US Gun Owners To Face Extradition And Foreign Prosecution

[wkmac]

BTW D, here's your new signature line

Me gusta la corbata y corbata me ama

Since you wanna play childish games! But then considering you it's completely understandable.

 

[diesel96]

How's that Tie Jr.!
LMFAO!!!!!!

You 2 are joined at the hip, it's becoming impossible to tell whose talking when either of you post!

BTW D, here's your new signature line

Me gusta la corbata y corbata me ama

Since you wanna play childish games! But then considering you it's completely understandable.

wow....a little touchy feely with the Tiny Tim comment ....so I'm refered to as a child....are you kidding me?

Me and Tie couldn't be farther apart on most issues except maybe for calling you out on anti gov't conspriacy theories, such as this;
myth .....and passing it on as truth.....here's a couple of myth busters to burst your bubble....

Sorry, I'm not buying the American/Mexican gov't conspiracy theories supplying the Cartels with the bulk of their weapons. Just a bunch of paranoid 2nd amendment wack jobs not fussing up to the realities and responsibilities of American guns gone wild in Mexico. NRA Excuses...Please, Talk about childish games.....in this game, people die. You've always been a straight shooter and hold the key culprits responsible, especially in Gov't. Why not in this case....why protect ir-responsibile gun profiteers hiding behind the 2nd Amendment causing havoc in Mexico and on our borders?....Does it go against your grain ?

 

[soberups]

Ok....so we seen how CNN's (Ind) Lou "aka Mexican mad-dog" Dobbs reports on this issue, now, only to be fair, lets see how CNN's mainstream media reports this ;

Why is it, that I feel perfectly comfortable that my guns aren't going anywhere, and so many out there are freaking out? If your not selling guns to shady characters, what do you have to worry about. Why protect these ir-responsible skumbag gun dealers who give us responsible gun owners a bad name. Who's kidding who, crooked gun-dealers feel they have the right to sell and make profits to any and every un-checked Tom, Dick, and "Pedro" that has cash, funnels these weapons to cartels, and don't care or take responsibility that 9 out of 10 bad guys in Mexico gets their hands on their assault weapons that are killing Mexican officials/citizens, and spilling into the US threaten own own officials/citizens....Lets face it, most who opposed to this support republican policies. Isn't this the party who claims that everyone should take the personal responsibilty approach, or is that just another proven busted myth....or at least admit, to a footnote stating gun dealers are excluded from personal responsibilities...

Here are some FACTS:

FACT #1 The grenade launchers and fully-automatic weapons that are being taken from the cartels are NOT being bought in the US. Such weapons are illegal here. They are being smuggled in from other countries, but the media has made it seem like we are selling them by the truckload.

FACT#2 "Straw purchases" are already a violation of Federal law. Simply passing more laws wont cause people to stop breaking the ones that already exist.

FACT#3 The real problem here is the corruption in Mexican law enforcement caused by the billions of dollars of cash coming from the US to purchase the drugs. Instead of harassing innocent Americans for excercising their 2nd Amendment rights, we should intead focus on the drugs that are at the root of the problem. Lets outlaw those illegal drugs!OOOPS we already did that....apparently making them illegal isnt working very well, is it?

The bottom line is that we need to address the corruption and have some sort of effective border security. Forcing us to register our guns and comply with meaningless, feel-good "bans" on certain types of guns isnt going to solve the crime problem in Mexico.

 

[diesel96]

Here are some FACTS:

FACT #1 The grenade launchers and fully-automatic weapons that are being taken from the cartels are NOT being bought in the US. Such weapons are illegal here. They are being smuggled in from other countries, but the media has made it seem like we are selling them by the truckload.

FACT#2 "Straw purchases" are already a violation of Federal law. Simply passing more laws wont cause people to stop breaking the ones that already exist.

FACT#3 The real problem here is the corruption in Mexican law enforcement caused by the billions of dollars of cash coming from the US to purchase the drugs. Instead of harassing innocent Americans for excercising their 2nd Amendment rights, we should intead focus on the drugs that are at the root of the problem. Lets outlaw those illegal drugs!OOOPS we already did that....apparently making them illegal isnt working very well, is it?

The bottom line is that we need to address the corruption and have some sort of effective border security. Forcing us to register our guns and comply with meaningless, feel-good "bans" on certain types of guns isnt going to solve the crime problem in Mexico.

About the only thing I agree with you Sober is Outlawing illegal drugs isn't working......everything else simply aren't facts, just unsubstantiated NRA-like claims...... I'll stick with the ATF Field Operations director and the DEA Inteligence administrator for my facts......you really need to read their report to the Senate Commitee on Crime and Drugs reporting on the responses to the Mexican Cartels...

