Wake Up America

[wkmac]

The "Clean Break" document from 1996' that got it all started which laid the foundation for the current Mideast foreign policy and look at the names of the signators at the bottom of the document.

The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies Jerusalem, Washington


Institute for Advanced Strategic & Political Studies to quote their website from which the above document came from is:

"is a Jerusalem-based think tank with an affiliated office in Washington, D.C."

Even the Rand Corporation has spoken on the "Nation-Building" that our country has taken on for itself under the guise of safety and security.

RAND Review | Summer 2003 - Nation Building


In the 1990's, the republicans at every turn (and they were correct) slammed the Clinton adminstration and the democrat leadership for entangling the US in various "NationBuilding" endeavors. Yes the democrats and friends were "Empire Builders" with the best of them. However, that point of criticism got thrown to the wind once the 2000' elections were over. For example, one day before the election on 11/7/2000, Bush said the following to a crowd in Chattanooga Tenn.

"Let me tell you what else I'm worried about: I'm worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the military is for our military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place."

Bush Backs Into Nation Building (washingtonpost.com)

Was this criticism on the up and up? Read through the attached transcript of the 2nd Presidental Debate in 2000'.

CPD: 2000 Debate Transcript


The truth in hindsight based on the answers to the moderator was neither side was opposed to Nation Building, it just mattered on the reason why as to whether it was justified or not. IMO, Gore was just as much for Empire as Bush is but they may differ on where the focus should be. I also read with Gore's comments and as I've said on several posts before that had Gore been President on 9/11 we would have still ended up in Iraq under the same pretext and yes I believe that completely. It's also fair and IMO correct to say that the opposition by the republicans in the 1990's was not based on true policy difference but in reality not more that political grandstanding for political gain. Same is true of the democrats under the currect situation with Bush. It's not a choice of having or not having an American Global Empire but rather which side will direct the policy and weld the power!

Lastly on this issue, is this conspiratorial smoke and mirrors of the propaganda arm of the democratic (THOSE GODLESS WICKED LIBERALS) party of is this in reality a more complete insight to the thinking of the man who would become President 1 year before that fact and 2 years before 9/11?

Two Years Before 9/11, Bush was Already Talking About Attacking Iraq

At the outset, with reservation I supported the invasion of Iraq or at least give it middle ground in that something of a threat would emerge to justify even though I knew from history that Saddam was in power very much as a result of US foreign policy and aid as a result of opposing Iran and to some extent as a leftover from ColdWar policies. As time as gone forward however to many questions have arose that force me to rethink and change my opinion. IMO, nothing in the way of serious threat has emerged since the invasion and thus the public rush to justify the war on the grounds of saving souls from abuse and torture. It's funny how some of this stuff took place while Saddam had a working relationship with the US and we never utttered a peep.

As for Afghanistan, there was never any question IMO that Bush did the right thing in overthrowing the Taliban who gave state cover to Osama and Al Queda. Now why the same pressure hasn't been applied to Pakistan I don't know because I'm not convinced they've been forthcoming on Osama but in their defence I'm not certain full pursuit by the Bush Adminstration of Osama has been forthcoming either. Capture Osama and the American psyche changes to percieve the enemy has been defeated, all is well and War on Terror measures can be abolished and normal life return. In order to maintain a War mindset you need an enemy with potential so there you go. Psy-Ops is just a big and needed on the Home front as it is in the battle theater.

The British as a result of WW1 gained control of the old Ottoman Empire and their (British) own policies of land division have screwed this area up even unto this day. now we think we can solve these problems. We can't and won't. Best interest for America longterm in to develop an energy independent policy and we can tell this region to pound and eat sand and while we're at it tell Chavez to go sit on an oil well with the well tower looking for colon polops. If we establish this independence of energy and totally withdraw in all measures from these regions and jurisdictions and they in anyway harm us or openly declare to do so then we should have the guts to drop the big bomb and truly win the war. I believe many global problems are leftover effects from Coldwar US policy and we've created our own mess but if we withdraw and leave them to their own devices and they threaten us then I do believe it's justified to kill and win at all costs and if it means a mushroom cloud over their heads then so be it.

So before you try throwing back that tripe at me you better realize that at the end of the day I'm willing to go where even you dare not thread!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

And that government is doing such a bang-up job, aren't they?Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Worsens Terror Threat

"A stark assessment of terrorism trends by American intelligence agencies has found that the American invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks."

