War

[JustTired]

Putting our troops in harms way with out supporting them is unamerican.

The vote was there to send them . the vote should be there to support them and make sure they have everything they need.

What a horrific thought to send troops out to battle and to then pull the funding for them?
I don't understand how you can defend that concept.

The withholding of funds would not put our troops in harms way. This funding was a projection. It's not like the money would be gone the day after the vote. There would have been plenty of time to adjust the course of the war and rethink strategies.

and now we see that Iraq is actually turned for the better. Our troops have done a terrific job under trying circumstances.

god bless them all.

Yes , things are somewhat better over there. If you're talking about the number of American casualties. But that is not the only yardstick we should be measuring accomplishment by.

No argument from me on the performance of our troops. It's the performance of our elected officials I have problems with.

 

[tieguy]

Just Tired,

Your post was well said.

Taking control over the goverment and the country is exactly what is needed. We are a nation of people, not a nation of a political party.

Obama may not be the best candidate in the country, but he is the better choice for america.

Every country he visits, he is greeted by thousands of supporters. NOT HECKLERS and HATERS like when BUSH visits another country.

Sending a clown out would gather the same positive response but does not dicatate a viable presidential candidate.

There isnt a country on the face of the earth that Pres Bush can visit without having to face thousands of protesters and haters.

Whats that line about about doing whats right not doing whats popular?

As for Tieguys view of Iraq being a beacon for democracy in the middle east and thereby in the future shedding some positive light on BUSH, well, to that I say, dont hold your breath.

Nation building will not change the way the middle does business.

Bigger fish then that. I call region building. Build a democrat model to die for. Then watch the adjoining countries capitualate to a free society. West germany during the end of the cold war is an excellent model of this concept.

As I have said many times, the BUSH administration always wants to treat the symptoms and not the problem.

IE: If i have a stomach problem and go to the doctor and get examined only to find out that i have stomach cancer, and the doctor decides that the way to treat the pain (symptom) was to give me some pepto bismol to make me feel better, will that cure the cancer ?(problem) What if the doctor just gave me more and more pepto bismol? Will that cure the
cancer?

Bush didn't give you pepto bismal. He cut the cancer out and took half your midsection with it. Now comes the plastic surgery as he rebuilds you better then new.

Same in the middle east.

The problems of terrorism and the root causes of terrorism are not being addressed. Saudi Arabias funding of terrorists in many countries and the arming of the SUNNI Arabs in Iraq which are responsible for the majority of deaths of US personnel in Iraq is NOT EVEN ON THE TABLE with the BUSH administration.

Saudi Arabia provides more ARMS and MONEY into Iraq than IRAN does, yet, BUSH and his followers want to focus on IRAN.
(sypmtom/problem)

Prove it. Prove the country of saudi arabia is doing what you say.

In the begining, the concept was IRAQ was going to be invaded and the other muslim countries would fall in line after watching the US power (shock and Awe).

That was never the goal of Iraq.

This didnt happen. There are more terrorists today that hate the US today than prior to invading Iraq.

more of them dying on foriegn soil then before the invasion.

This is the BUSH legacy.

You all can wave your flags and wear your pins and pray every sunday, but it wont change this fact.

Our future as a Nation has only been threatened further by the Actions of the the Bush administration.

Really . How many terrorist attacks did we have on our soil prior to Iraq. How many since Iraq.

What time frame will an attack happen? Who knows. It took 10 years to plan and carry out 911. Bush has been in office for 7 1/2. Are we safe?

We didn't have 10 terrorist free years prior to 9/11 . we were constantly being attacked by terrorist before 9.11. We have enjoyed peace at home thanks to bush. We finally had the balls to go after the terrorist thanks to bush. We just keep turning the other cheek before Bush.

With the failures of the Bush domestic policies, the US dollar is worthless against foriegn currency (euro) and this has only made the middle east countries richer and cash rich ( in the quadrillions)

Dollar moves in constant cycles. Bush did not invent it.

