workplace issues with my fellow co-workers. I believe I'm known as the guy who walks around handing out newspaper clippings, Internet news, etc. Sometimes I wonder if its worth the effort, but I persist anyway. Most are content to talk about sports, workplace gossip, etc. If the APWA is to be a national success, it will come down to it's abilty to communicate with this group.
D
dannyboy
Guest
"We will operate solely from your contributions or will stop this campaign. "
LEmme see, they want me to donate money, and when they figure that they have collected as much as they can, then they state that "well, there has not been any help forthcoming and contributions are not enough to cover expenses" Who is going to make that decision? A lawyer?
Something else, if you run the numbers they sound too good to be true. Life has taught me if it sounds to good to be true, it is.
One more thing, during the last contract, it would have cost the company over 2 billion dollars to buy out UPS employees from the multi employer plans. So you think we are just going to waltz out without any cost?
Just too may loop holes from what I have seen. While I dont trust the teamsters or for that matter UPS, what makes you think that we ought to trust someone promising the moon?
d
LEmme see, they want me to donate money, and when they figure that they have collected as much as they can, then they state that "well, there has not been any help forthcoming and contributions are not enough to cover expenses" Who is going to make that decision? A lawyer?
Something else, if you run the numbers they sound too good to be true. Life has taught me if it sounds to good to be true, it is.
One more thing, during the last contract, it would have cost the company over 2 billion dollars to buy out UPS employees from the multi employer plans. So you think we are just going to waltz out without any cost?
Just too may loop holes from what I have seen. While I dont trust the teamsters or for that matter UPS, what makes you think that we ought to trust someone promising the moon?
d
U
upsdude
Guest
I see failure for this new association if they try to begin life as a union. I see the first order of business as becoming an association only. Once they prove themselves as a lobby, then a conversion could take place. One things for sure, if they are successful they will deserve a Gold Medal in Hurdles.
Ive always felt that a well organized, honest, and lean union could take the corporate world by storm. I just dont see the Teamsters filling that void.
Ive always felt that a well organized, honest, and lean union could take the corporate world by storm. I just dont see the Teamsters filling that void.
M
my2cents
Guest
Good questions d. Have you tried contacting them? Given the issues involved, a healthy dose of skepticism is necessary.
No doubt the pension rollover solution will be a messy one and is not anywhere to be found on the site. In their defense, the contributions over the 30 year period are compounded, thus producing the projected higher payout. Their model also is based on what appears to be an individual annuity, instead of the negative dynamics of the multi-employer model when the ratio of retirees drawing benefits exceeds the number of participants whose employer is making contributions on their behalf.
Let's also not forget that the UPS Pension Plan and UPS Retirement Plan are 100% funded. I wouldn't know if these plans compounded like the UBS fund example on their site, however. Furthermore, assuming the UBS plan were adopted, I believe this plan would fall under the single employer rules, which are more stringent than the multi-employer model. So in effect, by law, this plan would have to be 90% funded or better at all times.
I'm assuming if they can't get enough interest they will cease operations, just like any business would. Speaking for myself, this new union offers a potential second chance that was lost in '97, which I welcome. Furthermore, I'm at least 20-25 years from retirement and quite frankly, if present trends continue, I don't expect the pension I'm vested in to exist when I go to file a benefit claim down the road. Change however painful, will be necessary at some point. These issues are not going to fix themselves, so doing nothing is not an option.
Its great we are able to debate this here. Quite honestly, the discussion on this thread is far better than any I could get at work. I'm also thankful for the folks behind APWA for having the gumption to try even if the union fails.
No doubt the pension rollover solution will be a messy one and is not anywhere to be found on the site. In their defense, the contributions over the 30 year period are compounded, thus producing the projected higher payout. Their model also is based on what appears to be an individual annuity, instead of the negative dynamics of the multi-employer model when the ratio of retirees drawing benefits exceeds the number of participants whose employer is making contributions on their behalf.
Let's also not forget that the UPS Pension Plan and UPS Retirement Plan are 100% funded. I wouldn't know if these plans compounded like the UBS fund example on their site, however. Furthermore, assuming the UBS plan were adopted, I believe this plan would fall under the single employer rules, which are more stringent than the multi-employer model. So in effect, by law, this plan would have to be 90% funded or better at all times.
I'm assuming if they can't get enough interest they will cease operations, just like any business would. Speaking for myself, this new union offers a potential second chance that was lost in '97, which I welcome. Furthermore, I'm at least 20-25 years from retirement and quite frankly, if present trends continue, I don't expect the pension I'm vested in to exist when I go to file a benefit claim down the road. Change however painful, will be necessary at some point. These issues are not going to fix themselves, so doing nothing is not an option.
Its great we are able to debate this here. Quite honestly, the discussion on this thread is far better than any I could get at work. I'm also thankful for the folks behind APWA for having the gumption to try even if the union fails.
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