Without getting into specifics, they're more than interested. Give them a call
Who Is Serious About Unionizing?
- Thread starter MrFedEx
- Start date
MAKAVELI
Well-Known Member
Will do. Sounds very interesting.
Ive checked out the IAM website and like how signing the union card is set up...nice, neat, simple, and easy to do. If they are interested I think it would be alot easier to get personal emails and send the link over to fellow employees, who could then forward to others, etc etc. If done this way it could be a truely silent but deadly unionization hehe.
I've spoken with them on several occasions and like what they have to say. It will be difficult for any union to organize express but it can be done.
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
I agree with R1a that the IBT is the preferred union, but I'm willing to take a shot. I'll be calling during 13/14 today. As R1a pointed out, drivers are the traditional "turf" of the IBT, and the IAM turf is airline mechanics, aerospace labor, and machinists. The IAM needs to understand the RLA and that they would need to make an actual commitment rather than just talk about it and cut and run like the IBT has been doing.
The IBT has never returned a phone call, email, or letter, and I've done several of each. That says a lot.
It really doesn't matter to me who represents us. I've already dealt with the teamsters and they pulled out when the FAA bill didn't pass. The IAM is very familiar with the RLA since most of their members are covered under it. I've spoken with their legislative team and a couple of organizers, they understand what it will take.
BTW that was a half ass campaign the IBT put on a few years ago. The mechanics along with a few couriers did most of the work. The mechanics had more than enough cards signed to win the election all the while the IBT was saying it wasn't enough. That being said, I'd welcome them over the conditions we are working under. I just don't think mentally, the teamsters think they can stand up to smith.
Cactus
Just telling it like it is
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
Well, I hate to break the bad news, but specifics are VITAL if the IAM is going to become the 'union of choice'. I HEAVILY suspect at this point they are going to do the same thing as the IBT - sit back and wait for signed rep cards to come in, then make a decision as to whether or not to actually pursue an organization drive or let things 'wilt on the vine' if the numbers of cards coming in isn't enough.
You've GOT to get specifics, and you're going to have to communicate those here.
#1 Are they willing to publicly announce that they are undertaking an attempt to organize the Couriers of Express? (It would make national news if they were to make such an announcement).
#2 In the absence of a national announcement, are they going to commit organizers to work with the Couriers in building 'network', to overcome the primary obstacle of the RLA - in that organizing is done on a national level basis and not local?
#3 Will they provide literature for station level hand billing by Express Couriers, or will the Couriers have to make up their own hand bills to pass out?
#4 Will they establish a website for station level organizers (Express Couriers) to communicate methods of literature distribution, Express management counter moves and some form of 'count' as to how much progress is being made in getting cards in (all privately of course)?
On the positive side, the IAM is under AFL-CIO while the IBT is under CTW, so there aren't too many 'jurisdictional issues' at stake since they are affiliated with separate organizations.
On the down side, the IAM is about one-third the size of the IBT (fewer resources), they specialize in mechanics and they haven't stepped up to the plate on their own to attempt to organize the Express Couriers.
You are missing one thing. The IAM does have the ability for people to 'electronically' fill in the information to the rep card - BUT, by law, they (and all unions) have to get a physically SIGNED card from the person for it to count for petition purposes. This means that the IAM would then have to turn around, send out yet another card for people to physically sign. Are they going to follow through on this??
If you hand out a physical card for someone to sign - then the need for signature is taken care of once they sign and send it in.
If you get someone's personal email for the purpose of labor organizing - you might as well have them sign a real rep card and then just direct them HERE or to some other website (which of yet doesn't exist).
If you are saying, "get the IAM the emails of all Express Courier so that they may directly send them electronic literature", - then go for it.
What you are more or less suggesting, is that the Couriers generate for the IAM an electronic "Excelsior list" (Google it), and let the IAM have at it. Getting a list of email addresses may be the 'backdoor' method of generating such a list - so it sounds good to me. Station management would be caught completely unaware if a Couriers is asking for email addresses from all the station Couriers.
