*********** warning letters

upsgrunt

Well-Known Member
//I am in a bonus center and it is called "coded out" here; meaning you might get credited 1 for 2 or 1 for 3 and so on.//

do they do this for bulk deliveries as well? we have a route with a "BIG" bulk stop either moose/pup sized. whenever i used to do that route it would be WAY under as in 2-3 hours... last time i ran only .25 under going the same speed/ other factors as always...


I've only seen it done on the pick up side.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
Sober,
I understand your frustration and that of the driver...

I referenced reasonable - It goes both ways. I can't say if the manager is reasonable or not without doing an independent investigation. As a steward you should be able to review the documentation they have along with the driver being present. If this ever goes to the next step (suspension) this will all come into play.

Is he being singled out? Are there other drivers with more flagrant production problems who do not have warning letters?

I realize you feel that it should not have gone this far .... but now it has and you have to go on the defensive. If you are right, KARMA will come into play for the management team.

I used to have to do serious service failure investigations for my district and I found out that there are many layers of the onion that you have to continue to peel to get to the truth. Continue to peel back those layers and this will give you the best chance to defend the driver.

Things to look act - (you may not be able to do this at the warning stage but you will if it goes any further.....

How long since the last TS
Previous drivers history
How much has area changed
Utility driver performance
Look at all areas such as Dannyboy suggested
Get a list of the other drivers who are over-allowed and are worse than this driver and what their OJSes found and any discipline
As you peel back these layers other layers will surface and you will ultimately get to the truth.


I know there are people out there that wonder why a retired manager would give this kind of ammo to the "other side".

If the management team was "reasonable" you will find it very hard to punch holes in their case. If the opposite is true ... I can not and will not defend those actions. When it comes right down to it ... we are/were all employees of the same company, and what is good for the goose is good for the gander. The longer I worked at UPS the wisdom I gained taught me that if you go to work every day expecting a battle that is exactly what you are going to get.

Wisdom also taught me that there is no "other side". We all want the same thing and we need each other to get it.

IMO this is what transparency is all about.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
I vote we bring you out of retirement, and put you in as CEO.

But then again that might be why they no longer wanted your services, you treat people the way you want to be treated.

What a breath of fresh air.

Sober, time to do your work for this driver. And since I dont think you are a steward, help the guy. As a team, you could be unbeatable.

d
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
The question is....why should the driver who received this warning letter even have to defend his postion in the first place?

The guy isnt a knucklehead or a slacker. He has (or at least had) a great attitude, he works hard, works safe, helps out the other drivers in his loop, and pretty much shows up to work every day and gets the job done.

His methods and workpace were documented during his OJS as being satisfactory, yet he was still an hour overallowed. The problem is not him it is the allowance, and management knows it, yet they refuse to fix it.

IMHO, the -6.73% or -.86 SPORH he produced the week following the OJS is well within the normal parameters of standard deviation and to haul an otherwise good driver into the office and issue him a warning letter over this is downright stupid.
Sober what is a range of standard deviation that would be acceptable to a driver. I would think that the stops and pieces would have to be close everyday for sporh to be within 1 per hour. Is it just me or is .86 just crazy. I could understand 3 or 4 sporh off and something wrong especially if driver had same areas same stops same pieces a day. I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND YOUR POV AND THE DRIVERS ANGER TOWARD MGT ON THIS ONE TOTALLY BS.
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
I guess I never have the will power to stay out of these work measurement / allowance discussions. So here I go again....

Over the years, I've taken and worked up 100's of time studies or work measurement allowances. I've audited countess others. I've never found one intentionally wrong. I've found reasonable human errors, but never a "manipulation".

I've attended many work measurement classes and even taught a few. They were absolutely "intended" to be fair.

That being said, I agree that work measurement is not accurate enough to exactly say how well a individual driver is doing, and certainly not accurate enough for any individual day. Work measurement is meant to be 95% accurate, 95% of the time.

I also do not know the exact circumastances of the example here, but you shouldn't discount the significance of .86 SPORH. .86 SPORH times every driver in UPS equals $350M in cost.

What is the reason for the loss in SPORH. Was density better during the rides? Was the load better? Did the supervisor help him?

I don't know this driver's intentions or work habits. While you have seen some poor supervisors who use improper tactics to gain performance, I've seen some poor drivers who work hard at taking advantage of UPS.

I believe both are the exception.

P-Man

Can you explain how the timestudies were originally done. How did they decide who was picked to demonstrate the various aspects of a general day, ie selection time, pieces per second, startup etc, etc. Was this a general picking of various folks or the top production drivers. When were these studies done? I think many on here would enjoy listening to how these things were done.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
Can you explain how the time studies were originally done. How did they decide who was picked to demonstrate the various aspects of a general day, ie selection time, pieces per second, startup etc, etc. Was this a general picking of various folks or the top production drivers. When were these studies done? I think many on here would enjoy listening to how these things were done.