 

[feederdriver06]

Here are some FACTS:

FACT #1 fully-automatic weapons .. . .. Such weapons are illegal here.

This varies state to state but full automatic if it was manufactured before 1986 are legal for civilians to own. They are registered with the department of the treasury. I will also add that they are expensive(M16 could cost you 15 thousand$) due to the fact that the number of weapons that fall into this category is limited to a few hundred thousand. Just wanted to throw that in the thread. At the same time these legally registered full autos aren't the guns that the cartels have and obtain and the legal owners of full autos should not become targets by the anti-gun trash in our government.

 

[wkmac]

This varies state to state but full automatic if it was manufactured before 1986 are legal for civilians to own. They are registered with the department of the treasury. I will also add that they are expensive(M16 could cost you 15 thousand$) due to the fact that the number of weapons that fall into this category is limited to a few hundred thousand. Just wanted to throw that in the thread. At the same time these legally registered full autos aren't the guns that the cartels have and obtain and the legal owners of full autos should not become targets by the anti-gun trash in our government.

Thanks for posting that. You might enjoy the column from Orlando Sentinel columnist Charley Reese from 2003'. Charley called it a day a year or so back but people still revive his many old columns from time to time.

I liked Charley's comments where he said:

A gun is neither a romantic nor a sinister object. It is just a plain tool, like a hammer, a saw or a router.

Funny, these days I have no lust for this

 

[brett636]

If you're determined to believe that, I can't stop you. But the purpose of this treaty is to target illicit international arms sales. You can read it here.
BTW, I'm not saying it's a good idea, I have my doubts about it. But to suggest that it's a precursor to Joe from Alabama getting dragged to the Hague to face a UN tribunal over his hunting rifle? You might need to loosen the straps on that tin foil hat just a tad....

I see no reason why I should have to register my guns to keep down the illicit trafficking of arms in Mexico. As already pointed out the trafficking of these weapons are already illegal. Ratifying treatise which affect the citizenry of this country by requiring us to tell the government what guns we own is not going to stop the mexican drug cartels from getting weapons to carry out their crime sprees.

BTw, I have not seen any indication that the ultimate desire for our President is not to disarm the average American citizen. With the Heller decision last summer he has only two ways to achieve this goal. The first is to sign, and ratify, international treatise in order to get around that pesky 2nd amendment. The second is to pack the supreme court with judges who will reinterpret the 2nd amendment such that it is decided to not be an individual right. The quickest and easiest method is the first which is why we are fed this BS reasoning claiming we need to restrict our right to bear arms in order to help Mexico.

 

[Jones]

I see no reason why I should have to register my guns to keep down the illicit trafficking of arms in Mexico. As already pointed out the trafficking of these weapons are already illegal. Ratifying treatise which affect the citizenry of this country by requiring us to tell the government what guns we own is not going to stop the mexican drug cartels from getting weapons to carry out their crime sprees.

BTw, I have not seen any indication that the ultimate desire for our President is not to disarm the average American citizen. With the Heller decision last summer he has only two ways to achieve this goal. The first is to sign, and ratify, international treatise in order to get around that pesky 2nd amendment. The second is to pack the supreme court with judges who will reinterpret the 2nd amendment such that it is decided to not be an individual right. The quickest and easiest method is the first which is why we are fed this BS reasoning claiming we need to restrict our right to bear arms in order to help Mexico.

If you believe that some secret, convoluted decades long scheme involving foreign treaties and domestic court packing is the quickest and easiest method to take your guns away, you haven't been paying attention. For starters, the US has a habit of ignoring treaties it doesn't feel like complying with, case in point being the UN convention against torture, to which we are a signed party. If Obama was really interested in using foreign treaties to pursue his domestic agenda, he could, right now, have every single republican official who was in any way involved in waterboarding under investigation and/or awaiting trial on charges relating to torture because the UN convention against torture requires him to so. Instead he, and we, are just ignoring it because we don't want to deal with it.
The Bush administration didn't need a foreign treaty to strip you of your 4th amenment rights, they just passed a law and took them away. That's how simple it is, and that's what will happen when the government wants to take your guns. There won't be any secret agenda, they will just pass a law and take them away. If I had to guess I would say it is most likely to happen the next time we have any sort of domestic crisis, because when people are scared they give away their freedom to anyone who promises to keep them safe. 9/11 proved that. It won't be a foreign country that comes to get your guns, it will be your local police.

