whats the best way to deal with this new "push" on production? on production.

[wornoutupser]

I agree with you that there is a problem. I likely disagree with you on the cause.

Time allowances are the symptom, not the cause. I think the cause is center management who don't know how to go about improving performance.

There is plenty of room for improvement in the on-road operation. You've mentioned many yourself. Exit routine, car loading lineups, dispatch, trace, etc.

If a center manager or on road supervisor doesn't understand the purpose of allowances, how they work, or how to change the operation to improve productivity, they use the only tool they have. The hammer.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The hammer is not bad, the nail is not bad. The answer is not to get rid of the hammer, but to add more tools to the management toolkit.

P-Man

P Man,
Woudd you say that it would be unfair for this example?

When IE can come to my building, run my run by THEIR standards and run less than an hour over, THEN I could be held accountable?

The only better performance is by my cover drivers. They speed (yes, I get phone calls) and they skip lunch- then I get yelled at to run their numbers.

Yes, I have attitude here but the problem is the IE Dept in Atlanta that has decided what I can do- yet have never been on my car. They have dictated that my on car will be held accountable for me. All I want is to see them do the job at the standard that THEY demand. Is'nt that what PASS, EDD and methods is all about? Wornout

 

[NHDRVR]

I agree to a point and it applies to many drivers. What about the ones that have never had a word said to them about production in 10-20 years? They were good enough for UPS for 2 decades but now a manager is going to try and show me how to do MY job?

I'm supposed to be happy that he thinks he can do a better job than I? I would be very upset and offended if my supervisor rode with me for 3 days. I don't care who you are, you cannot do a better job on MY route than I.

And what's with the 3-day rides for the 59 year-old driver with 30 years experience? It happened in my center last week. I found this a little extreme even by UPS' standards.

Someone wrote "follow EDD even if its not correct so you have to break for businesses at the end of the day". First, as drivers we shouldn't play games like that. Its that kind of thing that warrants a ride along for you.

At the same time EDD should be 100% correct. Its not here on many routes and there is no excuse after 6 years. Instead of riding the 59 year-old senior citizen, I think the time would be better spent working on perfecting EDD. The ride may produce a gain in SPOHR of .1 for that route, but perfecting EDD may produce a gain of .1 for ALL of the routes. No?

Sometimes it takes a few days of following EDD stop for stop to fix a problem. It is an extreme way to get it fixed but we had a driver in our center do this for a few days, his commercial stuff was at the end of his EDD, and when they called to complain it did fix the problem. As I said, it's extreme and the driver knew what was coming but he had verbally exhausted himself complaining about it.
I can't remember who wrote it, sorry, but they were dead on when they said our job isn't about creating more problems to get our way. I refuse to make a bigger problem when a bit of common sense can take care of it.

 

[NHDRVR]

P Man,
Woudd you say that it would be unfair for this example?

When IE can come to my building, run my run by THEIR standards and run less than an hour over, THEN I could be held accountable?

The only better performance is by my cover drivers. They speed (yes, I get phone calls) and they skip lunch- then I get yelled at to run their numbers.

Yes, I have attitude here but the problem is the IE Dept in Atlanta that has decided what I can do- yet have never been on my car. They have dictated that my on car will be held accountable for me. All I want is to see them do the job at the standard that THEY demand. Is'nt that what PASS, EDD and methods is all about? Wornout

You hit it pal... These damn numbers are pushed on us, ALL of us, through a damn assembly line of corporate standards and we are simply covering our asses every day to not show up on any lists. Did anyone ever try to go through a day without a single anomaly passing in front of them? It doesn't happen. So we have to bend and maneuver through every friggin roadblock (figuratively and actual) when the numbers we have to adhere to won't do the same. Seems like the problem is in the software and not the humans.

 

[Raw]

One day a farmer's donkey fell down into a well. The animal cried piteously for hours as the farmer tried to figure out what to do.