Where do you think this cash is going? The stock market? The Bush administration has only made our enemies richer and this country poorer.

Man you're really making this stuff up.

A shifting of wealth.

Problem is that the wealth that the terrorists have, makes the war on terror harder because they can NOW buy the weapons they couldnt buy 5 years ago.

Show your stats. I'd love to now what auditor is tracking terrorist wealth.

This is the Bush legacy.

All the battle hymms in the world wont change this fact. All the flag pins in the world wont protect our troops from these weapons.

You've said that a few times now, does that mean we stop supporting our troops?

In Iraq, the rebels (anti US presence Iraqis) are better armed today than prior to the us invasion.

Really Al Zahawri was living better then in bagdad.

Supporting our troops has nothing to do with supporting the policy. Shall I support a policy that ends up in the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians?

How about one that protects millions of american civilans like his has.

Just the other day, US troops stormed a house they believed to be housing terrorists, after the shooting ended, the questions began, in the end, the marines killed the son of the Iraqi govenor in a case of mistaken identity.

You love badmouthing the marines.

Shall I support this policy??

How many innocent people have to die, in order to create this light that will shed on the BUSH legacy??

Zero have died since 9.11. Oh thats right you don't care about the safety of americans.

We can all slap each other in the face on this board and remain divided, or we can start finding some common ground by extracting rhetoric and political propaganda and find a way to protect america together as americans.

Dude I may need the space shuttle to meet you half way. you are way out there.

It is looking very good for OBAMA in Nov, his numbers look good in every state.

Good for him. Should we swear him in now or just go ahead and hold an election for kicks and giggles?

McCain only offers more of the same....and he isnt looking very good at all.

hey I agree with this one , the guy is kind of old and wrinkled from all that experience he has.

A major slap in the face for the BUSH/McCAIN administration when the Iraqi pm confirms he wants the US out of Iraq by 2010.

What Bush/mccain administration? Are you recommending a third term for Bush?

You guys have to hear this....we do not know whats best for Iraq, the Iraqis know whats best for them.

Sure do. Death Squads, suicide bombings, rape , murder , Sadaam hussien. Mass graves. Right on brother.

Peace

 

[diesel96]

I don't see how conservatives claim to have the patent. I believe there are quite a few liberals who may disagree with the war but support our troops. Your version of patriotism is to badmouth the country you live in.

I'm sorry for your tunnelvision for not seeing that conservatives claim patents and ownership to anything red white and blue, or anything with the word troops in it, but anyone who's not a card carrying Republican can clearly tell thats been the GOP ammo for years.
Why can't those who share your views comprehend that badmouthing America's current disingenuous leadership is not badmouthing the country, but only promotes the betterment of our country. If you believe badmouthing the president is unpatriotic or anti-american, what would you call yourself during the Clinton years?

There are no easy answers here. We saw what isolationism did for us prior to world war II and yet I don't enjoy sending our troops out into harms way.

Where have all the traditional republicans gone, because obviously your are not one. Back in the WWI and WWII days we did fight for our freedoms and way of life. Now the Gov't you worship is lying and trying to use that excuse for putting our troops in harms way in Iraq.

Your worst nightmare would be that Iraq which has changed for the better might someday be the beacon of democracy in the middle east. If that happens then it vaults Bush into a very postive light when the historians write his legacy. You will cringe when that happens while we will rejoice that we recieved such a benifit in return for the loss of our sons and daughters.

When that fantasy video comes out on Sony Playstation 2, I'm sure you'll be the first one in line. There's no rejoicing the loss of our sons and daughters (and injured) from war in Iraq. Just sorrow and sadness for the familes of our troops and a ire towards this administration.


In fact your attitude and that of others here is so anti-american that I often find myself wondering if you get some sick satisfaction at seeing our soldiors die.

