What Did We Learn from Faisal Shahzad's Guilty Plea Speech?

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Av, perhaps it is you who needs the history lesson. Please see Wk's link above.

What the student papers? LOL I don't think so.

I gave you the speech and if you take the time to read it you will see that the reasons laid out were broad. I put it in the wrong thread and I had forgotten who had falsely claimed that the reasons to go to war had changed over time. I think the only thing that changed was the famous aluminum tube line that Wilson had set them up on. There was no big lies given and nothing changed over time. Anyhow it is here. I know it will not matter to you because it does not fit into the story line you are trying to sale.

Primary reasons given were violation of the cease fire agreement, failure to prove to weapons inspectors that they had destroyed disclosed WMD's, use of chemical weapons on his own people, to free the people of Iraq, spread of democracy, Saddam was an all around bad guy, support of terrorism, we couldn't just sit around after 911, and on and on and on.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
What the student papers? LOL I don't think so.

I gave you the speech and if you take the time to read it you will see that the reasons laid out were broad. I put it in the wrong thread and I had forgotten who had falsely claimed that the reasons to go to war had changed over time. I think the only thing that changed was the famous aluminum tube line that Wilson had set them up on. There was no big lies given and nothing changed over time. Anyhow it is here. I know it will not matter to you because it does not fit into the story line you are trying to sale.

Primary reasons given were violation of the cease fire agreement, failure to prove to weapons inspectors that they had destroyed disclosed WMD's, use of chemical weapons on his own people, to free the people of Iraq, spread of democracy, Saddam was an all around bad guy, support of terrorism, we couldn't just sit around after 911, and on and on and on.
So you will brush aside a "student paper" in favor of a political speech filled with right wing talking points given by the right wing's mouth piece? What a surprise.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
January 28th 2003.

The date of the speech. 1 year, 4 months and 17 days from 9/11/01. In that time, I would submit to you, all the reasons compiled in the 1/28 speech were rolled out to the American public one after another. In other words, the reason for war kept changing week to week.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
So you will brush aside a "student paper" in favor of a political speech filled with right wing talking points given by the right wing's mouth piece? What a surprise.

Actually you are proof that it is the left that keeps changing from week to week. As you claim Bush keeps changing from week to week when I show you that he never changed from the time he asked to go to war to the time he left office you want to talk about some student paper. You wanted what Bush said and there it is. If anything he gave to many reasons to go to war which allowed simple minded people from the left to constantly change from week to week the reasons they opposed. This was a major flaw in the Bush presidency of allowing his opposition to define him just as you are trying to do here. I have no problem that you oppose war. That in some ways is noble but what I do have a problem with is a fabrication of reasons to oppose this war.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
20mar2003
That would be true if the administration had finished their attempt to justify the war at it's onset. However, questions remained. I use the 28jan2003 as a point of commonality, a point of critical mass where many of the justifications made over the previous 16 months found their way into President Bush's speech that evening.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
That would be true if the administration had finished their attempt to justify the war at it's onset. However, questions remained. I use the 28jan2003 as a point of commonality, a point of critical mass where many of the justifications made over the previous 16 months found their way into President Bush's speech that evening.

So now you admit that he did not change the reasons for going to war from week to week. He just gave to many reasons for you and stuck with them.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
So now you admit that he did not change the reasons for going to war from week to week. He just gave to many reasons for you and stuck with them.
No, I think you've admitted that for over a year the administration with help from a very lap-dog media threw a bunch of crap at the wall to see what would stick. The winning piles made it into the speech.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
No, I think you've admitted that for over a year the administration with help from a very lap-dog media threw a bunch of crap at the wall to see what would stick. The winning piles made it into the speech.