Finally, he decided the animal was old, and the well needed to be covered up anyway;it just wasn't worth it to retrieve the donkey. ​

He invited all his neighbors to come over and help him. They all grabbed a shovel and began to shovel dirt into the well. At first, the donkey realized what was happening and cried horribly Then, to everyone's amazement he​

quieted down.​

A few shovel loads later, the farmer finally looked down the well. He was astonished at what​

he saw. With each shovel of dirt that hit his back, the donkey was doing something amazing.​

He would shake it off and take a step up. ​

As the farmer's neighbors continued to shovel​

​

dirt on top of the animal, he would shake it off and take a step up. ​

Pretty soon, everyone was amazed as the donkey stepped up over the edge of the well and​

​

happily trotted off! ​

Life is going to shovel dirt on you, all kinds of dirt. The trick to getting out of the well is to shake it off and take a step up. Each of our troubles is a stepping stone. We can get out​

of the deepest wells just by not stopping,​

​

never giving up! Shake it off and take a step up. ​

NOW ............​

The donkey later came back,and bit the farmer who had tried to bury him.​

The gash from the bite got infected and​

the farmer eventually died in agony from septic shock.​

MORAL FROM TODAY'S LESSON: ​

When you do something wrong, and try to cover​

​

your ass, it always comes back to bite you.​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[pretzel_man]

P Man,
Woudd you say that it would be unfair for this example?

When IE can come to my building, run my run by THEIR standards and run less than an hour over, THEN I could be held accountable?

The only better performance is by my cover drivers. They speed (yes, I get phone calls) and they skip lunch- then I get yelled at to run their numbers.

Yes, I have attitude here but the problem is the IE Dept in Atlanta that has decided what I can do- yet have never been on my car. They have dictated that my on car will be held accountable for me. All I want is to see them do the job at the standard that THEY demand. Is'nt that what PASS, EDD and methods is all about? Wornout

Wornout:

Yes, and No... I'll try and explain....

I posted earlier about the "tools" that your center team needs. Its their job to work with you and the preload to improve performance (if it needs improving).

I said before that the real problem is that UPS has inappropriately made the driver the cause of overallowed. Overallowed is meant to say that something is wrong. Not WHO is the cause.

The cause can be the preload, traffic, poor load, misloads, etc. The cause can also be bad work measurement. (Of corse, it can be the driver too)

Its the responsibility of the center team, to show you how to run the standard, not IE. From my perspective it comes down to an effective OJS ride.

If during an OJS ride you are told that you're following methods, working at a good pace, and making good decisions, then any overallowed is not you, but problems with the work measurement.

Now, you may say that during the OJS ride, you have a better dispatch and better load and that is the reason for better performance. I don't have a disagreement with that. It ony proves my point that work measurement just points out that a problem exists, not who the cause is.

If you look at driver performance across the country during an OJS ride, its significantly better than the average. Its the center teams job to maintain that.

P-Man

 

[trplnkl]

Wornout:

Yes, and No... I'll try and explain....

I posted earlier about the "tools" that your center team needs. Its their job to work with you and the preload to improve performance (if it needs improving).

I said before that the real problem is that UPS has inappropriately made the driver the cause of overallowed. Overallowed is meant to say that something is wrong. Not WHO is the cause.

The cause can be the preload, traffic, poor load, misloads, etc. The cause can also be bad work measurement. (Of corse, it can be the driver too)

Its the responsibility of the center team, to show you how to run the standard, not IE. From my perspective it comes down to an effective OJS ride.

If during an OJS ride you are told that you're following methods, working at a good pace, and making good decisions, then any overallowed is not you, but problems with the work measurement.

Now, you may say that during the OJS ride, you have a better dispatch and better load and that is the reason for better performance. I don't have a disagreement with that. It ony proves my point that work measurement just points out that a problem exists, not who the cause is.

If you look at driver performance across the country during an OJS ride, its significantly better than the average. Its the center teams job to maintain that.

P-Man

That's a good post, but it doesn't change the fact that most managers that I have encountered will not see it that way. So we, as drivers, are still faced with the accusations that we are always the problem. Even IF you can convince the OCS that it is the allowances that are skewed, they always follow with," Nothing I can do about that." BTDT.
One area I was on for a year and a half as an assigned driver had terrible time allowances. During that time three different sups at different times had been on me to do better. When they would finally ride with me, they could not find where or how I was loosing time. Each one would note on their OJS that I was doing a good job, yet the time's never changed so I was on "the list" constantly.
It doesn't matter what a driver says or does, when the time measurements are wrong we are just screwed. It does make me feel better that someone from management knows, can see that the time studies are not always right, but it pisses me off that they can't or won't do anything to fix the problem. Is it any wonder, really, that some drivers have just gotten to the point where they don't give hoot anymore?