You are so far from the truth it's sickening. Most of you Bush supporters realize by now that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and was a hack job to go in an attack. Yet you the GOP, @ (and a spineless congress) continue to support and prolong the quagmire this administration got us into. Instead of ending the conflict when Bush announced "mission accomplished" your supporting the un-neccessary deaths and dis-memberments of our sons and daughters over nation bldg, occupation, oil and warfare profiteering.

If not then whats wrong with wearing our pins and waving our flags in support of our troops.

Nothing wrong with wearing and waving our flagpins and flags on cue, but holding our gov't accountable and actions speak louder than chinese manufactured trinkets of american symbols.

 

[wkmac]

WAR: Who Decides?


About the author:
Doug Bandow is the Robert A. Taft Fellow at the American Conservative Defense Alliance and author of Foreign Follies: America’s New Global Empire (Xulon Press). A former special assistant to President Ronald Reagan, he is a graduate of Stanford Law School.

Bandow quotes Elbridge Gerry in his piece and one of my favorite quotes from Gerry which looking over the recent discourse seems to me to be applicable here.

"The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are dupes of pretended patriots"

 

[BrownShark]

DeNIEGUY,

What is it about this war thats makes you so gung ho?

Is patriotism the only thing in your mind? You asked me to prove the Saudis were arming the iraqis, ok, I guess youre out of the loop on facts on this one.

Ok, here are a few resource links for you to convince yourself.

https://web.archive.org/web/2006052...004News/Statements/TransDetail.asp?cIndex=481

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp504.htm

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/937fxvva.asp

Man, you are out of touch with the realities in IRAQ.

Peace

 

[av8torntn]

This from one of the articles bs linked to that applies directly to what he says about Saudi Arabia.

"The statements he has made with regard to Saudi Arabia have been irresponsible and are not borne by the facts."

"Allegations that he has made about Saudi Arabia have been debunked by the 9/11 Commission report."

 

[tieguy]

DeNIEGUY,

What is it about this war thats makes you so gung ho?

BS results make me gung ho. And our troops have done a great job and are getting results. Iraq is being rebuilt into a beacon of democracy.


Is patriotism the only thing in your mind? You asked me to prove the Saudis were arming the iraqis, ok, I guess youre out of the loop on facts on this one.

patriotism is one part of me. The question is where is your head at the way you try to put down our marines every time you have the chance. where is your head when you try to put this country down every chance you get?


Ok, here are a few resource links for you to convince yourself.

https://web.archive.org/web/2006052...004News/Statements/TransDetail.asp?cIndex=481

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp504.htm

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/937fxvva.asp

Man, you are out of touch with the realities in IRAQ.

Peace

BS I see your links but I don't see what I was looking for. Where is the proof that the country of Saudi Arabia is funding the insurgency. Saudi ARabian individuals do not mean the same thing. Heck I'm sure we have a few americans over here funding the iraq insurgency. You're probably one of their biggest supporters.

 

[brazenbrown]

Obama may not be the best candidate in the country, but he is the better choice for america.
My , how do you explain McCain and Obama being neck and neck in the polls. If Obama The Great really represents change and it's so damn awful now why isn't he winning by a landslide??

Every country he visits, he is greeted by thousands of supporters. NOT HECKLERS and HATERS like when BUSH visits another country.
There isnt a country on the face of the earth that Pres Bush can visit without having to face thousands of protesters and haters.

You have taken the Koolaide from the Obama media circus just like all your cousins. What a shame you can actually believe this farse

As I have said many times, the BUSH administration always wants to treat the symptoms and not the problem.

You keep saying things that further weaken your point...Think about it, G.W. took us right to the problem. The dems would have been wringing their collective hands and maybe shooting off a few fire crackers thus not really taking care of the problem at all !!

In the begining, the concept was IRAQ was going to be invaded and the other muslim countries would fall in line after watching the US power (shock and Awe).
This didnt happen. There are more terrorists today that hate the US today than prior to invading Iraq.

You care that terrorist hate you?? Gosh, I was kinda hoping they'd be our best friends..