Time study is not something UPS invented. It has been around for close to a century.
Each element or movement is broken down to a TMU or Time Measurement Unit. Thousands and thousands of these pre-determined movements were measured and an average time or TMU was given to the movement.
Examples include - grasping an object, range of movement, walking, bending, etc etc.

Walks are broken down into distances and a TMU was assigned to each distance.

There are 2 very common misconceptions.

Again this is based on what a TS observer is supposed to do.

1. The driver is NOT a factor in determining the allowance
2. Help from a customer is NOT supposed to be figured in

other misconceptions

3. Parking should be figured on where the closest legal parking spot is - not where the driver actually parks

The driver is studied to show where time is gained or lost on that particular observance (key point). This is where the misconception comes from and it gives the center and TSO a baseline for knowledge of methods. For instance, when a round of studies goes through a center there may be a few particular methods problems that are glaring or there may be a particular bottleneck that shows through the round of studies that may need to be addressed. This has nothing to do with the different areas or unit allowances that are being addressed.

Variances are determined if there is time lost that can be accounted no other way. In other words - the lost time happens ever day and is way out of the norm of standard deviation.

A variance is extremely hard to get approved and goes up the ladder for approval to the District IE manager or engineering manager with approval process from the region.

Go to Wikipedia under time study and pre-determined measurement for more detail

NOW all that being said - most drivers (and management) don't trust the TSO! These studies used to be done by hand now they can be done completely by computer. An observer does not even need to ride with a driver any more. All they need to do is check the area for density or lack of it and with Google Earth they probably don't need to leave their desk.

If you are fortunate to get a TSO on car - quiz them to see what knowledge they have as the ride progresses. This will help you determine their knowledge and fairness in setting up an allowance for an area.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Had a time study years back done by a gal that had been on the basket ball team.

They took a lot of work off of me that day, so much so that we were done at 3:30, and that was after a full hour for lunch.

They sent me by to make some pickups off my route, and at one, there was a serious ball game going on inside the building. It was too much a temptation for her. Took her almost an hour of me sitting there watching before she went back to do the time study.

They ended up doing another several weeks later. I dont guess there was a place on the timestudy for the observer to play ball?

That time study remained in effect at least until i left. Had no problem being on the plus side of the paid day.

But one of the route next to me had a rookie from the college do that one. Pretty much is over allowed every day, no matter who runs it.

So it happens. As long as there are no large variances between drivers and days, a run that is consistently over allowed just needs a new time study or the allowances bumped.

d
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
So it happens. As long as there are no large variances between drivers and days, a run that is consistently over allowed just needs a new time study or the allowances bumped.

Problem is, it will never happen.

The results of a timestudy are chiseled in stone. You cant challenge it, dispute it, or argue with it.

No matter how flawed the allowance might be, it will never be corrected unless by some fluke the driver was given too much time.

If 10 different drivers shared same route, and all 10 drivers averaged 2 hours overallowed every time they ran that route....UPS would still blame the 10 drivers instead of admitting that the study itself might be inaccurate.

If you tell the same lie over and over again, pretty soon you start believing it yourself.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Sober

The allowances per each work segment is set in stone. They are the same allowances that are set in stone for all routes, they dont change.

Where the problem lies is the human aspect of the time study, how the allowances apply to each route, and how that data is collected by the observer. And it is that segment that is where the problem lies with some routes never beating standards, or being an hour or more over every day, or a route that even a rookie can beat by a half hour each day.

And there in lies the rub. IF a OJS showed that the driver performed well, and was over by an hour, that is a clear indication that something in the time study is very wrong, and it should be adjusted.

But instead, too many managers take the easy way out which is very unfair to the drivers, and long term to the company.

Its a shame that the managers that most drivers that deal with being over allowed would rather use a heavy hand, instead of logically looking at why there might be a problem. It is in those situations that a steward can really be a great help in fixing the issue before it gets out of hand.

All that being said, there are those drivers( some of which have been discussed here) that will not perform no matter what, to any degree. And like it or not, those drivers will be weeded out over time.

d
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
Problem is, it will never happen.

The results of a timestudy are chiseled in stone. You cant challenge it, dispute it, or argue with it.

No matter how flawed the allowance might be, it will never be corrected unless by some fluke the driver was given too much time.

If 10 different drivers shared same route, and all 10 drivers averaged 2 hours overallowed every time they ran that route....UPS would still blame the 10 drivers instead of admitting that the study itself might be inaccurate.

If you tell the same lie over and over again, pretty soon you start believing it yourself.

When a route was out of whack the manager of the center had to go out and OJS the driver to justify a time study. If the manager did this the study would be put on the schedule and would be analyzed by a TSO usually within a month or two depending on what is on the schedule.