 

[NHDRVR]

Wornout:

Yes, and No... I'll try and explain....

I posted earlier about the "tools" that your center team needs. Its their job to work with you and the preload to improve performance (if it needs improving).

I said before that the real problem is that UPS has inappropriately made the driver the cause of overallowed. Overallowed is meant to say that something is wrong. Not WHO is the cause.

The cause can be the preload, traffic, poor load, misloads, etc. The cause can also be bad work measurement. (Of corse, it can be the driver too)

Its the responsibility of the center team, to show you how to run the standard, not IE. From my perspective it comes down to an effective OJS ride.

If during an OJS ride you are told that you're following methods, working at a good pace, and making good decisions, then any overallowed is not you, but problems with the work measurement.

Now, you may say that during the OJS ride, you have a better dispatch and better load and that is the reason for better performance. I don't have a disagreement with that. It ony proves my point that work measurement just points out that a problem exists, not who the cause is.

If you look at driver performance across the country during an OJS ride, its significantly better than the average. Its the center teams job to maintain that.

P-Man

You just described the 2-headed monster in UPS. Mngt. is fully aware, as are the drivers, of what is wrong with route allowances but our on-roads are trained to ignore those problems and, instead, increase by any means necessary, the production of the driver on the route.
Problems be damned.
There are a ton of drivers who have heard on an OJS that their runs need 'fixing' and have problems that warrant 'adjusting'. But in the end are they ever really fixed??

 

[pretzel_man]

That's a good post, but it doesn't change the fact that most managers that I have encountered will not see it that way. So we, as drivers, are still faced with the accusations that we are always the problem. Even IF you can convince the OCS that it is the allowances that are skewed, they always follow with," Nothing I can do about that." BTDT.
One area I was on for a year and a half as an assigned driver had terrible time allowances. During that time three different sups at different times had been on me to do better. When they would finally ride with me, they could not find where or how I was loosing time. Each one would note on their OJS that I was doing a good job, yet the time's never changed so I was on "the list" constantly.
It doesn't matter what a driver says or does, when the time measurements are wrong we are just screwed. It does make me feel better that someone from management knows, can see that the time studies are not always right, but it pisses me off that they can't or won't do anything to fix the problem. Is it any wonder, really, that some drivers have just gotten to the point where they don't give hoot anymore?

Trpl:

I don't disagree with you. I post the same information here that I teach the center managers and division managers.

The hope is that by understanding the process and relationships, true improvements can be made. I've seen this work in many centers.

Yes, I do understand why some drivers get to the point of frustration and apathy. I work with drivers too, and those drivers usually say "I'll believe it when I see it". I don't blame them at all but most are pleased when we can fix the root cause; poor loads, poor dispatch, and missorts.

They see the improvement and accept it (for now at least).

Of course, there are a small group of remaining drivers that don't want the problem fixed. They are a small group that see that when the true problem is fixed, they will either get more work or have to reduce their paid day.

I'm not trying to make it seem like this exception group of drivers is the rule, but it does exist. I bigger problem of course is getting management to make fixing and maintaining the true issues a priority.

P-Man

 

[trplnkl]

Trpl:

I don't disagree with you. I post the same information here that I teach the center managers and division managers.

The hope is that by understanding the process and relationships, true improvements can be made. I've seen this work in many centers.

Yes, I do understand why some drivers get to the point of frustration and apathy. I work with drivers too, and those drivers usually say "I'll believe it when I see it". I don't blame them at all but most are pleased when we can fix the root cause; poor loads, poor dispatch, and missorts.

They see the improvement and accept it (for now at least).

Of course, there are a small group of remaining drivers that don't want the problem fixed. They are a small group that see that when the true problem is fixed, they will either get more work or have to reduce their paid day.

I'm not trying to make it seem like this exception group of drivers is the rule, but it does exist. I bigger problem of course is getting management to make fixing and maintaining the true issues a priority.

P-Man

I'll gladly join your choir if we can ever get an audience.