You really need to stop reading those radical left wing hate America blogs. The United States took a vote believing Saddam had WMD's, both sides agreed, remember they had a vote (except for Obama who was just getting his diapers off) we gave Saddam plenty of warning. Just because they'd carted the WMD's off to Syria doesn't mean they didn't have them before we got there.
Saddam is gone and his bloody ways with his very own people went with him. Some of the leaders that your buddy Obama was talking to in Iraq would not be there had we not gone in. And now there is a real chance for democracy and some stablization of a country in a pivotal place in the world that can make the world a safer place.

A major slap in the face for the BUSH/McCAIN administration when the Iraqi pm confirms he wants the US out of Iraq by 2010.

Already debunked that twisted play on words..

You guys have to hear this....we do not know whats best for Iraq, the Iraqis know whats best for them.Peace

That's why we got rid of their ruthless dictator for them. That's why we've been training their military so they can protect themselves. Yes, the Iraqis with our help really do know what's best for them

 

[wkmac]

Where is the proof that the country of Saudi Arabia is funding the insurgency.

Tie,
I can't say there is hard, fast proof of direct Saudi gov't funding but Saudi Arabia's gov't is not in a typical sense of what we are use to in this country. The closest thing IMO that we might understand it here in the west is Nepotism on a rather grand scale. That said.

The whole allegation got started when someone in the Pentagon said that money to insurgents in Iraq was coming from Saudi. Here's a more direct quote from a USA story on 10/21/2004'.

A significant part of the insurgents' money is coming from sympathizers in Saudi Arabia, and the Saudi government is neglecting the problem, said the official, who was authorized by the Pentagon to speak on the issue this week, but only on condition of anonymity.

link to USA article:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-10-21-insurgents-cash_x.htm

The assertion seemed to be that the Saudi gov't or Saudi royals if you will were "neglecting the problem" which suggests to me anyway that they knew. CNN also picked up on the story and had this http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/26/saudi.money.iraq/index.html which ironically was Oct. 26, 2004', the same day of the transcript as BS linked above which was posted by the Saudi Embassy at their website.

After this story broke, the Saudi gov't hired a PR firm and TV and radio ads at the time were played across America as the Saudis tried to repair the damage. I remember seeing some of those commercials and hearing them on radio and I'd forgotten all about them until actually your and AV's comments made me go back and look again at BS's post and then look at the links.

As to the actual comments at the Saudi Embassy website, the USA article along with others stirred the pot and Wolf Bliter did a story the evening on Oct. 26th which the transcript as I said is posted. Sen. Bob Graham had made the follwoing comments in light of these Pentagon allegations in which he said the following: direct from the transcript as reported by CNN reporter Zain Verjee

BLITZER: CNN's Zain Verjee joining us now live from the CNN Center -- Zain.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the U.S. military is indicating rebels in Iraq appear to be getting a little help from friends across the border in a country that is a U.S. ally.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) VERJEE (voice-over): Iraqi insurgents need cash to kill. According to recent U.S. military intelligence reports, those insurgents depend on external donors for financing attacks, attacks the U.S. believes are being bankrolled by some Saudi money. U.S. Senator Bob Graham tried to turn it into a campaign issue on CNN's ‘LATE EDITION’.

SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D), FLORIDA: I believe a real test of leadership for President Bush would be to let the American people know what the Saudis are doing and what he intends to do about it, if he continues as president.

VERJEE: The Pentagon believes wealthy Saudi individuals and charities sympathetic to Iraqi rebels are providing the cash. U.S. officials say that money is being funneled through Syria, a charge the Saudi government rejects. Nonetheless, the report has raised questions for some about Saudi Arabia's commitment to the U.S.-led war on terror.

GRAHAM: That was a disingenuous ally during September the 11th, has continued to take steps that are adverse to our interests in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places around the world.