The only caution I have, is that this expectation that the IAM will somehow 'come to the rescue' when the IBT choose to cut and run. That is why getting SPECIFICS up here is going to be needed in order for the Couriers en mass to completely walk from the IBT and give the IAM a try.
My 'concern' is that if this does happen, then 9 months from now the IAM decides that enough cards haven't been received for them to take serious interest - that 9 months will have been lost and the game will be over for the Express Couriers. You've read the posting from the individual in Memphis that took a buyout - he has indicated the same thing as I, that Express is in the midst of radically altering its workforce characteristics and within 2 years at tops - the need for 'traditional Couriers' will be gone. Time is something you DON'T have to play with.
What I'd suggest, is that you hand out cards to BOTH the IAM and IBT. Someone can sign a rep card for as many different unions as they want - there is no restriction on only being able to sign a rep card for just one union. Then... let those who are signing make the decision as to whether to sign one, both or neither.
Another benefit of doing this, would be the fact that the IBT might just be motivated to get off their asses, and step up to the plate. Use some old fashioned 'open market principles' and let the unions compete against each other (happens all the time out there).
I've spoken with reps with the IAM and they seem very knowledgeable about the situation at express. I don't think its deep enough yet for them to announce a national organizing campaign at express. Also I'm not trying to promote the IAM over the IBT. The IBT just gave up when the FAA bill didn't pass. Over the last month or so I've gotten re-energized to do something and decided to try something different.
"You are missing one thing. The IAM does have the ability for people to 'electronically' fill in the information to the rep card - BUT, by law, they (and all unions) have to get a physically SIGNED card from the person for it to count for petition purposes. This means that the IAM would then have to turn around, send out yet another card for people to physically sign."
From what I read and viewed on the website you can print a pdf copy of the card from online, sign it, fold it, and stick it in a mail box because its postage paid. Since anyone can do this, the personal email with the link would take people directly to this page. If station organizers set up emails properly, there would be no way to detect who sent the links should anyone be tempted to try and "rat you out", which means we could stay more under the radar, and IAM would have the physically signed cards.
From what I read and viewed on the website you can print a pdf copy of the card from online, sign it, fold it, and stick it in a mail box because its postage paid. Since anyone can do this, the personal email with the link would take people directly to this page. If station organizers set up emails properly, there would be no way to detect who sent the links should anyone be tempted to try and "rat you out", which means we could stay more under the radar, and IAM would have the physically signed cards.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
You are forgetting one key thing. How many Couriers are going to print out the rep card? You are missing the 'psychological' aspect of successful rep card signing - which is having a PHYSICAL card to sign. For some reason, people take a physical card in their hands MUCH more seriously.
I know the 'younger crowd' is more 'tuned in' towards electronic anything; but, there is no subtle 'push' to get the card printed, then signed, then dropped in the mail. The whole electronic card thing RELIES upon the IAM getting the data from the e-card, then mailing out a physical card, then the person taking the time to physically sign it and return it.
About the only thing like this that I responded to, was a request by Arbitron to spend time answering questions relating to my radio listening habits. They sent a $1 in the request, then after I spent a few minutes on the phone answering their questions, they sent out $2. It wasn't a lot obviously, but if they had the honesty to send me $3 for a few minutes of my time - I didn't mind.
If unions could only offer $10 gift cards for sending in signed rep cards - I think organizing would become an absolute breeze. Unfortunately, that is considered an inducement, and would render the signed cards invalid during verification.
The establishment of an electronic "Excelsior List" for each station is a good idea. However, one needs to realize that as soon as most get an email from a source they don't recognize, they will delete it - or their email spam blocker will prevent it from even appearing in the 'inbox'. It is a useful addition to getting info out, but it can't be the only method utilized. Physical cards MUST be distributed - or very few will even bother looking at the information, forget about signing one and sending it in.
Station management WILL LEARN that someone in their station is handing out union information, whether they are handing out physical cards, or sending out emails from an anonymous email source. It doesn't take much to put 2 and 2 together (someone collecting email addresses, then a few days later people start talking about receiving e-rep cards to sign) - even Express managers can figure out that one. By going around asking for everyone's email addresses, you will be ID-ed as the individual that has sent out the links to the e-card (as soon as the emails are actually sent).
