What is L.P. thinking?

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
rocky

bringing reporters to the hearing is a two way street. it is news either way it goes, and it is a public place where news people usually go for a story.

red, while i find myself at odds with you on different subjects, either way it goes, do the right thing.

tie, et al

many years ago, before diad, there was a driver that really wanted to do nothing but be the best. for christmas he was assigned a route that had a lot of small businesses and home deliveries. from december on he had at least two helpers, and the ten days at peak, three. not unusual to have 15-20 hours helper time per day or more. but all went very well, the driver had the helper team well trained and everyone knew their jobs and did them well. usually. that christmas, the team set new records for packages and stops delivered and at the end of the season, everyone rejoiced with the success of the delivery team.

around the 15th of january, lp pulled said driver into the office. on the wednesday before peak, there was a package delivered that was cod. the package had been attempted twice earlier in the week, and had been indirect delivered to one of the pickup stops on the route. as the driver was setting up the stops for the next round of deliveries, two helpers loaded the pickup pieces, and the third made the cod delivery.

the delivery showed being completed on wednesday, but the problem was that the money was not turned in until that friday, two days after the delivery.

now, as a driver, if i ended up with 900 bucks plus in cash in my pocket, that would send up a signal that something was wrong. i did not have the money, had no idea where the money could have been during that time.

when lp questioned the helper that actually made the delivery, he told them that he gave me the cash and tags every night when the work was done.

so they fired me for dishonesty.

while i knew that i never had the cash in my possession overnight, i had no answer as to where it could have been. even the ba that took the case to the panel really did not believe that i was Innocent.

during the hearing, i presented a lot of evidence including bank statements, etc etc etc that really did not prove anything, but did show that i had financial needs at the time that could have easily been taken care of by an infusion of cash, but was not.

as they asked if i had anything else to say, i said a silent prayer. i knew i had no proof that i did not have the money, and while they really had strong circumstantial evidence against me, they had no actual proof. but it was not looking good.

all of a sudden it hit me, right there in the room. the friday night before peak, one of the car washers had handed me a wad of money and cod tags that the helper had brought in earlier in the evening. said he had forgotten to give them to me and found then as his mother was washing his clothes. at the time, gave it no thought at all.

bottom line, the damage to my reputation had been done. there is no way to unring a bell. but it is up to the responsible parties to handle this matter in an adult way.

in my case, it was done by an lp guy that took inaccurate statements (after the fact we found out that the statement had been altered to fit the lp guys "proof") and that he had promised to see to it that the helper would get on at ups (which was a lie as well).

i would suspect that this was in retaliation to a situation where i discovered an overlabling ring out of atlanta's overgoods department that was sending packages to stops on my area.

brought two suspect deliveries to him, and without lifting a finger, instructed me to deliver them. two days later i brought him another one. he told me to deliver it as well, to which i replied if he wanted it delivered, to deliver it himself (it was a large case of shotgun shells)

that next monday they had me deliver it while the sheriffs department taped it. i ended up getting a small reward and an article in the regional "big idea", and made him look bad.

So tie, as you can see by my experience, my faith in the information that lp has gathered is always suspect. while some i have met are sincere and good folk, many are scumbags not worth the ground they stand on, interested only in justifying their jobs, regardless of what they ruin in the mean time.

and that also explains why i ended up as a shop steward. i was blessed to get my job back. i promised myself i would never allow ups or some of its misbegotten children to railroad another person like they did me.

sorry for the length of the post, but hard to keep it short when dealing with things like this.

d
 

RockyRogue

Agent of Change
No offense, but when you work so fast that people shut you off, then scream smack at them, you are not a union brother but a selfish management pet trying to impress people that could care less about you and your future. Joking around or not that is lame behaviour and believe me, I've seen your type time and time again. That is nothing to brag about, just as dogging it isn't.

I hadn't looked at it from that perspective to be completely honest. I yield :whiteflag:. -Rocky
 

IDoLessWorkThanMost

Well-Known Member
Ok this maybe a dumb question but when a shipper insures a package for the value of it (beyond the 100 dollars) does UPS insure it or does UPS contract out that?
If its an independent insurer it could be them pursuing the charges not UPS

When I worked full-time at a counter, we were told never to ask the customer if they wanted to purchase "insurance" because that is not what it is. (up to 100$ covered w/out addl fee, etc) I actually forget the details but perhaps someone else can chime in on that. It may just be a technicality but could also shed some light upon what you're asking?
 