VERJEE: A senior Saudi official says this view is distorted and motivated merely by election-year politics. The Kingdom adds, it has taken substantive steps to combat terrorism.
​

Then ADEL AL-JUBEIR, ADVISER TO SAUDI CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH responded when Blitzer asked him to respond to what Sen. Graham had to say. again direct quote from the transcript linked above.

And joining us now from Washington to discuss these serious allegations is Adel Al-Jubeir. He is the chief Saudi foreign policy adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah. Adel Al-Jubeir, thanks very much for joining us.

ADEL AL-JUBEIR, ADVISER TO SAUDI CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: Thank you.

BLITZER: You know Senator Bob Graham. He is a serious man, former chairman of the Intelligence Committee. You think this is election-year politicking on his part?

AL-JUBEIR: Because he's a serious man, I find it hard to believe that he actually believes what he says. The statements he has made with regard to Saudi Arabia have been irresponsible and are not borne by the facts. We have been serious in combating terrorism because terrorism is out to murder our people and our residents. Allegations that he has made about Saudi Arabia have been debunked by the 9/11 Commission report. He proceeds to write a book repeating those same allegations. It seems to me that where he is getting his information, it's not very reliable.

I highlighted the above statements in red to show that what AV quoted was exactly word for word. I won't disagree for one moment that Graham was out for political mileage but I'm not willing to disregard the allegations made by the Pentagon and released in a DIA report that even Blitzer refers to in the transcript.

Global Security reported at their website in July of 2005' on an official report to the Congress on Iraqi insurgent funding among the source countries mentioned was Saudi Arabia.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2005/07/iraq-050728-usia02.htm

It does not name or identify the Saudi gov't or royal family but it does leave open to question just how much effort they are putting into this "War on Terror!" Recently they did make some large scale arrests in country relating to alleged Al Qeada bomb threats to oil production facilities but did they do this more out of protecting their own source of wealth? We can only speculate. I said alleged referring to Al Qaeda but the fact is the Osama and friends want to bring down the Saudi royal family just as much as they do the west and for that fact just about all the other govt's on the Middle East countries. He sees them only as corrupt western puppets.

You made the mistake of asking and since you and AV opened your mouths and got me curious, there's some of the history!



Maybe next time you'll let sleeping dogs "LIE!"


​

 

[feeder53]

As with all conflicts, there are a number of agendas being serviced. War is ugly. We have seen the people on both sides suffer and the inocent die too. I have seen the wall of photos in this building of those that paid the ultimate price and there is not a minute in time when i do not think of the soldiers that walk these halls and may never see again. But for the grace of God........Find the cost of freedom, burried in the ground...

 

[av8torntn]

You made the mistake of asking and since you and AV opened your mouths and got me curious, there's some of the history!

​

OK now you have me curious. I am guessing you agree with BS when he says that the Government of Saudi Arabia is supplying more arms and money to the insurgency than the government of Iran and he has proof of this. I do not think that what you posted was proof and and I know what he posted was not proof. I'm not sure you guys are wrong but I do have my doubts that you two have proof but I'd sure be interested in seeing it if you do. You posted a good tease and I'm pretty sure you must have more than a couple of charities.

 

[wkmac]

OK now you have me curious. I am guessing you agree with BS when he says that the Government of Saudi Arabia is supplying more arms and money to the insurgency than the government of Iran and he has proof of this. I do not think that what you posted was proof and and I know what he posted was not proof. I'm not sure you guys are wrong but I do have my doubts that you two have proof but I'd sure be interested in seeing it if you do. You posted a good tease and I'm pretty sure you must have more than a couple of charities.

Understand the history of the Arab/Persian, Sunni/Shia and the clarity of the answers are unbelievable.

You and Tie made comments that provoked me to go back and look at what BS said and his links which to be quite honest I had completely ignored. No offense BS because you did make some good points. That said however, I went back and looked a bit deeper into the matter and thus you have the post I made.