"The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by United States intelligence agencies since the Iraq war began, and represents a consensus view of the 16 disparate spy services inside government. Titled “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States,’’ it asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread across the globe. An opening section of the report, “Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement,” cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology.
The report “says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse,” said one American intelligence official."

Nothing but good news, eh Sunshine? Of course, I'm sure all those eggheads over at the CIA and NSA are a bunch of lying liberals who want us to lose, right? May you "sleep good tonight".


I'm starting to agree with Michael Savage. Liberalism IS a mental disorder. You leeches complain about the War on Terror and insist that the govt. fabricated the whole thing and meanwhile your fellow commies in your rogue "civil rights" groups do everything they can to stop our military from being able to do their job to the best of the capability. AND THEN HAVE THE AUDACITY TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RESULTS?!?!?! A "bang-up job" ? WAKE UP! There is only so much they can do over there because OVER HERE you liberals are crying and pissing your pants everytime our troops look at a prisoner wrong yet look the other way when the terrorists kidnap a civilian contracter and gets his head sawed off with a rusty knife. Or blame Bush every time we kill civilians that were being used as human shields by the terrorists. You can pull your little articles of the web all you want....you are still only undermining your own govt. and military who, BY THE WAY, are trying to protect your sorry, worthless, commie rear ends. Imagine if the liberal undermining would have happened during WW2 on the same scale it is now. We'd all be speaking German or Japanese on this board. And then rounded up as politcal prisoners for speaking our minds.

 

[Jones]

Ya know, I was initially tempted to respond to that last diatribe, but it's just so completely clueless and nonsensical I wouldn't know where to begin. At the end of the day it's probably just better to let it stand unmolested as some sort of garbled monument to ignorance. Good Job

 

[Slothrop]

Jones,
I'm with ya. Personally I think the best thing he could do is re-enlist. I'm sure he's under 42 years old. Of course, if he's really qualified, he could grab one of those [-]mercenary[/-] contractor jobs. They pay a whole lot better than humping boxes for Brown.

 

[wkmac]

Yep, there's not a thing in the world from the most reliable sources that I can give you that will top the awesome info that you'll get from a daily listening of Savage, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. You know, Limbaugh and even Hannity who started out locally in our radio market were quiet the gov't critic until GW got in office and then everything changed. It always does when you become the one with the connections to the guy that runs the place, especially the White House.

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

You know Lord Acton was probably a commie bastard as well so if he were alive today he'd be a worthless commie pinko ferret who should be shot on site as well for saying crap like that.

Great Thinkers: Lord Acton

Here's some more commie bastards who also distrusted gov't and what they had to say about it.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington

Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
George Washington

Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.
George Washington

If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference.
Thomas Jefferson

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.
Thomas Jefferson

I guess this one would leave ole' Tom at serious odds with Bush and company on the idea of building democracy around the world! Commie bastard would probably open his big mouth too if he were around today but rest easy as Micheal Savage would put him in his place!

And lastly from the Gipper himself:

Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty.
Ronald Reagan

Gentlemen, couldn't have said it better!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

OH LORD NO! Are two "cut and run" liberals teaming up on me??!! What am I to do??

You nuts can pull all those comments out of your arse all you want but what you don't realize is that using their quotes as some sad attempt to show any sort of correlation between the far left (liberalism) of today and the brand of govt. those good men invoked is not only a horribly bad comparison but even worse is an injustice to them. If any of those men had the responsibility of protecting this country now don't think they wouldn't have decided to bring the hammer down on terrorism just like Bush has. They'd probably have done so with even less restraint than Bush. But of course you liberals would probably have blocked them as well. You guys are hopeless and will never get it. The people we are fighting want us ALL dead. They don't play by the rules. They openly defy the rules. The only way to kill an enemy that is not willing to abide by the rules of warfare is to just kill them all. Liberalism is nothing but a road block in that regard. That is why we couldn't finish off the North Koreans when we had the chance, the NVA, and now the terrorists. Liberals might as well go fight for Al Qaeda. It's not about being able to express your opinions. You and your friends on the left side of the isle in DC are undermining the war. Whats sad is that the real reason they hinder the war effort is because they don't have one of their own sitting in the Oval Office. It's pathetic that someone would put their own country at risk simply because they have a grudge against the other party because they hold the office. Oh by the way....I am not a Bush fan by a long shot. But I'd rather have him calling the shots than a liberal any day.

