UPS, Without the Pay

[quadro]

Regardless, we're talking about hourlies here. Besides this isn't a forum for management.

Heaven forbid they offer us peon couriers any kind of buyouts.

People here, yourself included if I'm not mistaken, complain about how hard FedEx expects you to work. Now you want FedEx to buyout hourly employees so there would be A. less employees and those left would work even harder, or B. FedEx would have to hire new employees to replace those they bought out? Or both. How does that make any sense? Unless you are specifically talking about just yourself and why won't FedEx just give you a bunch of money to go away, in which case, what do you care if there's a union or not?

 

[Cactus]

People here, yourself included if I'm not mistaken, complain about how hard FedEx expects you to work. Now you want FedEx to buyout hourly employees so there would be A. less employees and those left would work even harder, or B. FedEx would have to hire new employees to replace those they bought out? Or both. How does that make any sense? Unless you are specifically talking about just yourself and why won't FedEx just give you a bunch of money to go away, in which case, what do you care if there's a union or not?

If I was offered a dash for cash type of buyout I'd take it but believe it or not I'd certainly care about some of the friends of mine that are younger and still have to put with all the crap that they keep dishing out. Would I still hope a union would come in.? You bet I would and I would stand up and cheer like crazy if it did happen. I wouldn't affect me personally as much obviously but this company needs to realize it's the hard work of the non management staff that got Fed Ex where it is today.

I would certainly appreciate it quadro if you quit your extremely annoying habit of doing my thinking for me and twisting of words. I'll bet your real fun to live with.

 

[vantexan]

Correct.

Not so sure about that. Many managers don't make as much as their topped out couriers and swings who make overtime. And just what perks would those be? Company car? Nope. Better medical insurance than hourly employees? Nope. More vacation pay than hourly employees? Nope. And on, and on, and on. People don't become managers at FedEx because of the pay and perks./////*(They become mgrs because the potential is there to make good money down the road as a senior, because pay is better than a courier on 40 hrs, significantly better on my payscale, and work conditions are better. I've known plenty of mgrs who were former couriers who absolutely hated courier work)*//////

You already touched on this. If the company started laying off mgrs (not giving relocation assistance) they'd create an atmosphere where many mgrs would polish their resumes and start looking for jobs elsewhere.//////*(And have you ever talked to a mgr about their relocation? It's not just assistance, many make very good money on the deal. Meanwhile if we want a transfer we foot the bill, and are often lied to about work duties, etc to get us there. Totally different world.)*//////

Many of FedEx's managers came up through the hourly ranks. FedEx gets to a point where, because of a variety of controllable and uncontrollable circumstances, there are too many managers so they offer the buyout and didn't screw people over. And you're complaining about that????

//////*(Nope, not complaining, just pointing out some obvious differences between us and them. And there's a big divide between us and them.)*//////

 

[MrFedEx]

Regardless,they still offered buyouts when they could have just laid off.

Lay-offs weren't the issue. They were looking to cut costs by eliminating positions and increasing span of control. FedEx could have afforded to keep all of them, and actually lost some very good talent.

 

[quadro]

//////*(Nope, not complaining, just pointing out some obvious differences between us and them. And there's a big divide between us and them.)*//////

But one of the differences you pointed out was pay and perks. Manager pay isn't that great, at least not in the beginning and there are virtually no perks. As for relocation, it's not a secret. Just look up the policy. They get their household goods moved and about a month's salary. It would be great if that were true for hourly employees but the simple economics of it don't allow it to happen. Just look at how many hourly positions are posted each week compared to salaried. And it's not like hourly employees at other companies get relocation like that. I understand that you were lied to and that sucks but I've seen many, many employees transfer in and out and those that I've talked to have never said they were lied to. I'm sure you are not the only one but those seem to be the exceptions rather than the rule.

 

[quadro]

If I was offered a dash for cash type of buyout I'd take it but believe it or not I'd certainly care about some of the friends of mine that are younger and still have to put with all the crap that they keep dishing out. Would I still hope a union would come in.? You bet I would and I would stand up and cheer like crazy if it did happen. I wouldn't affect me personally as much obviously but this company needs to realize it's the hard work of the non management staff that got Fed Ex where it is today.