As to the Saudi's and weapons? In all fairness to you AV, I don't see myself having siad that but if so then pardon me, it was not my intent.
To quote me from the post in question:

It does not name or identify the Saudi gov't or royal family but it does leave open to question just how much effort they are putting into this "War on Terror!"

However I do have my doubts and from your post sounds like we share in that fact.

I do howeve believe the Saudi's were flowing in money but not for the reasons being spun. From the news of that time, sounds like the Pentagon and a DIA report were comingto the same conclusion. Maybe you should take issue with you higher command!
Laughing with ya not at ya.

Again, you have to understand the underlying context of the Sunni/Shia conflict (as well as the Arab/Jew history) and then Saudi money flow makes sense and from their POV seems reasonable. Even our own gov't at that time was flowing in arms, unintended consequences maybe http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501299.html and again, if you understand the Sunni/Shia context you'll understand why and no it wasn't about Al -Qaeda as much as some in gov't like to spin that story.

Had the truth been told, it's possible many Americans who hold an anti-Iranian POV may in fact agree with it. I mean the Israeli's did and why do think the Saudi's have been silent and I mean completely silent concerning the recent talk about Israel and the US attacking Iran? Objections from a country who loaned billions in the 1980's to Saddam Hussein in his war with Iran? Study into that issue and understand how all of that caused the Kuwait invasion and the nearly 20 year conflict with Iraq.

This is way beyond Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, WMD and even oil. I've said before you have to understand the history and tradition of the region but you also have to read the dry, terribily boring research and white papers of the policy wonks that run gov't. Whoever the Presdient is can't even tie his own shoes without some wonk telling him just the exact way in order to effect some outcome. It's all about the mechanitile state these days.

 

[wkmac]

Since we're talking War or as FDR would famously say, "WHAR!" and with Obama making his big speech in Berlin, I read this at Truthdig yesterday that IMO covers a lot of interesting ground.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080722_obama_on_the_brink


I can see where some admissions by Zbigniew Brzezinski may cause some upset here among some of the Donkey loyalist! And what Robert Gates, from Carter advisor and now Bush Sec. of Defense said of that era should peg the needle!

At the same time, contary to popular myth, Carter also had a hand in the fall of the Soviet empire with the Carter doctrine concerning the Persian Gulf and Gates correctly documents that fact. It was the Carter Doctrine spelled out in the 1980' State of the Union address that proclaimed US claim to the Persain Gulf region that we would protect at all cost. This launched CIA ops in Afghanistan (or rather ex post facto authorized) to stop the Soviet march towards access to the Gulf and it's own ideas about oil and their own pipeline.

It was this economic weapon that further eroded Soviet strenght which made Reagan's rouse of Star Wars work even more effectively. Reagan in many ways finished what Carter started in downfall of the USSR but we credit Reagan for it all. At the same time Clinton started the downfall of Saddam when he signed into law in October 98' the Iraq Liberation Act that called for Regime change in Iraq. His first strike was in Dec. of 98' with operation Desert Fox and although the stated goals were to drive Saddam to comply with certain international demands, IMHO it's true underlying goal was to provoke Saddam into a rash response that would justify an all out US invasion all to the liking of the Bush era neocons at Project for New American Century and their infamous letter sent to Clinton earlier in 98' calling for an invasion. The dummie spinners (we being the dummies) are in the meantime running around yelling "wag the dog", "wag the dog" which in hindsight for the wonks was great cover. You think for one moment the neocons wanted to be seen in some alliance with Clinton and visa versa over foreign policy strategic thinking and economics?

I'm telling ya folks, these guys are all on the same team but only roadblock long enough to get in power themselves so they can take the credit. Why do you think Congress lockeddown this week over doing something about oil? Neither side wanted the other to get election mileage from it. And in the meantime?

Wake up people!

 

[av8torntn]

As to the Saudi's and weapons? In all fairness to you AV, I don't see myself having siad that but if so then pardon me, it was not my intent.

Ok I thought you might have been holding something back.