 

[brett636]

If you believe that some secret, convoluted decades long scheme involving foreign treaties and domestic court packing is the quickest and easiest method to take your guns away, you haven't been paying attention. For starters, the US has a habit of ignoring treaties it doesn't feel like complying with, case in point being the UN convention against torture, to which we are a signed party. If Obama was really interested in using foreign treaties to pursue his domestic agenda, he could, right now, have every single republican official who was in any way involved in waterboarding under investigation and/or awaiting trial on charges relating to torture because the UN convention against torture requires him to so. Instead he, and we, are just ignoring it because we don't want to deal with it.
The Bush administration didn't need a foreign treaty to strip you of your 4th amenment rights, they just passed a law and took them away. That's how simple it is, and that's what will happen when the government wants to take your guns. There won't be any secret agenda, they will just pass a law and take them away. If I had to guess I would say it is most likely to happen the next time we have any sort of domestic crisis, because when people are scared they give away their freedom to anyone who promises to keep them safe. 9/11 proved that. It won't be a foreign country that comes to get your guns, it will be your local police.

I don't find much comfort in your notion that we will simply ignore the treaty if it were ratified. It should not be ratified period. While you may be right that it will be more local law enforcement involved in a total gun confiscation, how do you think they will know where to look for the firearms. A gun registration bill would be defeated quickly, but an international treaty disguised as a tool to help Mexico curb its drug violence is an easier pill to swallow, and is viewed as a little less politically dangerous for some blue dog democrats.

 

[soberups]

There won't be any secret agenda, they will just pass a law and take them away. If I had to guess I would say it is most likely to happen the next time we have any sort of domestic crisis, because when people are scared they give away their freedom to anyone who promises to keep them safe. 9/11 proved that. It won't be a foreign country that comes to get your guns, it will be your local police.

Confiscation of guns would violate not only the 2nd amendment, but many state constitutions as well. And from a logistical and tactical standpoint it would be physically as well as legally impossible to confiscate the 300 million guns that are beleived to be privately owned in this country. And a lot of police in rural areas would refuse to participate in such disarmament.

 

[soberups]

About the only thing I agree with you Sober is Outlawing illegal drugs isn't working......everything else simply aren't facts, just unsubstantiated NRA-like claims...... I'll stick with the ATF Field Operations director and the DEA Inteligence administrator for my facts......you really need to read their report to the Senate Commitee on Crime and Drugs reporting on the responses to the Mexican Cartels...

I read the report. Nothing in that report explains to me how violating the 2nd Amendment rights of law-abiding Americans will solve the violence and corruption in Mexico.

Unlike the USA, Mexico has extremely strict gun laws. For all practical purposes, private ownership of firearms is prohibited. Yet the murder and gun-violence rate on the Mexican side of the border is far higher. Apparently, their strict gun control laws arent working very well.

Also remember that the DEA and the ATF are government bureacracies which means that their #1 priority is to perpetuate their own existence and secure their place at the federal $$ trough. They dont want to solve problems, they want to prolong them. The ATF in particular is a corrupt agency that serves no purpose other than to abuse and harass law-abiding gun dealers.

 

[wkmac]

With all due respect for Jones position on treaties, his point about violating at will also being true, there is IMO a basis on my own reading in law libraries of treaties and case law that they can have a nefarious end of circumventing constitutional protections of State power. Even tax law has been greatly effected as some of the power of taxation currently enjoyed by the gov't comes about via international treaties signed over (believe it or not) opium and alcohol dating back to the early days of the 20th century.

But all that aside, I'm not convinced all guns will be rounded up as a result of this treaty. Now on the flipside, some might argue the Heller case sealed the deal for gun rights and IMO a case "could" be made that a treaty could in fact kill this decision. I said could not that it would so don't go bouncing off walls just yet. Politicians are like Pavlov's dog as their incapable of any real deep processed thought. They act only upon hearing the bell and typically that act can be predicted. It's another reason we get so much bad law and the well connected seem to prosper at the expense of most of us!

As for gun registration, we already have that and have had that for years. You fill out a form 4473 everytime you buy one. Now there are ways to circumvent to some extent but the vast majority of gun transactions are done to the letter in this manner and therefore, there is a paper trail to every gun from manufacturer to end user. Gun commits crime (calm down, having fun) gun obtained by police, police trace serial number from maker to store to owner and slap on the cuffs. Even my homocide cop neighbor when the Mexican guns thing first came to light said, "trace the numbers" and charge whoever with accessory at the very least. He worked with FBI and Interpol and he told me that he believes there is even meat in RICO that could be used since RICO is now being used against the gangs. If gangs are being charged under RICO with conspiracy, then charge whoever helps them with conspiracy as well.

The reason a treaty is coming up IMO is 2 fold. The hidden is, "somebody wants something" whatever that something is. That treaty is going to give someone or something some form of advantage and I don't think that advantage is taking all our guns or locking up all gun owners. Consider this, they lock up all gun owners in America and the entire American system collapses in a day. Yep, you heard me, a day! No workers, no business owners, no doctors, no electrical generating workers, no water company workers, "NO UPS DRIVERS" do I need to go on to make that point?
They be dumb but they not be that dumb.