 

[Jones]

There's no way you can be a real person, nobody could possibly be so completely ignorant. My guess is that you are doing a comic impression of a right wing, knuckle dragging mouthbreather as part of some obscure joke. That bit about the "liberals" being the reason we couldn't "finish off the North Koreans" is just priceless . I gotta admit you had me going for bit, but I'm on to you now. Funny stuff.

 

[retired]

There's no way you can be a real person, nobody could possibly be so completely ignorant. My guess is that you are doing a comic impression of a right wing, knuckle dragging mouthbreather as part of some obscure joke. That bit about the "liberals" being the reason we couldn't "finish off the North Koreans" is just priceless . I gotta admit you had me going for bit, but I'm on to you now. Funny stuff.

Jones, I see that you are copying the Slothrop's pattern of attacking other people with opinions that you don't agree with rather then sticking to the topic. So would the Slothrop be your idol or your mentor?

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Well think god these bozos have no political power otherwise we'd all be building mosques in our home towns in place of our own churches. Of course that would be right after we are told to keep our mouths shut because it would be politically incorrect to stop it. It's amazing the liberals that do have power haven't already managed to hand this country over to Islam.

 

[retired]

Big Arrow UP: you are also guilty of personal attacks.

You all need to re-examine your debate styles.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

This is not a college debate class. It is a simple political debate on a internet chat board so naturally there are mild personal attacks.

With that said....I am worried because there shouldn't be this much controversy when it is the safety of our country that is being discussed.

 

[wkmac]

OH LORD NO! Are two "cut and run" liberals teaming up on me??!! What am I to do??

You nuts can pull all those comments out of your arse all you want but what you don't realize is that using their quotes as some sad attempt to show any sort of correlation between the far left (liberalism) of today and the brand of govt. those good men invoked is not only a horribly bad comparison but even worse is an injustice to them. If any of those men had the responsibility of protecting this country now don't think they wouldn't have decided to bring the hammer down on terrorism just like Bush has. They'd probably have done so with even less restraint than Bush. But of course you liberals would probably have blocked them as well. You guys are hopeless and will never get it. The people we are fighting want us ALL dead. They don't play by the rules. They openly defy the rules. The only way to kill an enemy that is not willing to abide by the rules of warfare is to just kill them all. Liberalism is nothing but a road block in that regard. That is why we couldn't finish off the North Koreans when we had the chance, the NVA, and now the terrorists. Liberals might as well go fight for Al Qaeda. It's not about being able to express your opinions. You and your friends on the left side of the isle in DC are undermining the war. Whats sad is that the real reason they hinder the war effort is because they don't have one of their own sitting in the Oval Office. It's pathetic that someone would put their own country at risk simply because they have a grudge against the other party because they hold the office. Oh by the way....I am not a Bush fan by a long shot. But I'd rather have him calling the shots than a liberal any day.

First off, has those good men of the past been running this country, you are right they would have handled it! How? With there approach to extremely limited gov't we would not have been involved in foreign entanglements to be placed in that position in the first place. The only reason Osama came after us was because the Saudi royals refused Osama's request in 91' to use Al Queda and go into Kuwait and remove Saddam and instead brought in the US and it's coalition that placed infidels permenantly on what they consider holy ground. Before these events in 91' Osama and his hoard had no interest and had committed no acts towards us.

If you honestly believe all these folks are dangerous and yes, you are correct they are a danger, then have the guts enough to stand up and flatly say point blank that we should immediately Nuke them all and be done with it. Are you man enough?

Also are you willing to stand with me and declare we should withdraw from the UN, World Bank, IMF and the Import/Export Bank? I've believed for well over 25 years that we should have and still need to do that and to declare all aspect of the Bretton-Woods agreement null and void!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

First off, has those good men of the past been running this country, you are right they would have handled it! How? With there approach to extremely limited gov't we would not have been involved in foreign entanglements to be placed in that position in the first place. The only reason Osama came after us was because the Saudi royals refused Osama's request in 91' to use Al Queda and go into Kuwait and remove Saddam and instead brought in the US and it's coalition that placed infidels permenantly on what they consider holy ground. Before these events in 91' Osama and his hoard had no interest and had committed no acts towards us.

A limited govt. = limited military. Do you feel safe with a limited military batteling an enemy that will do ANYTHING to kill us?

If you honestly believe all these folks are dangerous and yes, you are correct they are a danger, then have the guts enough to stand up and flatly say point blank that we should immediately Nuke them all and be done with it. Are you man enough?