In all fairness to me the original comparison was to the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia. We have now at the least seen pictures and video of military weapons from Iran captured in Afghanistan and Iraq. We know they are giving safe harbor to at least Al Sadr. No need to go into all the things the government of Iran has been doing but I was just thinking you might have something along those lines about Saudi Arabia.

 

[wkmac]

Ok I thought you might have been holding something back.

Oh, I'm always holding back. But as the ole saying goes, "You can't handle the truth!"


In all fairness to me the original comparison was to the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia. We have now at the least seen pictures and video of military weapons from Iran captured in Afghanistan and Iraq. We know they are giving safe harbor to at least Al Sadr. No need to go into all the things the government of Iran has been doing but I was just thinking you might have something along those lines about Saudi Arabia.

I'll agree with the "in fairness to you" part and I'll totally agree that arms were flowing from Iran. To be fair to me, that was never in dispute on my part.

Bottomline for me, Iran and Saudi were using Iraq as a type of killing zone via the civil war to wage a Sunni verses Shia, Arab verses Persian war that has waged off and on for millenia. It's an age old thing that goes way back. Al Qaeda was involved but IMO they were minor players and were more a parasite having piggybacked onto a diseased host. Al Qaeda knows for one, they have no chance in hell in Iran and fact is they have no real large lasting chance in Iraq either. The longside of culture and history just flat play against them IMHO. Even Gen. Petraeus in a July 20th interview spoke of Al Qaeda shifting away from Iraq and back towards the Afghan/Pakistan frontier and in the sense of Iraq, this is a good thing.

However, Osama has used this larger theater to economicaly weaken America so longterm as this whole war has turned more economic with oil being now the primary weapon, the weaker America will become over time. Economically, we are in pretty rough shape but I do believe all things considered, if gas would drop to around $2 a gallon (I can't believe I'm saying this about $2 gas ) things would start to rebound towards a positive.

This may seem completely unrelated but it really is not and ironically the testimony was before the Energy and National Security Senate Committee but this past Tuesday, T. Boone Pickens spoke before this body about the current energy situation and his plan going forward. His testimony was very informative on many levels and IMO he left no doubt on the table that by 2050' we are completely done with oil whether we like it or not and no matter what we do. But if you could for a moment step way back and look at the issue from an economic warfare issue, to me it was as obvious as the nose on mine and your face. The simple fact is, we are in that region of the world to protect the vital oil interests of this nation. We really are there to truly "Protect Our Way of Life" if you understand the underlying poliitcal wonk ideal that those words really do mean in a collective sense, and I'm not using collective in a liberal left meaning sense but in a larger general application. Don't go right wing on me!

I'm gonna try and post a link to Pickens testimony before Congress and it truly is worth the 1 1/2 hour of time to watch it. Look for it in the "oil price" thread.

I think we see things a bit different in perspective in that you see this about if we don't shoot and kill them first, then they do that to us. I'd love it if it were that completely simplistic and then we just bomb them into nothingness and be done with it. From my POV the variables involved have this problem way beyond such simplicity and simplistic solution. The oil has made this region a global player and Pickens flat said $300 per barrel is in our future and it's the fact that oil is running out. As goofy and wacky as Al Gore may be with his global warming ideas, when you step back and look at the big picture, that 10 year dream to end fossel fuel use of his may turn out to be the most powerful weapon we could ever unleash on those dreaded towel heads. As much as Gore comes across to me like a snake oil salesman (I guess I never forgave him and Tipper for attacking music via that PRC) that direction of his is the direction we need to be going and the sooner the better.

 

[moreluck]

Osama.......Obama......... YoMama..........hard to tell the difference in these rhyming names !!

 

[moreluck]

Just rec'd this today.......

Did you know…
that 47 countries' have
reestablished their embassies in Iraq ?

Did you know…
that the Iraqi government
currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
…

that 3100 schools have been renovated,
364 schools are under rehabilitation,
263 new schools are now under construction;
and 38 new schools have been completed in </SPAN>Iraq ?