I think a lot of people would consider a buyout if offered and more power to them if they can get it. Any business, not just FedEx, would have to be overstaffed to offer buyouts to hourly employees. If they are overstaffed because business is down, spending millions (billions?) on a buyout could be the beginning of a death spiral for that company. If the business is not overstaffed, then why would you give people money to just go away? Either way it generally doesn't make good business sense to offer buyouts to hourly employees. That doesn't make it right or fair, it's just the way business works.

I would certainly appreciate it quadro if you quit your extremely annoying habit of doing my thinking for me and twisting of words. I'll bet your real fun to live with.

I wasn't doing your thinking for you. That would hurt my brain too much. I asked you a series of questions which you answered. How is that twisting your words? However, I do apologize if you took it that way. I didn't realize that only you were allowed to tell people what they think.

If you don't see any ice then you just think you're far away from it.

 

[mungrin]

Lay-offs weren't the issue. They were looking to cut costs by eliminating positions and increasing span of control. FedEx could have afforded to keep all of them, and actually lost some very good talent.

I agree.But why didn't Fedex just lay them all off?It would have been much cheaper.

 

[vantexan]

But one of the differences you pointed out was pay and perks. Manager pay isn't that great, at least not in the beginning and there are virtually no perks. As for relocation, it's not a secret. Just look up the policy. They get their household goods moved and about a month's salary. It would be great if that were true for hourly employees but the simple economics of it don't allow it to happen. Just look at how many hourly positions are posted each week compared to salaried. And it's not like hourly employees at other companies get relocation like that. I understand that you were lied to and that sucks but I've seen many, many employees transfer in and out and those that I've talked to have never said they were lied to. I'm sure you are not the only one but those seem to be the exceptions rather than the rule.

Obviously I haven't transferred into every station, but then those who take a survey don't ask everyone in a given locale, state, or country a question in order to get a sense of where the majority's opinion lies. A representative sampling if you will, with an acceptable margin of error. I think I've been to enough locations to form an opinion that it's very possible, even likely, that the hiring mgr will gloss over any local problems, and there's a real possibility that he/she will lie to you for any number of reasons to get you to take that position. That doesn't mean all will, just a heads up for potential transfers to be aware. And if you say most employees are never lied to, I'd say that you are doing exactly what you accuse MrFedEx of doing. How would you know what goes on in other locations? And as long as we're here, how would you know that the vast majority of employees are happy with FedEx overall? I don't know that either, but I do know, from much more extensive experience than you, that it is highly likely that mgrs will tell you whatever it takes to get the result they desire, and from that I can extrapolate that many mgrs see their employees as their inferiors who can be easily manipulated. And having observed that in quite a few stations, in different districts, and different regions I feel comfortable saying it's part of the corporate culture. That's not a gut feeling, or an inference, but based on many years of observation of over 50 mgrs and seniors. Enough to get a representative sampling. And again, I have stated before that they have a tough job that doesn't always bring out the best in people. But I've only known a few that truly seemed to care about their employees. Most I've known seem only to care what you can do for them.

 

[quadro]

Obviously I haven't transferred into every station, but then those who take a survey don't ask everyone in a given locale, state, or country a question in order to get a sense of where the majority's opinion lies. A representative sampling if you will, with an acceptable margin of error. I think I've been to enough locations to form an opinion that it's very possible, even likely, that the hiring mgr will gloss over any local problems, and there's a real possibility that he/she will lie to you for any number of reasons to get you to take that position. That doesn't mean all will, just a heads up for potential transfers to be aware. And if you say most employees are never lied to, I'd say that you are doing exactly what you accuse MrFedEx of doing. How would you know what goes on in other locations? And as long as we're here, how would you know that the vast majority of employees are happy with FedEx overall? I don't know that either, but I do know, from much more extensive experience than you, that it is highly likely that mgrs will tell you whatever it takes to get the result they desire, and from that I can extrapolate that many mgrs see their employees as their inferiors who can be easily manipulated. And having observed that in quite a few stations, in different districts, and different regions I feel comfortable saying it's part of the corporate culture. That's not a gut feeling, or an inference, but based on many years of observation of over 50 mgrs and seniors. Enough to get a representative sampling. And again, I have stated before that they have a tough job that doesn't always bring out the best in people. But I've only known a few that truly seemed to care about their employees. Most I've known seem only to care what you can do for them.