I know drivers that are concerned over getting more stops if the production is increased, I am one of them. The main reason I (not speaking for anyone else) am fearful of that is past experience. Every time anything has been done to help drivers finish faster, more work has been plied on. This is OK, if a driver is going out with less than an 8.0, 8.5, or even an occasional 9.5 day but when more work is piled on and it keeps you out for 9.5+ it's ridiculous. If someone want's to put in 10-11 hours a day, more power to them. I don't.

 

[NHDRVR]

Trpl:

I don't disagree with you. I post the same information here that I teach the center managers and division managers.

The hope is that by understanding the process and relationships, true improvements can be made. I've seen this work in many centers.

Yes, I do understand why some drivers get to the point of frustration and apathy. I work with drivers too, and those drivers usually say "I'll believe it when I see it". I don't blame them at all but most are pleased when we can fix the root cause; poor loads, poor dispatch, and missorts.

They see the improvement and accept it (for now at least).

Of course, there are a small group of remaining drivers that don't want the problem fixed. They are a small group that see that when the true problem is fixed, they will either get more work or have to reduce their paid day.

I'm not trying to make it seem like this exception group of drivers is the rule, but it does exist. I bigger problem of course is getting management to make fixing and maintaining the true issues a priority.

P-Man

I spent about a week fixing my EDD recently because I simply suggested that my trace could be tightened up. The dispatcher, a pretty good guy actually, let me come in on the clock, which turns into OT at the other end, and all were happy. My on-road likes the improvement in my trace and, NO, my stop count hasn't increased.
Point being, this is how it's supposed to be. Driver needing a small problem fixed and having it addressed.
I find it easier to do this on a one-on-one basis because (who agrees?)
trying to point out these problems in the morning when 15 other guys are throwing out one-liners and trying to get their issues addressed is pointless. I'm just another voice in the wind.
A bit of advice for the junior drivers. Find a moment when you can get just one minute of a sups time, pick your spot, and it helps your case. It's not fool proof but it works for this fool...

 

[MobileBA]

What worked for me: (1) Take a break after all NDA committments are off. (2) Take lunch in the middle of day before scheduled pick-ups are to begin, ( whether or not I'm done with what they think they have conditioned me to be done with). (3) Take a break after NDA drop has been made. (4) Go deliver some more and repeat the cycle each day. (5) When necessary file appropriate grievances and always work like they are watching you. When they talk to you, let them talk (It makes them feel good) plus you heard before and do you really care? (5) Finally you'll be labeled as a head case, you're stop count will go down, you'll be able to punch out after your air drop, go home and eat dinner with the family. You must persevere, it will work out. Five misreable years for me but it has worked out.

 

[sealbasher]

If it's about production, it should only take about half a day to see that particular problem.
If the ride is for 'fixing' a run that is unrealistic on paper....You could give me a 2 week ride to see the problems such as area trace (which is an EDD issue), splits that should be on another route that is closer (a dispatch issue), an unrealistic balance of scheduled pickups vs. stop count (this happens on every route after a bit of time), too wide of an area for air chasing (has a huge impact on your planned day), a 15 min time allowance for travel out to my route when it takes 55 minutes to get to my first stop (happened on my Salem run).
Fixing these types of problems is more difficult when done in the office. I would rather have someone come out on road with me, a space and vis., OJS, I could care less what we call it, just to see the problems that some of the runs have.
The problem is mgmt. ignores these issues if the driver is working unsafe and is meeting the numbers. The hypocracy is laughable.

if production is an issue with me i go slower

 

[soberups]

Wornout:

If during an OJS ride you are told that you're following methods, working at a good pace, and making good decisions, then any overallowed is not you, but problems with the work measurement.

Thats a great theory, but the reality is that the work measurement is chiseled in stone. It doesnt matter if its wrong, it will never be corrected. For that matter, in 22 years I have never heard a supervisor admit that a time study was inaccurate. Such an admission would be tantamount to blasphemy, and the offending supervisor might likely be burned at the stake for daring to speak the truth.

In the real world, the driver will still be blamed for the problem and if his methods are good then management will simply make up flaws in order to perpetuate the fantasy of the fair allowance. Its sort of like issuing your carpenter a tape measure that reads 11 inches per foot instead of 12 and then blaming him when the walls fall off the house even though he followed your blueprints exactly.