I have the guts but I don't believe nuking them first was the answer. We want to defeat our enemy (kill them all of necessary) but not taint an entire region of the planet and render it uninhabitable for hundreds of years. That is a last resort. We don't need to use nukes but if we keep fighting a politically correct war then we might later find ourselves in the situation where we have to use nukes. And it might be too late then. Remember....they have supposedly smuggled between 12-44 nukes in to the U.S. and if even a shred of that is true then we are screwed. I'm sure you realize what even one nuke would do to our economy. We would probably respond with a nuke but the implications would be disasterous. The best time to have whiped the terrorists out would have been in the beggining. Strike each and every camp and headquarters in every country with relentless air strikes. Maybe a MOAB here and there in Afghanistan to be sure none survive in caves. A MOAB is a relatively new bomb that has destructive power almost comparitable to a nuke but without the radiation. Ground troops would have only been used for "mop up" operations.

Also are you willing to stand with me and declare we should withdraw from the UN, World Bank, IMF and the Import/Export Bank? I've believed for well over 25 years that we should have and still need to do that and to declare all aspect of the Bretton-Woods agreement null and void!

I'm against the UN, World Bank, and the IMF. I was at home watching those dictators stand up and insult the the country they were guests of and my pre-school aged son could see that I was pissed. I was never a fan of the U.N. before but I could live with it. After watching Chavez speak I knew it was time to abolish the U.N. It's original purpose was reasonable but now it is just a waste of American tax dollars. At best the U.N.'s "peace keepers" are just tokens. Yeah they did a wonderful job in Mogadishu!

 

[wkmac]

A limited govt. = limited military. Do you feel safe with a limited military batteling an enemy that will do ANYTHING to kill us?

Absolutely because it would be an even bigger influence to insure that Washington DC doesn't involve itself in foreign entanglements that it should have never been involved in the first place. If you will study just a tad you would learn that 9/11, the 93' WTC bombing, USS Cole, etc. were not causes but were effects. I'm saying and do believe that remove the above (unlimited US gov't with global exspansion ideas) and yes you eliminate many of the root causes and these events would never have happened in the first place so the need for this mighty army for said purpose you so cherish would never have existed and therefore we have no massive bureacracy, no massive fed. debt, no excessive taxation needed to pay for and IMO life could be much better for all Americans.

Worse thing that ever happened in this country is the circumventing of the Constitutional process of Congressional Action of declaring all war efforts and instead allowing the President to authorize military efforts under the guise of the tag "Expeditionary Forces" and also the other favorite term of "Police Action."

but not taint an entire region of the planet and render it uninhabitable for hundreds of years.

You mean by "render it unhabitable for hundreds of years" like this?

Nagasaki Travel Guide

Hiroshima Travel Guide

Speech from President Dwight D. Eisenhower 3 days before completing his public life and the ending of his 2nd Presidental term:

But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs -- balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage -- balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable; balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual; balance between actions of the moment and the national welfare of the future. Good judgment seeks balance and progress; lack of it eventually finds imbalance and frustration.......


Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Public Papers of the Presidents, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1960, p. 1035- 1040

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

Oh my Gawd! Sounds like ole' Ike was a liberal pinko conspiratorialist too!
LMAO!!!!!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Absolutely because it would be an even bigger influence to insure that Washington DC doesn't involve itself in foreign entanglements that it should have never been involved in the first place. If you will study just a tad you would learn that 9/11, the 93' WTC bombing, USS Cole, etc. were not causes but were effects. I'm saying and do believe that remove the above (unlimited US gov't with global exspansion ideas) and yes you eliminate many of the root causes and these events would never have happened in the first place so the need for this mighty army for said purpose you so cherish would never have existed and therefore we have no massive bureacracy, no massive fed. debt, no excessive taxation needed to pay for and IMO life could be much better for all Americans.


Worse thing that ever happened in this country is the circumventing of the Constitutional process of Congressional Action of declaring all war efforts and instead allowing the President to authorize military efforts under the guise of the tag "Expeditionary Forces" and also the other favorite term of "Police Action."



You mean by "render it unhabitable for hundreds of years" like this?

Nagasaki Travel Guide

Hiroshima Travel Guide



Public Papers of the Presidents, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1960, p. 1035- 1040

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961



Oh my Gawd! Sounds like ole' Ike was a liberal pinko conspiratorialist too!
LMAO!!!!!