Did you know…

that Iraq 's higher educational structure consists
of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers,
all currently operating?

Did you know…

that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in
January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know…

that the Iraqi Navy is operational?
They have 5 - 100-foot patrol craft,
34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know…

that Iraq ' s Air Force consists of three operational squadrons,
Which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft
(under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night,
and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know…

that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know…

that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000
fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know…

that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq
that produce over 3500 new officers every 8 weeks?

Did you know…

there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq ?
They include 364 sch ools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals,
83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities
and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know…

that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5
have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know…

that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid
October?

Did you know…

that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in20Iraq
and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know…

that Iraq has an independent media that consists of
75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know…

that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know…

that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a
televised debate recently?


WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW?

BECAUSE OUR MEDIA WON'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country,
we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib
and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.

Tragically, the lack of accentuating the positive
in Iraq serves two purposes:


It is intended to undermine the world's perception
of the United States thus minimizing consequent support;
and it is intended to discourage American citizens.

----

Above facts are verifiable

http://www.defenselink.mil/

Did you know?

Why I didn't know

But I know now.....

 

[tourists24]

Moreluck,,, you've obviously been making this stuff up,,,, Iraq has been a miserable failure and disaster,,,, wake up, where you been

 

[diesel96]

did you know....
-4000 plus young americans in their prime killed
-Tens of thousands with life altering injuries suffering
-Hundred of thousands of Iraq'is dead and injured
-Millions of Iraq'is displaced and relocated living in poverty
-billions of dollars borrowed paying for this war bankrupting this country and inheriting this debt to our children and grand children.
-record profits for our defense/building contractors and oil conglomerates.
-billions of dollars of reconstruction funds wasted and not accounted for and most likly used against us.
-an executive branch that has lied and intentionally mis-guided us into war with Iraq
-an exectutive branch that has gutted the 4th amendment "right to privacy" clause out of the constitution and has illegally protected criminals such as Libby and Carl Rove.
-Increased anti-american sentiment around the world
-increased terrorist cells around the world

But I'm obviously making this stuff up, Iraq has just been peachy-keen, wake up, where have you been?

 

[BrownShark]

Just rec'd this today.......

Did you know…
that 47 countries' have
reestablished their embassies in Iraq ?

Did you know…
that the Iraqi government
currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
…

that 3100 schools have been renovated,
364 schools are under rehabilitation,
263 new schools are now under construction;
and 38 new schools have been completed in </SPAN>Iraq ?

Did you know…

that Iraq 's higher educational structure consists
of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers,
all currently operating?

Did you know…

that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in
January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know…

that the Iraqi Navy is operational?
They have 5 - 100-foot patrol craft,
34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know…

that Iraq ' s Air Force consists of three operational squadrons,
Which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft
(under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night,
and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know…

that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know…

that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000
fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know…

that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq
that produce over 3500 new officers every 8 weeks?

Did you know…

there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq ?
They include 364 sch ools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals,
83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities
and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know…

that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5
have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know…

that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid
October?

Did you know…

that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in20Iraq
and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know…

that Iraq has an independent media that consists of
75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know…

that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know…

that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a
televised debate recently?

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW?

BECAUSE OUR MEDIA WON'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country,
we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib
and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.

Tragically, the lack of accentuating the positive
in Iraq serves two purposes:

It is intended to undermine the world's perception
of the United States thus minimizing consequent support;
and it is intended to discourage American citizens.

----

Above facts are verifiable

Did you know?

Why I didn't know

But I know now.....

MORELUCK,

DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL OF THE ITEMS ON THE LIST YOU SO PROUDLY PROVIDED ARE BEING PAID FOR BY AMERICAN TAXPAYERS AT A TIME WHEN THE SAME SERVICES ARE BEING CUT HERE IN AMERICA??

Again, Propaganda at its finest.

Peace