Neither you nor I truly have a large enough representative sample to give a definitive answer. We can use our own experiences and anecdotal evidence but that's about it. The only piece of information that we have that is a decent indicator is the SFA. I know MFE et al think it's fixed but if I'm not mistaken you've disagreed with that and I agree with you. I know there are people who right side their manager when they don't deserve it and when they do. I would guess there are people who left side their manager when the manager doesn't deserve it also. I think overall, if employees were being lied to and were unhappy as a rule, the SFA score wouldn't be anywhere near where it is.

How am I doing what MFE is doing? He tends to make sweeping, definitive statements. I don't pretend to have that much information that I could possibly do that. I said that employees being lied to seems to be the exception rather than the rule. And how do you know you've got much more extensive experience than me?

 

[MrFedEx]

But one of the differences you pointed out was pay and perks. Manager pay isn't that great, at least not in the beginning and there are virtually no perks. As for relocation, it's not a secret. Just look up the policy. They get their household goods moved and about a month's salary. It would be great if that were true for hourly employees but the simple economics of it don't allow it to happen. Just look at how many hourly positions are posted each week compared to salaried. And it's not like hourly employees at other companies get relocation like that. I understand that you were lied to and that sucks but I've seen many, many employees transfer in and out and those that I've talked to have never said they were lied to. I'm sure you are not the only one but those seem to be the exceptions rather than the rule.

A long-term manager in a major market is making good money. If you've got 15 years in and still have your sanity, you're making over 100k per year. You'll never see a buyout for hourlies IMO, because we're not union, and FedEx isn't under any obligation contractually to employees. They'd just lay us off instead. That would be the "people" thing to do.

 

[vantexan]

Neither you nor I truly have a large enough representative sample to give a definitive answer. We can use our own experiences and anecdotal evidence but that's about it. The only piece of information that we have that is a decent indicator is the SFA. I know MFE et al think it's fixed but if I'm not mistaken you've disagreed with that and I agree with you. I know there are people who right side their manager when they don't deserve it and when they do. I would guess there are people who left side their manager when the manager doesn't deserve it also. I think overall, if employees were being lied to and were unhappy as a rule, the SFA score wouldn't be anywhere near where it is.

How am I doing what MFE is doing? He tends to make sweeping, definitive statements. I don't pretend to have that much information that I could possibly do that. I said that employees being lied to seems to be the exception rather than the rule. And how do you know you've got much more extensive experience than me?

I'm certain I've worked for or with more mgrs and sr.mgrs in more stations than you. I've got enough experience to know not to accept what I'm told by mgrs on face value unless I already know it to be true. Too many times over the years things have been told to me directly, or to us in station meetings, that have turned out not to be so. But not to worry, if we're all so happy with everything then what's a little fib or two?

 

[MrFedEx]

Neither you nor I truly have a large enough representative sample to give a definitive answer. We can use our own experiences and anecdotal evidence but that's about it. The only piece of information that we have that is a decent indicator is the SFA. I know MFE et al think it's fixed but if I'm not mistaken you've disagreed with that and I agree with you. I know there are people who right side their manager when they don't deserve it and when they do. I would guess there are people who left side their manager when the manager doesn't deserve it also. I think overall, if employees were being lied to and were unhappy as a rule, the SFA score wouldn't be anywhere near where it is.

How am I doing what MFE is doing? He tends to make sweeping, definitive statements. I don't pretend to have that much information that I could possibly do that. I said that employees being lied to seems to be the exception rather than the rule. And how do you know you've got much more extensive experience than me?

I make so-called "sweeping" statements because I'm in contact with employees in many different parts of the country. Most have no idea that I post on here, nor do I try to push an agenda with them. They're just friends I've made by working at quite a few different stations over the years. Some are happy, but most aren't, and they are upset about the same stuff over and over again, particularly being pressured to falsify. FedEx keeps pushing for more, and since there are only so many minutes in a day, something has to give.

The excellent couriers can almost always adapt to anything. The less-skilled make up the difference in other ways and management looks the other way because there are a lot of second and third string couriers on the road these days. Fred doesn't want to pay for quality people, so he gets what's left....and they falsify and cut corners whenever they can in many cases.