Do whatever you feel will advance your cause. Just don't think that the fact that the IAM has 'electronic rep cards', that you'll get any real increase in success.
IAM A-Card
For those who want to know what is being talked about without having to search for it...
We'll see where this goes in the next couple of weeks...
MAKAVELI
Well-Known Member
Fosho my nizzle!
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
Well, it as been over 3 months since the bomb of no pay raises for the hourlies at Express was dropped.
The question was put forth by Mr.FedEx of, "Who is serious about really organizing"?
Within a month, the obvious answer came back that no one was really interested in doing the REAL work of organizing, and that is working to establish a network of grassroots organizers within the largest 400 stations with at least one organizer in each to get out literature when the time was right - decided upon by the consensus of the 'network'.
No one wanted to go to the effort to do recruiting on their personal time and commit themselves to putting in time each week to building and growing that organization which would be needed to overcome the RLA obstacle. Fred won before the fight even got off to a start.
One poster claimed that the IAM was all sorts of interested in organizing the Express Couriers. After some pointed questions.... nothing (I knew there would be nothing from it). If anyone here has contacted or heard anything from the IAM, get up the info here. For it to be of any use at this stage, it has to be public - there is no network out there (I'd know if it existed), so until the 'seed is planted' and expansion is ready to occur, things have to be in public. Once things hit a critical mass, then things can and should be taken off public listing and all work done privately. This is what I was 'talking about' when I wrote of establishing an alternate method of communication among the grassroots organizers - a private, non-observable method of getting information out and exchanged
Express is toxic to virtually EVERY union out there - so much in fact that even the IBT has decided that it isn't worth the effort (despite what is going on within Express now). The IBT is making some half-hearted efforts towards Freight, but even there, they aren't committing themselves to a full blown effort. After the stomping they took in Massachusetts with their attempt to pull off a 'sneak' organizing effort at the Ground terminal there (they withdrew the petition a few days before the vote was to be held), they've been very 'sheepish' when it comes to anything FedEx.
I deliberately kept a low profile for the past couple of months, waiting to see if any Express Courier/s (who posts here or would PM me in regards to their efforts), would step up and lead an effort to establish a network of amateur Courier organizers to have any attempt at actually pulling something off. Nothing.
There has been lots of blame cast at the IBT for not 'stepping up' and expending a boat load of resources (it would run them in the 10s of millions of dollars to mount an organizing campaign) - when in fact the blame rest solely with the Couriers who are unwilling to commit their time to organize (all an amateur effort), to get the ball rolling.
'Professional time' costs money - big money. It would cost the IBT in the ball park of $10 million to get professional organizers out to the Express stations and do some serious organizing activity with any hope of pulling something off. Given the inclination of the 'typical' Express Courier (those you work with, not necessarily those who post and read here), does anyone here think that money would be well spent on their part?
Amateur organizing, cost virtually nothing - it just requires the commitment of TIME of those who are motivated enough to put forth the effort to change things and network with like minded people.
It has struck me as somewhat ironic if not hypocritical that the typical poster HERE expects the IBT to put forth millions in attempting to organize Express, when the most pissed off Couriers of Express (those who post here), aren't willing to commit themselves to 5 or so hours a week (every week), until a majority of Couriers have signed representation cards. It's alright for someone or some other organization to put forth large amounts of resources, but there aren't a few hundred Couriers out there who are willing to put forth a small amount of their personal time each week to attempt to pull off what they all presumably want so badly.
Where do you think the IBT gets its funds? I don't have a statement of cash flows for the IBT sitting in front of me, but I can safely state that the overwhelming majority if not practically ALL of their funding comes from their dues paying members. They may have some cash coming in from outside organizations who are sympathetic to the overall work of the IBT, but the IBTs operating capital comes from its members.
Why are the Express Couriers so convinced that they are ENTITLED to the IBT's operating capital in order to get THEMSELVES organized?
If the IBT did manage to organize and obtain a contract for the 30,000 or so Express Couriers, that would expand the IBT's membership by about 2%.