The whole thing is eeirly similar to George Orwell's novel 1984. If you torture someone long enough, you actually can make them believe that you are holding up 4 fingers instead of 5.

 

[pretzel_man]

Thats a great theory, but the reality is that the work measurement is chiseled in stone. It doesnt matter if its wrong, it will never be corrected. For that matter, in 22 years I have never heard a supervisor admit that a time study was inaccurate. Such an admission would be tantamount to blasphemy, and the offending supervisor might likely be burned at the stake for daring to speak the truth.

In the real world, the driver will still be blamed for the problem and if his methods are good then management will simply make up flaws in order to perpetuate the fantasy of the fair allowance. Its sort of like issuing your carpenter a tape measure that reads 11 inches per foot instead of 12 and then blaming him when the walls fall off the house even though he followed your blueprints exactly.

The whole thing is eeirly similar to George Orwell's novel 1984. If you torture someone long enough, you actually can make them believe that you are holding up 4 fingers instead of 5.

I posted more than that snippet. I said that Work Measurement points to where a problem exists. I also said that UPS has inappropriately used it to say the driver is the problem. Work measurement just says the problem exists, not who caused the problem.

This is not the same as an 11 inch ruler. The science behind work measurement is sound. I have never said that it can be used to measure a driver. It was meant to measure a situation.

Using it as gospel and to incent drivers has given a decent tool a bad name.

I understand that knowing this "theory" doesn't help drivers who are held to the measurement.

P-Man

 

[toonertoo]

I think this has been an excellent thread, and one filled with good points, thoughts and info. But in the end, if you are stuckj with a bad time measurement, one that in some cases is decades old, or a bad edd trace, its still on the hourly to perform.
Why would UPS waste so much time and money on a system, then not fix the bugs? And why should it be left on our shoulders to be overdispatched daily, not getting a true number for our efforts, and left with nothing but file grievances over hours worked to maybe someday get it fixed. Most of us wouldnt mind the hours if we didnt get beat for producing badly, when we are doing the best we safely can?

 

[soberups]

I posted more than that snippet....
I understand that knowing this "theory" doesn't help drivers who are held to the measurement.
P-Man

I did not intend to take your comments out of context by posting only a "snippet". I tend to cut out large sections of quoted text in order to reduce the overall length of the post and focus upon one or two key points.

You describe in your posts how the system (timestudies, Telemtatics etc.) is designed and what it is intended to accomplish. I believe you are being 100% honest and accurate with the information that you share.

I describe in my posts how the system is actually being implemented and in many cases abused. I am also being 100% honest and accurate with the information that I share.

You are correct when you say that the blame lies not with the system but instead with the people who misuse it. Unfortunately, this distinction tends to be lost upon the hourly employee who has no power over the system OR the people who misuse it.

How we fix this problem....bringing the intent into harmony with the reality...will in all likelihood determine the success or failure of this company.

 

[pretzel_man]

I did not intend to take your comments out of context by posting only a "snippet". I tend to cut out large sections of quoted text in order to reduce the overall length of the post and focus upon one or two key points.

You describe in your posts how the system (timestudies, Telemtatics etc.) is designed and what it is intended to accomplish. I believe you are being 100% honest and accurate with the information that you share.

I describe in my posts how the system is actually being implemented and in many cases abused. I am also being 100% honest and accurate with the information that I share.

You are correct when you say that the blame lies not with the system but instead with the people who misuse it. Unfortunately, this distinction tends to be lost upon the hourly employee who has no power over the system OR the people who misuse it.

How we fix this problem....bringing the intent into harmony with the reality...will in all likelihood determine the success or failure of this company.

Sober,

I didn't mean to indicate that you were trying to mislead.

Even though we seem to have differing opinions on things, I find you to be a person of integrity and character and I know you are honest.

I am in agreement with what you are posting here. Bringing the theory in harmony with execution (as you say) is critical to UPS' success.

The issue lies with management who need to learn to work in today's business world. In the old days, UPS could be task oriented. All management had to do was execute prescribed tasks and the company would do well. This is because we were growing and competition didn't exist.

Today, there are tremendously more decisions to make, and it takes a different type of person that it took when I started.

Best of luck,

P-Man

 

[pickup]

The whole thing is eeirly similar to George Orwell's novel 1984. If you torture someone long enough, you actually can make them believe that you are holding up 4 fingers instead of 5.[/QUOTE] - parceled off from one of soberups, postings.