The big problem with your argument is that it is not true. Other than that you make a pretty good case.
 

tieguy

Banned
Actually you are proof that it is the left that keeps changing from week to week. As you claim Bush keeps changing from week to week when I show you that he never changed from the time he asked to go to war to the time he left office you want to talk about some student paper. You wanted what Bush said and there it is. If anything he gave to many reasons to go to war which allowed simple minded people from the left to constantly change from week to week the reasons they opposed. This was a major flaw in the Bush presidency of allowing his opposition to define him just as you are trying to do here. I have no problem that you oppose war. That in some ways is noble but what I do have a problem with is a fabrication of reasons to oppose this war.

yep one thing about bush he was not wishy washy. He drew his line in the sand and stood behind it.
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
http://infidelsarecool.com/
A very good read, and for those not in the know, an eye-opener. Not to say that there aren’t many highly trained and skilled jihadists. However the majority are inept, inbred and completely incompetent.
The Case for Calling Them Nitwits

They blow each other up by mistake.
They bungle even simple schemes.
They get intimate with cows and donkeys.
Our terrorist enemies trade on the perception that they’re well trained and religiously devout, but in fact, many are fools and perverts who are far less organized and sophisticated than we imagine.
Can being more realistic about who our foes actually are help us stop the truly dangerous ones?
In the years after 9/11, the images we were shown of terrorists were largely the same: shadowy jihadists who, even when they were foiled, seemed always to have come terrifyingly close to pulling off a horrific attack.
We’ve all become familiar by now with the stock footage of Talibs in black shalwar kameezes zipping across monkey bars or, more recently, perfecting kung fu kicks in some secret training camp.
Even in the aftermath of the botched Times Square bombing earlier this spring, the perception persists that our enemies are savvy and sophisticated killers.
They’re fanatical and highly organized—twin ideas that at once keep us fearful and help them attract new members.
But this view of the jihadist community is wildly off the mark.
To be sure, some terrorists are steely and skilled—people like Mohamed Atta, the careful and well-trained head of the 9/11 hijackers.
Their leaders and recruiters can be lethally subtle and manipulative, but the quiet truth is that many of the deluded foot soldiers are foolish and untrained, perhaps even untrainable.
Acknowledging this fact could help us tailor our counterterrorism priorities—and publicizing it could help us erode the powerful images of strength and piety that terrorists rely on for recruiting and funding.
Nowhere is the gap between sinister stereotype and ridiculous reality more apparent than in Afghanistan, where it’s fair to say that the Taliban employ the world’s worst suicide bombers: one in two manages to kill only himself.
And this success rate hasn’t improved at all in the five years they’ve been using suicide bombers, despite the experience of hundreds of attacks—or attempted attacks.

In Afghanistan, as in many cultures, a manly embrace is a time-honored tradition for warriors before they go off to face death.
Thus, many suicide bombers never even make it out of their training camp or safe house, as the pressure from these group hugs triggers the explosives in suicide vests. According to several sources at the United Nations, as many as six would-be suicide bombers died last July after one such embrace in Paktika.
Many Taliban operatives are just as clumsy when suicide is not part of the plan.

In November 2009, several Talibs transporting an improvised explosive device were killed when it went off unexpectedly.
The blast also took out the insurgents’ shadow governor in the province of Balkh.
When terrorists do execute an attack, or come close, they often have security failures to thank, rather than their own expertise.
Consider Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab—the Nigerian “Jockstrap Jihadist” who boarded a Detroit-bound jet in Amsterdam with a suicidal plan in his head and some explosives in his underwear.
Although the media colored the incident as a sophisticated al-Qaeda plot, Abdulmutallab showed no great skill or cunning, and simple safeguards should have kept him off the plane in the first place.
He was, after all, traveling without luggage, on a one-way ticket that he purchased with cash.
 
http://infidelsarecool.com/
A very good read, and for those not in the know, an eye-opener. Not to say that there aren’t many highly trained and skilled jihadists. However the majority are inept, inbred and completely incompetent.
The Case for Calling Them Nitwits