So the question again is asked, why do you (as an Express Courier), think you are ENTITLED to having the IBT expend a tremendous amount of its cash and potential political prestige (if they were to lose an organizing effort), in order to grow their membership by a whopping 2%?
These are hardball questions, and thinking about organizing the labor of a major corporation is hardball of the first order (for both the potential union members and the corporate management).
It would cost your employer approximately $500 million a year in additional compensation should the Couriers successfully organize - for them to spend a few million a year in 'insurance' (RLA lobbying) to try to avoid that expense is a no-brainer of the first order for your employer.
Since your employer will go to any lengths to avoid paying you what you are worth to them - then any attempt to change that situation is by definition, hardball for YOU.
All that has happened (in the past 4 years of my intermittently posting here), is a bunch of sophomoric slams against your employer's management, but absolutely NOTHING of substance (establishing that network) that would change your situation for the better.
Onto your employer...
From what I'm hearing, things are getting worse by the month there (OLCCs for not making goal when Couriers are following DRA to the T). That tells me right there that something is up. Not 'DRA up', but some other goal of pushing Couriers out the door. If Couriers are following DRA dictated patterns, then get hit with OLCCs for not making the old-fashioned route goal, logic dictates that one of two things is going on: 1) You employer's 'left hand' (goal maintenance) doesn't know what it 'right hand' (DRA dictated times) is doing (don't think this is it), or 2) a deliberate attempt to blame the Courier for the problems being experienced with DRA is occurring (what I think is happening).
Your employer is going to get DRA implemented, if they end up having virtually EVERY ONE of their experienced Couriers quit in the process (what I REALLY think their goal is - to get rid of the higher paid Couriers and replace them with entry level Couriers who have no knowledge of 'old school Express'). The ops managers I have corresponded with KNOW that what they are being told to do is absolute crap. They are to have their Couriers follow DRA (often with faulty leave building times or faulty stem times built into the route), but then they are to discipline their Couriers if they fall below an arbitrary goal for the month.
So if the Couriers are following DRA to the "T", why are they being held accountable for a route goal which was in place for 'old school' methods? Your managers know something is up...
The question is begged, "Does a DRA patterned route meet 100% or higher of expected goal"?
The managers that I have spoken and corresponded to have said flat out, that a DRA planned route, a majority of time DOESN'T meet the route SPH goal (a separate statistic with a separate report). Put another way. if one were to take the total on road time predicted by a DRA generated route, use that time to divide into the stops being delivered, then taking that SPH statistic and comparing it to the route expectation SPH, the end number will most of the time be significantly below 100%.
A classic "Catch-22" if there ever was one.
Something is up - Express (upper management) NEVER does anything without awareness of the potential consequences.
So what in the hell are you going to do about it - besides sophomoric insults hurled towards the upper management of the company for whom you work?
The question was put forth by Mr.FedEx of, "Who is serious about really organizing"?
Within a month, the obvious answer came back that no one was really interested in doing the REAL work of organizing, and that is working to establish a network of grassroots organizers within the largest 400 stations with at least one organizer in each to get out literature when the time was right - decided upon by the consensus of the 'network'.
No one wanted to go to the effort to do recruiting on their personal time and commit themselves to putting in time each week to building and growing that organization which would be needed to overcome the RLA obstacle. Fred won before the fight even got off to a start.
One poster claimed that the IAM was all sorts of interested in organizing the Express Couriers. After some pointed questions.... nothing (I knew there would be nothing from it). If anyone here has contacted or heard anything from the IAM, get up the info here. For it to be of any use at this stage, it has to be public - there is no network out there (I'd know if it existed), so until the 'seed is planted' and expansion is ready to occur, things have to be in public. Once things hit a critical mass, then things can and should be taken off public listing and all work done privately. This is what I was 'talking about' when I wrote of establishing an alternate method of communication among the grassroots organizers - a private, non-observable method of getting information out and exchanged
Express is toxic to virtually EVERY union out there - so much in fact that even the IBT has decided that it isn't worth the effort (despite what is going on within Express now). The IBT is making some half-hearted efforts towards Freight, but even there, they aren't committing themselves to a full blown effort. After the stomping they took in Massachusetts with their attempt to pull off a 'sneak' organizing effort at the Ground terminal there (they withdrew the petition a few days before the vote was to be held), they've been very 'sheepish' when it comes to anything FedEx.