Your hypothetical situation involving 10 drivers is not realistic. Unless it is a local issue. It would be the rare exception that a manager who sees a glaring problem such as the one you described would let that go on. You have to remember that the manager is also affected by the inaccuracy of the study. It affects the attitude of the drivers and takes valuable time away from a supervisor's day if they are constantly having to answer for a driver who is two hours over-allowed.

I would hazard to say that you are allowing your anger over the situation to filter into your posts.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
When a route was out of whack the manager of the center had to go out and OJS the driver to justify a time study. If the manager did this the study would be put on the schedule and would be analyzed by a TSO usually within a month or two depending on what is on the schedule.

Your hypothetical situation involving 10 drivers is not realistic. Unless it is a local issue. It would be the rare exception that a manager who sees a glaring problem such as the one you described would let that go on. You have to remember that the manager is also affected by the inaccuracy of the study. It affects the attitude of the drivers and takes valuable time away from a supervisor's day if they are constantly having to answer for a driver who is two hours over-allowed.

I would hazard to say that you are allowing your anger over the situation to filter into your posts.

I have been a driver for 22 years.

In that time, I have never once seen a flawed timestudy get corrected.

I once had a bid route that I ran 1.5 hrs overallowed on every single day, no matter how hard I tried.

Management would ride with me. The would compliment me on my methods. They would even help run stops off. The result was the same, 1.5 over.

Whoever ran the route when I was gone was at least 2 hrs over if not more.

It went on like this for 4 years...constant rides, consant harassment, constantly being overdispatched in real life in order not to be an "underload" on paper. The allowance was never corrected. According to my sup, only "corporate IE" could order a new study, they just "didnt see a need" for one, and maybe if I just "hustled" a bit more things would be better.

Then came the day of the new timestudy. Salvation was at hand! Finally there was hope!

Result? I lost another 20 minutes....and had my stop count bumped up even more in order to keep from being an underload.

My story is far from unique. It is normal operating procedure for UPS. The entire system is intentionally designed to create a "standard" that can only be met by working off of the clock. It isnt fair and was never intended to be.
 

some1else

Well-Known Member
sober we have a route that has had 3 drivers over three years, each one bids on; figures out you are 1-1.5 over each day and get harrased alot; then bid off or go back to unassigned cover.

currently on the 4th driver on that route. ive run it and there are 5 similar routes in the center. 75 biz ~250 pieces and then 25 houses, 15 p/u with about 100 pieces. same mileage same everything as the other routes but at least 90 minutes lower allowance...
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Lifer

Not trying to "pile on" here, but there is truth to what sober has posted. I have seen it happen here. More than once. It can go on for many years that way. Some have been fixed, but other routes, well it seems it serves a purpose for them to have several routes that are over by 1.5-2 hours a day, every day. They never have been nor does it see they will ever be fixed.

To me, it would seem a great drag, as you have posted, on both management and hourly to have studies done that go out with the same load and get back an hour or more over dispatched every day, including the days of the OJS. Very counterproductive to the operation IMO.

Problem is in our center, when the bid go up, these are usually relegated to junior drivers who will fly, but still get beat.

To me, its stupidity in its highest form when you place a man in a no win situation, and when he does his best, still climb his case every day.

But while it does go on, and the harassment continues, I have yet to see one driver fired for production here. Its always something else where the driver hands them a "gimme".

d
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Problem is, it will never happen.

The results of a timestudy are chiseled in stone. You cant challenge it, dispute it, or argue with it.

No matter how flawed the allowance might be, it will never be corrected unless by some fluke the driver was given too much time.

If 10 different drivers shared same route, and all 10 drivers averaged 2 hours overallowed every time they ran that route....UPS would still blame the 10 drivers instead of admitting that the study itself might be inaccurate.

If you tell the same lie over and over again, pretty soon you start believing it yourself.

I'm not sure your implication on the "fluke" part, but didn't you say you gained time on your most recent time study.

BTW, if 10 drivers run 2 hours over on the same route you are correct that the problem may be the study. More than likely, its due to another factor (all of which are NOT the drivers' fault)

If may be a bad load. It may be a poor trace or dispatch. It may be bad traffic.

P-Man
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Sober

The allowances per each work segment is set in stone. They are the same allowances that are set in stone for all routes, they dont change.

Where the problem lies is the human aspect of the time study, how the allowances apply to each route, and how that data is collected by the observer. And it is that segment that is where the problem lies with some routes never beating standards, or being an hour or more over every day, or a route that even a rookie can beat by a half hour each day.

And there in lies the rub. IF a OJS showed that the driver performed well, and was over by an hour, that is a clear indication that something in the time study is very wrong, and it should be adjusted.

But instead, too many managers take the easy way out which is very unfair to the drivers, and long term to the company.