No offense, but when you work so fast that people shut you off, then scream smack at them, you are not a union brother but a selfish management pet trying to impress people that could care less about you and your future. Joking around or not that is lame behaviour and believe me, I've seen your type time and time again. That is nothing to brag about, just as dogging it isn't.

Yea Rock,what he said. Um...plus your a tick.
 

RockyRogue

Agent of Change
Yea Rock,what he said. Um...plus your a tick.

Did you not see where I told him he had a point? And because you've been such a jerk this evening, I'm going to become the Brown Cafe Grammar Police for a second. In this case 'your' should have been 'you're' or better yet, 'you are.' And I am no friend'ing tick. -Rocky
 
Ouch,darn that spell check,foiled again. Got me again Pebble. You`re right you`re not a tick. A tick actually has purpose in the world even if it`s only to spread disease.
 

RockyRogue

Agent of Change
Ouch,darn that spell check,foiled again. Got me again Pebble. You`re right you`re not a tick. A tick actually has purpose in the world even if it`s only to spread disease.

Truth be told....I don't think I'd have fit in if I'd tried to move up in the full-time hourly ranks. And I have a weak stomach, so UPS management probably wouldn't have been my thing, either. I guess its for the best I moved on. -Rocky
 

DS

Fenderbender
Rocky I dont know you ,but your posts have always been well thought out and well spoken.You would probobly make a good moderator here if you still worked for ups.I don't blame you for leaving,ups is really screwed up when it comes to management,and I personally like your comments.
White collar or brown.
 

tieguy

Banned
Tie, then what in heavens name are you paying them for?

tie, i have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your ability. i too have seen some pretty stupid employees, and some wonderful friends that have ended up as thieves (several i ended up as either part or all of the reasons they ended up caught) and i have 0 tolerance for that. especially if you try to use me to help you steal. but as for the rest of your thread, i really must strongly disagree. lemme explain it this way.

as long as you were on the other side if the union/ups hearing, you were entitled to your opinion, which all your posts are, your opinion based on years of experience.

you would have been well within your rights to pin the guilty tail on the part timer. but since the company and union agreed that there was not enough evidence to fire him, then it is part of your job to deal with, uphold, and confirm that decision. whether you agree with that or not, that is your job. and unless you have other information to the contrary, that experience is in past.

as for the next step in this drama that is being hijacked, that too is way past any of us determining the guilt or innocence of the guy. that is what the court hearing is for. and agree with what the court says or not, it is your job as a manager to uphold the verdict and to treat the young man not as a thief, but as a valued employee that has made a severe mistake. hopefully one that he will learn from. what your experience tells you, or what your gut feeling says, really does not have an impact on the responsible way you need to treat the guy. if found not guilty, and you keep on insisting that there is guilt leaves you open to additional issues.

d

Danny,

I deal with unpopular labor decisions all the time. I know my responsibilities in such cases. I also understand that this typeof case is an easier one for red to win at a panel if we don't catch the guy opening the box or if we don't have an eye witness. Any easy win is not an absolution of guilt.

So yes I know my responsibilities . But they do not include alibing a theif simply because he had a pregnant wife. My responsibilities do not include making a distinction between a thief and the guy that keeps him in business by buying his stolen goods.

Your responsibility with a thief is to watch your valuables because if he will steal from his employer he will steal from you to.The thief has no code of honor when it comes to his craft.

 

tieguy

Banned
company has to prove he stole it. Almost impossible to do unless you get an eye witness who is non union to provide a statement.

Tie you have hit it on the head! If you couldnt prove it at panel were you know at worst case your side would have deadlocked the case, how will you be able to prove it in a courtroom. This is were the waste comes in at. the company was embarrassed at panel and will again face the same in front of a courtroom filed with others and reporters next month.