In your case, your sessions in room 101 have been to try to make you see 3 where there is only two (in an effort to take care of your seatbelt problem)

Fear not my dear Winston, we still have a few more tricks up our sleeves. But at the end, you WILL love Big Brother.

 

[browniehound]

That's a good post, but it doesn't change the fact that most managers that I have encountered will not see it that way. So we, as drivers, are still faced with the accusations that we are always the problem. Even IF you can convince the OCS that it is the allowances that are skewed, they always follow with," Nothing I can do about that." BTDT.
One area I was on for a year and a half as an assigned driver had terrible time allowances. During that time three different sups at different times had been on me to do better. When they would finally ride with me, they could not find where or how I was loosing time. Each one would note on their OJS that I was doing a good job, yet the time's never changed so I was on "the list" constantly.
It doesn't matter what a driver says or does, when the time measurements are wrong we are just screwed. It does make me feel better that someone from management knows, can see that the time studies are not always right, but it pisses me off that they can't or won't do anything to fix the problem. Is it any wonder, really, that some drivers have just gotten to the point where they don't give hoot anymore?

Its too bad. I could and would elaborate if I was given the platform.

Instead my friends, just heed the above words and I will see you soon!

Good luck my friends and I hope to see you soon,

Mikie

 

[Coldworld]

This is such an interesting post on so many levels. Its really numbers vs. route driver vs. relief driver vs. ie. vs center team vs. edd. vs. etc, etc. I really only want to touch on a couple of quick things. P-man had mentioned that when drivers are really overallowed that sometimes its not the driver but things like edd, am/pm time, misloads, etc. Im sure this is some of it, but I believe more of it is outside influences that are not even close to being built into each drivers day...for example, customers, handtruck, traffic, cod's..the list goes on. These are things that can never really have an allowance because they are so fluid from day to day. It seems to me that customers now days are just so much more "multitaskers" than they were years ago. There was a time that a driver would go into a business and three people would stop what they were doing and sign because they knew you had to get going. Now you have one person doing the job of three and they are helping customers and on the phone at the same time and you dont dare cut to the front of the line, and if they're on the phone, you can hand the stylus to them, and put the board in front and they still wouldnt sign.Ups can tell drivers to convey a sense of urgency, but at the end it comes down to the customer, ups has to really tread lightly because a customer doesnt have too many choices these days but they do have a choice.
P-man, can you tell everybody when some of these allowances were studied, like selection time, customer time etc, if I could guess, It wouldnt be anywhere close to 2009, does anyone else see a problem with this? And how about the post a while back that said that ie did a time study on a center and many of the routes made up time, and for whatever reason it was thrown out and the original time continued...this seems interesting.
I have been told my sups and mgrs that the allowance is not fair when comparing it to route to route. Im sure some of you have done routes that you thought were easy and make bonus on them, and others are really challenging trying to juggle so much and you were 2 hours over, now when that is happening on a daily basis, there is something much more wrong that a slow driver, or an edd that is off a little. There are reasons that some drivers work like crazy and are an hour over while joe bonuses 2 hours a day like clockwork, and does an easier route.
Finally, one post mentioned production, edd, and telematics are going to be the thing that will decide if we stay ahead of fedex for the next 20 years. I dont think any of these is true, its going to be if ups can lobby to be able to organize fedex...think about that for a second. When this vote in congress happens it is going to be the most important thing to happen in the history of this company, imo, no matter which way the vote goes. It is scary to think about ups holding the short end of the stick on this one. If fedex is able to be organized, it could be the end of fedex like we know it, and basically ups will have won, they will not be able to compete on our level, all of their units will be able to unionize.
I know that many people on here try to rationalize and put ups into a box like other companies, management tries to say that the ups culture, as the way we know it, is a direct relationship to being union and I dont believe this is totally true. I have known others, including family, that have had union shops and there is not even close the amount of drama. This is a VERY DIFFERENT company than others out there, you cannot compare its mgt and hourly employees to other managers and hourly employees to other companies in the world. They aren't rational, they dont seem to make alot of sense, but they are what they are, and we all in our own ways add to that picture, good or bad, bad or good.