I deliberately kept a low profile for the past couple of months, waiting to see if any Express Courier/s (who posts here or would PM me in regards to their efforts), would step up and lead an effort to establish a network of amateur Courier organizers to have any attempt at actually pulling something off. Nothing.
There has been lots of blame cast at the IBT for not 'stepping up' and expending a boat load of resources (it would run them in the 10s of millions of dollars to mount an organizing campaign) - when in fact the blame rest solely with the Couriers who are unwilling to commit their time to organize (all an amateur effort), to get the ball rolling.
'Professional time' costs money - big money. It would cost the IBT in the ball park of $10 million to get professional organizers out to the Express stations and do some serious organizing activity with any hope of pulling something off. Given the inclination of the 'typical' Express Courier (those you work with, not necessarily those who post and read here), does anyone here think that money would be well spent on their part?
Amateur organizing, cost virtually nothing - it just requires the commitment of TIME of those who are motivated enough to put forth the effort to change things and network with like minded people.
It has struck me as somewhat ironic if not hypocritical that the typical poster HERE expects the IBT to put forth millions in attempting to organize Express, when the most pissed off Couriers of Express (those who post here), aren't willing to commit themselves to 5 or so hours a week (every week), until a majority of Couriers have signed representation cards. It's alright for someone or some other organization to put forth large amounts of resources, but there aren't a few hundred Couriers out there who are willing to put forth a small amount of their personal time each week to attempt to pull off what they all presumably want so badly.
Where do you think the IBT gets its funds? I don't have a statement of cash flows for the IBT sitting in front of me, but I can safely state that the overwhelming majority if not practically ALL of their funding comes from their dues paying members. They may have some cash coming in from outside organizations who are sympathetic to the overall work of the IBT, but the IBTs operating capital comes from its members.
Why are the Express Couriers so convinced that they are ENTITLED to the IBT's operating capital in order to get THEMSELVES organized?
If the IBT did manage to organize and obtain a contract for the 30,000 or so Express Couriers, that would expand the IBT's membership by about 2%.
So the question again is asked, why do you (as an Express Courier), think you are ENTITLED to having the IBT expend a tremendous amount of its cash and potential political prestige (if they were to lose an organizing effort), in order to grow their membership by a whopping 2%?
These are hardball questions, and thinking about organizing the labor of a major corporation is hardball of the first order (for both the potential union members and the corporate management).
It would cost your employer approximately $500 million a year in additional compensation should the Couriers successfully organize - for them to spend a few million a year in 'insurance' (RLA lobbying) to try to avoid that expense is a no-brainer of the first order for your employer.
Since your employer will go to any lengths to avoid paying you what you are worth to them - then any attempt to change that situation is by definition, hardball for YOU.
All that has happened (in the past 4 years of my intermittently posting here), is a bunch of sophomoric slams against your employer's management, but absolutely NOTHING of substance (establishing that network) that would change your situation for the better.
Onto your employer...
From what I'm hearing, things are getting worse by the month there (OLCCs for not making goal when Couriers are following DRA to the T). That tells me right there that something is up. Not 'DRA up', but some other goal of pushing Couriers out the door. If Couriers are following DRA dictated patterns, then get hit with OLCCs for not making the old-fashioned route goal, logic dictates that one of two things is going on: 1) You employer's 'left hand' (goal maintenance) doesn't know what it 'right hand' (DRA dictated times) is doing (don't think this is it), or 2) a deliberate attempt to blame the Courier for the problems being experienced with DRA is occurring (what I think is happening).
Your employer is going to get DRA implemented, if they end up having virtually EVERY ONE of their experienced Couriers quit in the process (what I REALLY think their goal is - to get rid of the higher paid Couriers and replace them with entry level Couriers who have no knowledge of 'old school Express'). The ops managers I have corresponded with KNOW that what they are being told to do is absolute crap. They are to have their Couriers follow DRA (often with faulty leave building times or faulty stem times built into the route), but then they are to discipline their Couriers if they fall below an arbitrary goal for the month.