Red one of us is confused. i think winning the panel is easier then winning in court. Possession of stolen goods is a crime in court not at the panel. Let us know how his lies sell in court.
 

tieguy

Banned
....just a question why would it matter whether or not the witness was union or not?

the union employee can become under a lot of pressure. We fired a guy for keying another persons car. The reason we discovered it is because a third employee witnessed the keying and alerted management. the third employee started changing his story almost immediately after it happened. Off to the side he told me he was afraid the union would retaliate against him if he told all. So after much discussion with him the reluctant witness we finally got a watered down statement from him that was much different from what happened and was no good to our case. It was one reason we ended up dropping the case.
 

tieguy

Banned
rocky

bringing reporters to the hearing is a two way street. it is news either way it goes, and it is a public place where news people usually go for a story.

red, while i find myself at odds with you on different subjects, either way it goes, do the right thing.

tie, et al

many years ago, before diad, there was a driver that really wanted to do nothing but be the best. for christmas he was assigned a route that had a lot of small businesses and home deliveries. from december on he had at least two helpers, and the ten days at peak, three. not unusual to have 15-20 hours helper time per day or more. but all went very well, the driver had the helper team well trained and everyone knew their jobs and did them well. usually. that christmas, the team set new records for packages and stops delivered and at the end of the season, everyone rejoiced with the success of the delivery team.

around the 15th of january, lp pulled said driver into the office. on the wednesday before peak, there was a package delivered that was cod. the package had been attempted twice earlier in the week, and had been indirect delivered to one of the pickup stops on the route. as the driver was setting up the stops for the next round of deliveries, two helpers loaded the pickup pieces, and the third made the cod delivery.

the delivery showed being completed on wednesday, but the problem was that the money was not turned in until that friday, two days after the delivery.

now, as a driver, if i ended up with 900 bucks plus in cash in my pocket, that would send up a signal that something was wrong. i did not have the money, had no idea where the money could have been during that time.

when lp questioned the helper that actually made the delivery, he told them that he gave me the cash and tags every night when the work was done.

so they fired me for dishonesty.

while i knew that i never had the cash in my possession overnight, i had no answer as to where it could have been. even the ba that took the case to the panel really did not believe that i was Innocent.

during the hearing, i presented a lot of evidence including bank statements, etc etc etc that really did not prove anything, but did show that i had financial needs at the time that could have easily been taken care of by an infusion of cash, but was not.

as they asked if i had anything else to say, i said a silent prayer. i knew i had no proof that i did not have the money, and while they really had strong circumstantial evidence against me, they had no actual proof. but it was not looking good.

all of a sudden it hit me, right there in the room. the friday night before peak, one of the car washers had handed me a wad of money and cod tags that the helper had brought in earlier in the evening. said he had forgotten to give them to me and found then as his mother was washing his clothes. at the time, gave it no thought at all.

bottom line, the damage to my reputation had been done. there is no way to unring a bell. but it is up to the responsible parties to handle this matter in an adult way.

in my case, it was done by an lp guy that took inaccurate statements (after the fact we found out that the statement had been altered to fit the lp guys "proof") and that he had promised to see to it that the helper would get on at ups (which was a lie as well).

i would suspect that this was in retaliation to a situation where i discovered an overlabling ring out of atlanta's overgoods department that was sending packages to stops on my area.

brought two suspect deliveries to him, and without lifting a finger, instructed me to deliver them. two days later i brought him another one. he told me to deliver it as well, to which i replied if he wanted it delivered, to deliver it himself (it was a large case of shotgun shells)

that next monday they had me deliver it while the sheriffs department taped it. i ended up getting a small reward and an article in the regional "big idea", and made him look bad.

So tie, as you can see by my experience, my faith in the information that lp has gathered is always suspect. while some i have met are sincere and good folk, many are scumbags not worth the ground they stand on, interested only in justifying their jobs, regardless of what they ruin in the mean time.

and that also explains why i ended up as a shop steward. i was blessed to get my job back. i promised myself i would never allow ups or some of its misbegotten children to railroad another person like they did me.

sorry for the length of the post, but hard to keep it short when dealing with things like this.

d

Danny I'm sorry to hear about your experience. But this incident is much simpler. The guy has already admitted to buying the stolen Blackberry at a 75 percent discount. It is common thing when someone is caught to admit to some lesser crime make us believe he is being truthful.

I understand the bad taste in your mouth with LP. But I don't understand your tolerance for this thief that red is defending. Too me its two different types of issues.
 

dilligaf

IN VINO VERITAS
Danny I'm sorry to hear about your experience. But this incident is much simpler. The guy has already admitted to buying the stolen Blackberry at a 75 percent discount. It is common thing when someone is caught to admit to some lesser crime make us believe he is being truthful.