Now the overt reason is purely for the entertainment value of us voting rubes out here in the real world. The politicians can use this legislation to show the home rubes I mean home folks that they are concerned about the Mexican violence and are doing something about it. Also they use "crisis" like this to convince the rest of us that we are not safe, we are at great risk and they are here to protect us and keep us safe. Without them we would surely die.

I say again, trace the numbers on the weapons to their sources and you can prove beyond doubt that these guns are being bought via local gun stores and then shipped south. Tracing the numbers is your strongest ally so why would the US gov't resist doing so?

It's funny how some people will bet the farm gov't is lying about Iraq and yet will bet the farm they don't lie elsewhere. If they fabricated a complete lie to justify Vietnam (this they have admitted in the Gulf of Tonkin incident) then what's to stop a lie with Iraq or a lie concerning guns in Mexico?

Trust is earned not given just because you win a beauty contest!

 

[feederdriver06]

One thing I can promise is that NO ONE is dis-arming me. My guns will be used on ANYONE that dares to be that stupid. And I will add that it wouldn't come down to me barricading myself in my house and waiting til my door gets kicked in. I will go on the offensive wearing a shirt with George Washington on it and kick some major ass.

 

[diesel96]

I read the report. Nothing in that report explains to me how violating the 2nd Amendment rights of law-abiding Americans will solve the violence and corruption in Mexico.

Your not "law abiding" if your knowingly and irresponsibly deal and profit from "cop killing" guns and ammo that end up in the hands of Mexican Gangs and Cartels. These lowlifes use and hide behind the 2A and the NRA supporters who could care less towards Mexican Federalie widows.....

Unlike the USA, Mexico has extremely strict gun laws. For all practical purposes, private ownership of firearms is prohibited. Yet the murder and gun-violence rate on the Mexican side of the border is far higher. Apparently, their strict gun control laws arent working very well.

You cannot be serious with that claim.....lol
Have you ever checked violent crime statistics in America. Have you ever checked violent crime per 100,000 people? Have you ever checked how many seconds a violent crime happens in America?

Also remember that the DEA and the ATF are government bureacracies which means that their #1 priority is to perpetuate their own existence and secure their place at the federal $$ trough. They dont want to solve problems, they want to prolong them. The ATF in particular is a corrupt agency that serves no purpose other than to abuse and harass law-abiding gun dealers.

If this is your belief, than you must trust Speaker Pelosi is telling the truth about the CIA as well.

One thing I can promise is that NO ONE is dis-arming me. My guns will be used on ANYONE that dares to be that stupid. And I will add that it wouldn't come down to me barricading myself in my house and waiting til my door gets kicked in. I will go on the offensive wearing a shirt with George Washington on it and kick some major ass.

You might want to skip your next testosterone shot there Rambo....

 

[wkmac]

WARNING: THREAD HIGHJACK!

feederdriver06

I just noticed your avatar. Testament fan are you? Thanks to the good folks at Sam Ash and the several thousand dollars out of my pocket for music gear we're headed off this Saturday night with free tickets and some other extra access goodies to see Testament. I'm partial to Northern European Black/Death metal myself but looking forward to seeing one of the iconic Frisco thrash bands that helped to launch the genre along with Metallica back in the day.


Maybe one day I'll make this my avatar

In the early 70's it would have been this

Anybody for music trivia?


Now we return to the regular scheduled programming!

Hmmm! Programming
Think as I say! Think as I say!

 

[partykid]

One thing I can promise is that NO ONE is dis-arming me. My guns will be used on ANYONE that dares to be that stupid. And I will add that it wouldn't come down to me barricading myself in my house and waiting til my door gets kicked in. I will go on the offensive wearing a shirt with George Washington on it and kick some major ass.

This sounds like my Dad talking!!!! He is a Class 3 machine gun dealer an Owner!! He gets a visit from the Feds about once every 2 months "checking records of sales with there records of him" an they joke with him... Were here to take ALL your guns, he jokes back WHO wants to die first!!! I think its funny, Its always the SAME FBI or ATF guys that show every time.

 

[wkmac]

VIN SUPRYNOWICZ: Discussing guns dubbed 'academic misconduct'

 

[wkmac]

The Montana Firearms Freedom Act seeks to exempt from federal regulation any firearm, gun component or ammunition made and kept within the state's borders. The legislation, signed by Democratic Gov. Brian Schweitzer, becomes law Oct. 1, though federal officials will likely act quickly to keep the measure from taking effect.

Legal experts are skeptical Montana will prevail in court, and even some proponents express their doubts. But supporters say the fight is a necessary step to change Washington's attitude. Similar bills have been introduced in nearly a half dozen states, and lawmakers in about a dozen more have expressed interest.

Western states want reins on federal power