 

[quadro]

A long-term manager in a major market is making good money. If you've got 15 years in and still have your sanity, you're making over 100k per year. You'll never see a buyout for hourlies IMO, because we're not union, and FedEx isn't under any obligation contractually to employees. They'd just lay us off instead. That would be the "people" thing to do.

Yes a long-term manager in a major market is making good money but so is a long-term courier in that same market, as compared to others in the same job in other markets. I know a manager in a major market who has over 30 years in and is not making 100K and it's not because they just became a manager. They've been a manager for the majority of their career. A buyout for hourlies isn't likely to ever happen as long as you are not overstaffed. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a union. Look how many times you've heard "hiring freeze" at Express. Whether you agree with it or not, it does help from being overstaffed. Generally companies that have seen significant downturns in business (i.e. GM, Chrysler) end up in a situation where a mass buyout may make sense. I would hope that FedEx is never in a position to offer a buyout as it would mean business is way down or hiring hasn't been controlled in the first place. Either situation isn't good.

I make so-called "sweeping" statements because I'm in contact with employees in many different parts of the country. Most have no idea that I post on here, nor do I try to push an agenda with them. They're just friends I've made by working at quite a few different stations over the years. Some are happy, but most aren't, and they are upset about the same stuff over and over again, particularly being pressured to falsify. FedEx keeps pushing for more, and since there are only so many minutes in a day, something has to give.

The excellent couriers can almost always adapt to anything. The less-skilled make up the difference in other ways and management looks the other way because there are a lot of second and third string couriers on the road these days. Fred doesn't want to pay for quality people, so he gets what's left....and they falsify and cut corners whenever they can in many cases.

I appreciate that you have a broad network of friends/acquaintances but I would guess that's still a very small percentage of all employees. Small enough to make your sweeping statements opinions and not fact. Which is exactly the same for me. As for being pressured to falsify, I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. Anyone that falsifies deserves what they get. This job is not that difficult and I say that not from my perspective but just look at any new couriers in your station. Some struggle but most don't take that long to get up to speed. So if it's the second and third string couriers that are falsifying, well they are probably in the wrong job to begin with.

 

[quadro]

I'm certain I've worked for or with more mgrs and sr.mgrs in more stations than you.

And you know this how?

 

[vantexan]

And you know this how?

I'm sorry, have you transferred to a lot of stations also?

Memphis Hub
Stamford, CT
Seattle BFIA
Seattle LKEA
Topeka, KS
Hattiesburg, MS
McAllen, TX
Santa Fe, NM
Salida, CO*
Leesburg, FL
Deming, NM*
Eagle Pass, TX*
Camp Verde, AZ
Kingman, AZ
Amarillo, TX
Lubbock, TX
Tyler, TX

*domiciled locations

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

van, when were you in Lubbock? I was stationed at Reese AFB from 1984-1989, my 2 kids were born at Lubbock General, I took classes at South Plains College and Wayland Baptist University, and we lived just off of the loop south of the mall before moving on base.

 

[vantexan]

van, when were you in Lubbock? I was stationed at Reese AFB from 1984-1989, my 2 kids were born at Lubbock General, I took classes at South Plains College and Wayland Baptist University, and we lived just off of the loop south of the mall before moving on base.

I was there 2007-2008. Lived at the Lubbock RV Park north of the loop near the airport. I delivered many times to the business park that was Reese.

 

[quadro]

I'm sorry, have you transferred to a lot of stations also?

Memphis Hub
Stamford, CT
Seattle BFIA
Seattle LKEA
Topeka, KS
Hattiesburg, MS
McAllen, TX
Santa Fe, NM
Salida, CO*
Leesburg, FL
Deming, NM*
Eagle Pass, TX*
Camp Verde, AZ
Kingman, AZ
Amarillo, TX
Lubbock, TX
Tyler, TX

*domiciled locations

Yes but no domiciles.

 

[vantexan]

Yes but no domiciles.

That's interesting, where?

 

[MrFedEx]

That's interesting, where?

Memphis, TN (cubicle)
Memphis, TN (desk)
Memphis, TN (computer terminal)
Memphis, TN (under desk)
Memphis, TN (larger desk)
Memphis, TN (under larger desk)
Memphis, TN (corner office)
Memphis, TN (under much larger desk)
Memphis, TN (corner office with "view" of Memphis)