The guy admitted to buying a Blackberry for less than actual value. It was never stated that the guy admitted to buying a stolen Blackberry. It was proven later to be stolen. That doesn't mean that he stole it. You are practicing you famous brand of making inaccurate statements again, Tie.
 

IDoLessWorkThanMost

Well-Known Member
The guy admitted to buying a Blackberry for less than actual value. It was never stated that the guy admitted to buying a stolen Blackberry. It was proven later to be stolen. That doesn't mean that he stole it. You are practicing you famous brand of making inaccurate statements again, Tie.

Lieguy yes but in this case he said the guy bought a stolen blackberry and that's exactly what he did? What is inaccurate, or did I miss something?
 

dilligaf

IN VINO VERITAS
Lieguy yes but in this case he said the guy bought a stolen blackberry and that's exactly what he did? What is inaccurate, or did I miss something?
No. Tie said the guy 'admitted to buying a stolen Blackberry'. Big difference. If the guy admitted to buying a stolen Blackberry he wouldn't have a job, without a doubt.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
so taking your idea of justice a step further, why dont the police arrest everyone that buys things at the flea market or on ebay? after all, everybody knows everything you get there is stolen as well.........

there are a lot of details missing. for one, the statement of the guy that actually stole the phone. as his rep, im sure 705 has that statement, and used it at the hearing.

bottom line, in America you are innocent until proven guilty. usually that process works well. but it seems at ups, if lp pronounces you guilty, you are. period. and it is up to you to prove your not guilty. as is evidenced by the responses here.

no, i dont support thieves, and have the track record and scars to prove it. but i also dont support the railroading of a person to promote the career of another either.

let the system work. then pass judgment.

d
 

705red

Browncafe Steward
I really hope you were joking earlier about bringing reporters to court, Red. Embarassing your company at panel is one thing--and I would find it amusing myself--but in public in a court of law? C'mon.....I'd hope you had a little more dignity than this! -Rocky
Well maybe if you stayed around long enough at ups and stood up for your self the little time you were there, you would understand that you have to fight fire with fire.

Its ok for the company to attempt to ruin someones lively hood and destroy them, but we should just take it.

You ever wonder why forbes and jd power and these other agencies that rank ups as one of the best employers never really talk to the hourly employees before giving such a high honor?
 

705red

Browncafe Steward
Red one of us is confused. i think winning the panel is easier then winning in court. Possession of stolen goods is a crime in court not at the panel. Let us know how his lies sell in court.
The proof that he stole stole the phone is and i quote lp " well he registered the phone so he had to have stolen it", thats enough proof to terminate a 7 year employee? To drag him out in hand cuffs during the middle of break so others can see him? I believe your right and someone should lose their job, but its not this employeee!
 

705red

Browncafe Steward
the union employee can become under a lot of pressure. We fired a guy for keying another persons car. The reason we discovered it is because a third employee witnessed the keying and alerted management. the third employee started changing his story almost immediately after it happened. Off to the side he told me he was afraid the union would retaliate against him if he told all. So after much discussion with him the reluctant witness we finally got a watered down statement from him that was much different from what happened and was no good to our case. It was one reason we ended up dropping the case.
Let me say that if theres a wiitness to a crime, theft vandalism etc, i dont care if its an hourly or management employee, that shows some proof. Now if you have a witness or several and the empty box near by, than he should be fired for theft.

Maybe the laws by you are different, but here he has been charged with theft and can not be found guilty of being in possesion of stolen goods. This is were your lp should have charged him with being in possesion, but NO he wanted to hit a homerun and nail him for everything!

You teach us the 5 seeing habits so we stay alert and aware of our surrondings at all time, but yet management can just half :censored2: their way from pay check to pay check.

And yes i will have reporters there, i have the daily herald newspaper on my route and have talked with a couple of reporters already.
 

tieguy

Banned
The guy admitted to buying a Blackberry for less than actual value. It was never stated that the guy admitted to buying a stolen Blackberry. It was proven later to be stolen. That doesn't mean that he stole it. You are practicing you famous brand of making inaccurate statements again, Tie.

Dilli,
Lets see guy has a brand new stolen blackberry in his possession. My point has been he either stole it or his bought it at a 75 percent discount as he claims. We really don't know because thieves are pretty good liars too. If you had actually read my posts you would know this already. Now go pout in the corner for getting your but kicked again. Better yet give me another one of those tearfull harrassment posts like you did last time.
 
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