They blow each other up by mistake.
They bungle even simple schemes.
They get intimate with cows and donkeys.
Our terrorist enemies trade on the perception that they’re well trained and religiously devout, but in fact, many are fools and perverts who are far less organized and sophisticated than we imagine.
Can being more realistic about who our foes actually are help us stop the truly dangerous ones?
In the years after 9/11, the images we were shown of terrorists were largely the same: shadowy jihadists who, even when they were foiled, seemed always to have come terrifyingly close to pulling off a horrific attack.
We’ve all become familiar by now with the stock footage of Talibs in black shalwar kameezes zipping across monkey bars or, more recently, perfecting kung fu kicks in some secret training camp.
Even in the aftermath of the botched Times Square bombing earlier this spring, the perception persists that our enemies are savvy and sophisticated killers.
They’re fanatical and highly organized—twin ideas that at once keep us fearful and help them attract new members.
But this view of the jihadist community is wildly off the mark.
To be sure, some terrorists are steely and skilled—people like Mohamed Atta, the careful and well-trained head of the 9/11 hijackers.
Their leaders and recruiters can be lethally subtle and manipulative, but the quiet truth is that many of the deluded foot soldiers are foolish and untrained, perhaps even untrainable.
Acknowledging this fact could help us tailor our counterterrorism priorities—and publicizing it could help us erode the powerful images of strength and piety that terrorists rely on for recruiting and funding.
Nowhere is the gap between sinister stereotype and ridiculous reality more apparent than in Afghanistan, where it’s fair to say that the Taliban employ the world’s worst suicide bombers: one in two manages to kill only himself.
And this success rate hasn’t improved at all in the five years they’ve been using suicide bombers, despite the experience of hundreds of attacks—or attempted attacks.

In Afghanistan, as in many cultures, a manly embrace is a time-honored tradition for warriors before they go off to face death.
Thus, many suicide bombers never even make it out of their training camp or safe house, as the pressure from these group hugs triggers the explosives in suicide vests. According to several sources at the United Nations, as many as six would-be suicide bombers died last July after one such embrace in Paktika.
Many Taliban operatives are just as clumsy when suicide is not part of the plan.

In November 2009, several Talibs transporting an improvised explosive device were killed when it went off unexpectedly.
The blast also took out the insurgents’ shadow governor in the province of Balkh.
When terrorists do execute an attack, or come close, they often have security failures to thank, rather than their own expertise.
Consider Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab—the Nigerian “Jockstrap Jihadist” who boarded a Detroit-bound jet in Amsterdam with a suicidal plan in his head and some explosives in his underwear.
Although the media colored the incident as a sophisticated al-Qaeda plot, Abdulmutallab showed no great skill or cunning, and simple safeguards should have kept him off the plane in the first place.
He was, after all, traveling without luggage, on a one-way ticket that he purchased with cash.
I'm not too sure I agree with this writer's opinion of exposing the nitwit factor. I guess it might dissuade a few would be/wanna be jihadists, however it may also lighten the security atmosphere that is already suspect. The writer even pointed out that some of the successful or near successful attacks were because of security failures.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
The big problem with your argument is that it is not true. Other than that you make a pretty good case.
The big problem with your argument is that it is in black and white and put forth in fairly straight forward terms. But then again it was a "student paper" and then perhaps beneath your consideration.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
The best case to put forth when such an argument is being made, such as the one put forth by wkmac, is to look at the UK. Every time you give an inch to muslim extremists they demand a mile. In the UK they have been doing this for years to the point that they have a sharia law court system for the islamists and yet they are still under constant threat of attack just like we are. The bottom line is the Quran calls for the destruction of any non muslim society and or individuals, and these islam extremists buy into that completely.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
"...Quran calls for the destruction of any non muslim society and or individuals, and these islam extremists buy into that completely..."

Which is why I totally stay away from any of these people!! I think all Quran believers, and not just extremists, think of me as the enemy.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
"...Quran calls for the destruction of any non muslim society and or individuals, and these islam extremists buy into that completely..."

Which is why I totally stay away from any of these people!! I think all Quran believers, and not just extremists, think of me as the enemy.

I seriously doubt if any of them give you a second thought.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
"...Quran calls for the destruction of any non muslim society and or individuals, and these islam extremists buy into that completely..."

Which is why I totally stay away from any of these people!! I think all Quran believers, and not just extremists, think of me as the enemy.
You wouldn't know a muslim if she came up and shook your hand.
 
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