So if the Couriers are following DRA to the "T", why are they being held accountable for a route goal which was in place for 'old school' methods? Your managers know something is up...
The question is begged, "Does a DRA patterned route meet 100% or higher of expected goal"?
The managers that I have spoken and corresponded to have said flat out, that a DRA planned route, a majority of time DOESN'T meet the route SPH goal (a separate statistic with a separate report). Put another way. if one were to take the total on road time predicted by a DRA generated route, use that time to divide into the stops being delivered, then taking that SPH statistic and comparing it to the route expectation SPH, the end number will most of the time be significantly below 100%.
A classic "Catch-22" if there ever was one.
Something is up - Express (upper management) NEVER does anything without awareness of the potential consequences.
So what in the hell are you going to do about it - besides sophomoric insults hurled towards the upper management of the company for whom you work?
Cactus
Just telling it like it is
I signed a union card awhile back already but convincing others to do the same isn't real easy now is it or you would have led a union drive while you were employed by FedEx, right?
Myself, for me finding a better job is more realistic than the idea of the IBT ever doing anything for us. I mean really how much would it cost them to just hand out literature outside of Express stations? Or have just one meeting?
My opinion of the IBT is that their leadership sucks (like FedEx for example) and until Hoffa is out of there that will remain unchanged. And the possibility that Fred has them paid off too.
Myself, for me finding a better job is more realistic than the idea of the IBT ever doing anything for us. I mean really how much would it cost them to just hand out literature outside of Express stations? Or have just one meeting?
My opinion of the IBT is that their leadership sucks (like FedEx for example) and until Hoffa is out of there that will remain unchanged. And the possibility that Fred has them paid off too.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
A union drive cannot be led by one person - you know that. This is another thing that has gone on here for as long as I've posted and followed this forum, an absolute unwillingness among the readership to recognize what is needed when confronted with some basic facts. Then an attempt at deflection is made to divert any responsibility from themselves to do anything as a collective whole to change the situation.
Locations aren't successfully organized with one hand billing and one meeting. It takes multiple hand billings, multiple meetings. All of that costs MONEY to be done on a professional basis. Again, an attempt at deflection when confronted with the reality of the situation.
If a union is to commit to one hand billing and one meeting at/for each location (and that is IT), then they are flushing their money down the toilet - might as well not do it at all. They know that successful organizing takes months if not years in some industries - and that takes either professional organizers getting paid for putting in long hours in attempting to meet people in informal settings and dispelling the myths and fear about unions, or a number of amateur organizers who are willing to put in that time and get organization built.
The IBT isn't going to pay for organizers, and the Couriers of Express aren't willing to do the work themselves - so what is this persistent talk about, "We need a union"? Yes, you need a union, but given the REALITY as it exists, what the Couriers REALLY NEED is some commitment to do something to change the situation for themselves and not expect others to do the hard work for them. The best way to change the situation (given the reality), is to get the hell out of Express (what I did and many others are doing). For those who don't want to leave but want a union, what are they waiting for.....
It is well known that the IBT at this stage isn't going to spend much of anything on Express at this point (no point from past history and what is common knowledge out there). The Couriers (from what I've seen both when I was a Courier and here), are all talk and absolute no action. Why should any organization (union) commit itself to a long and expensive proposition (organizing drive), when all indicators (this place is a PRIMARY indicator whether you want to believe it or not), point to its failing no matter how much is committed to the effort?
What happened to all that talk about getting another union? I put up the list of the other unions for all to read and source for getting an alternative - only one poster came back with the IAM - that was a bust.
And if you really believe that the IBT is taking some sort of payoff from FedEx as a form of quid pro quo for not 'agitating' the Couriers of Express, then I don't know what to say. If you really believe that level of 'conspiracy' is going on, you'd best bail from Express PDQ - since the powers to be are REALLY playing you if that is the case.
chargerlou
Well-Known Member
We need one big time