I can't believe liberals, or anyone for that matter, would actually put so much time an effort into trying to blame our own govt. for our enemys attacking us. If you liberals would put half as much effort into supporting YOUR country while it is at war then we might have already won! And you say it is because of "Global Expansion Ideas" ??? WRONG! The terrorists have been aiming for us since Israel was formed. Not because of your imaginary global expansion. What you don't realize is that the terrorists are the ones trying to expand. They admit it! Haven't you heard of "convert or kill"? Guess what...THAT MEANS YOU TOO!

 

[wkmac]

The Antifederalists Were Right - Mises Institute

You may not agree with the anti-federalist back in the day and the dire warnings they issued of things to come. You may even dislike the Pepperdine University economics professor (liberal no doubt) who has the gaul to raise such issues but it is rather ironic the words of warning 210 plus years ago and what we see today.

We would do wise to learn from the ancient Greeks who in their City-States with limited area of jurisdiction enjoyed vast freedoms as well as security via virtue of their dedication to liberty and their strength and then to watch it all waste away as they got lazy and allowed their leaders by means of greed and corruption to expand and then in time pass into the annuls of history to be nothing more than a history lesson that most students at best sleep through. Much the same could be said of Rome as it's own empirical desires combined with the slothfulness and decadent masses of people who give unquestionable and undying alligence to such powers in the end proved to be it's undoing!

Hey Big Arrow, I'll say this to save you the computer time......

I'm nothing but a commie pinko liberal!

You can go on to other important matters now that this point has been properly noted in order to keep the other leemings in line! Your masters will be proud that like Otis on Mayberry you have us all so well trained to keep us under thumb and we lock ourselves up with just your mental presence!

The MovieWavs Page - Three_Stooges: brodcast.wav

 

[CTOTH]

I can't believe liberals, or anyone for that matter, would actually put so much time an effort into trying to blame our own govt. for our enemys attacking us. If you liberals would put half as much effort into supporting YOUR country while it is at war then we might have already won! And you say it is because of "Global Expansion Ideas" ??? WRONG! The terrorists have been aiming for us since Israel was formed. Not because of your imaginary global expansion. What you don't realize is that the terrorists are the ones trying to expand. They admit it! Haven't you heard of "convert or kill"? Guess what...THAT MEANS YOU TOO!

If these 'liberals' are anything like me then they aren't blaming our gov't for the attacks but rather the incompetency that surrounds the retaliation.
$400 billion, you'd think that kind of sum would fund something a little more strategic.

 

[wkmac]

If these 'liberals' are anything like me then they aren't blaming our gov't for the attacks but rather the incompetency that surrounds the retaliation.
$400 billion, you'd think that kind of sum would fund something a little more strategic.

The way I see it, why not put a $1bil bounty out on Osama's head and name a few others at the same time for effect and save yourself $399bil and numerous American lives!

Damn, that's to freakin' easy!


BTW:Excellent point CTOTH!

 

[wkmac]

The White House Warden - Los Angeles Times

Read this op-ed but stop thinking so one-dimensional and consider future Presidents and how they might vastly abuse this power in order to protect their own. Remember this one very important fact of history, Hilter was elected to office in a completely democratic process. If a child molester like Mark Foley can gain power and then hide his true colors and even have others help him, then it's entirely possible for someone with dire designs on America's Freedom to also do the same and then use this kind of legislation to protect themselves if the threat to their power ever arose from the arena of political action.

For those of you who wail and cry about the Clinton folks and the dark vast reaches of their evil desires, consider them having this kind of power back in the day! Oh yeah, isn't someone related to former President Clinton thinking about a White House run in 08'? Could you be backing you're own worst nightmare? Bye-Bye vast right-wing conspiracy and boy do they paint that with a broad, wide brush!



With Sex Scandels abounding everywhere and immense grabs of power into a single point, all we need now is murders among the leaders as they take each other out for political advantage and this would be Rome Version 2. And we all know how Rome ended.

You may hate Osama but could it be he's studied history and has seen time and time again how these things always play out and knows because of our own corruption as a society that own end is getting closer? Buzzards, vultures and other consumers of the dead only gather and prepare to feast when they see the victim in it's throws of death. Have you ever thought that maybe our biggest strength and greatest weapon against our enemies would be to have a moral and just gov't and a moral, just and civil society? Feeders of the dead never gaither around a healthy and viable being.

The O’Reilly Fear Factor by Jacob G. Hornberger

Amen especially to the last paragraph at the above link!

 

[wkmac]

BTW: Another good op-ed worth reading and thinking on. Nice piece Justin and the connections with the 1798' Sedition Act was excellent.

Are You an 'Unlawful Combatant'?- by Justin Raimondo