Its a shame that the managers that most drivers that deal with being over allowed would rather use a heavy hand, instead of logically looking at why there might be a problem. It is in those situations that a steward can really be a great help in fixing the issue before it gets out of hand.

All that being said, there are those drivers( some of which have been discussed here) that will not perform no matter what, to any degree. And like it or not, those drivers will be weeded out over time.

d

Danny,

Let me add some clarification on the purpose of work measurement.

Work measurement is intended to point out where a problem exists, not necessarily who caused the problem. I've seen managers use time study information as a "blame tool" instead of a compass.

For instance, lets assume a route has a poor load or a poor dispatch. If the driver delivers his / her air and then stops and sorts his / her load all that sorting time is going to be overallowed.

If the driver is looking for packages in the load, he / she will be overallowed in select.

If you have to meet another driver to swap misloads, you will be overallowed.

I've heard it argued that we know this happens every day, why don't we give planned time for it. Well, then the work measurement would not point out that a problem exists, and that's its purpose.

If the job setup is good and methods are good then the problem is the study. It has to be.

P-Man
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
P man

On the routes i have knowledge about, the methods are good, the load is great every day, and dispatch could be better, but it is not bad enough by itself to make the route over 2 hours.

But why do managers leave the routes over. It would seem that they would want to have all the routes studied to where they at least break even most of the time.

But on several it seems like just the opposite, like they want the route to be over allowed 2 hours every day.

I just dont follow that logic.

d
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
Well I guess it depends on who the district manager & IE managers are, whether or not they believe in the bonus system and prescribe to it.

There is a philosophy out there (I am not saying it is right) that if you give drivers more time through increased allowances, human nature takes over and they slow down to meet their previous over or under. Part of the problem is that everyone relaxes including supervision and the center loses performance on the whole, nothing is gained but it costs more to get it. So why bother.

I have worked in both bonus and non-bonus operations and found that drivers had better methods and much better trained supervisors (on the average) than in bonus centers. But it does not have to be that way...

It sounds to me that where you guys are from the districts don't believe in bonus so why spend the money to make it fair? Maybe this is the way UPS is going now. I hope I am wrong.

All it takes is one person in the right position in corporate to push a non-bonus process down the pipe. The structure is set up in such a way that it wouldn't take much to do this with the right person micro-managing.

I guess I am old school - I believe in the bonus system and the ability to keep it fair and honest for both sides.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
When they first brought bonus into the center, it was fair and pretty much even handed.

Problem was that there was a lot of manipulation of the system by some for personal gain. In the end, manipulation of the system by management was the reason we voted it out.

Kinda interesting. To bump up the numbers, all drivers having to drive to the next town over (about 25 miles) were given 4-6 stops going down the four lane to that town. Many drivers were given the same stops, and delivered them at the same time. IF one of those businesses on that stretch got 8 packages, they would have 8 drivers stop on the way to that town. See, that would up the number of on area miles by those drivers, and cause them to beat the numbers.

All to manipulate the numbers. Cost effective? Nope, cost us a bundle to sham the numbers that way, but you work as instructed.

My personal feeling is that they cooked the numbers sure as they changed the time cards. The whole bunch should be fired for that type of action.

d
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
When they first brought bonus into the center, it was fair and pretty much even handed.

Problem was that there was a lot of manipulation of the system by some for personal gain. In the end, manipulation of the system by management was the reason we voted it out.

Kinda interesting. To bump up the numbers, all drivers having to drive to the next town over (about 25 miles) were given 4-6 stops going down the four lane to that town. Many drivers were given the same stops, and delivered them at the same time. IF one of those businesses on that stretch got 8 packages, they would have 8 drivers stop on the way to that town. See, that would up the number of on area miles by those drivers, and cause them to beat the numbers.

All to manipulate the numbers. Cost effective? Nope, cost us a bundle to sham the numbers that way, but you work as instructed.

My personal feeling is that they cooked the numbers sure as they changed the time cards. The whole bunch should be fired for that type of action.

d

can you explain more about this and what happen to mgt attitudes afterwards?
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Cold

IT got to where you had to be a favorite of management to make bonus.

They would change items on the time card to keep the driver from making more than a couple of bucks a week.

One of the major items was apartment buildings.

If you had an apartment complex that got say 30 deliveries a day, and after attempting each one, you had to leave them all at the office, that counted only as one stop. You actually made 31 stops, but could only count them as 1. The golden boys learned really fast only to take them to the office without attempting the actual delivery. That caused the regular drivers problems because after three days of sitting in the office, the regular driver had to go back by to leave another notice.

Anyway, management raised all sorts of heck, made all sorts of threats, intimidated many drivers. That only made them more determined to vote it out.

Best thing we ever did for driver moral and getting back to doing the job correctly by the methods.

And after management got over their hissyfit, it was back to business.

The vote was done through the union. Majority carried the vote. I think we had almost 85% against.

d
 
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