Who's The Winner In A Strike?

Fredless

APWA Hater
IF I was in UPS management reading this thread, I'd seriously LOL.

All of you, squabbling over unofficial facts..and its ONLY the first offer.
 

Runner

Member
I too thought ahead and took two weeks vacation in 97. I still have all the UPS handouts from their offer. Looking back health, welfare and pension benifits were clearly better under UPS's offer. I'm putting out $200 a month for prescriptions that would have cost me $5 under UPS's plan. I'm sure we would be looking at more than the $101 per full time year, that I'm currently looking at, for my pension. UPS's offer had $1.50 raise over 5 years vs the $3.00 we received. They had 2 profit sharing payouts, one in 97 for $3,060 and one in 2000 to be determined. Which is better depends on how much longer you would be working at UPS. There were many other differences that depending on your circumstances which were better in one plan or the other. From talking to other drivers in 97 I think had we been able to vote on UPS's offer it may have passed. To say we voted to strike is very disingenuous. The only thing we relly have as a union in negotiations is the threat to withhold our services. So taking a strike authorization vote 6 months earlier has to pass or we go into negotiations with no leverage. Had we been presented UPS's offer and than asked to strike, I doubt there would have been a strike.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
You lost the right to ask union questions when you scabbed in 97. You lost nothing but gained!

705 - I know from reading previous posts your distaste for scabs...I understand why you feel that way. Believe it or not I held a picket sign for two or three weeks back in 1976 in Southern Cal (I hope I have the year right!). It took two years to make up the 25 cent raise we got! It was a powerplay by the union leader when some trouble started in Pomona Ctr and felt he had been shown disrespect. Anyway, I don't want to get off on a tangent...sorry!

If Satellite pays union dues, he deserves to be represented by the union. He could make a good case if union officials do not represent him or answer union questions. I am assuming that if he works for UPS he is a union member - unless he lives in a riight to work state?:confused:1

Also - In this day and age - I feel that the clear cut winner in a UPS/Teamster strike is the competition.

This is my opinion; in years past during a different business climate....when UPS had no real competition. The job of both sides was to give away the least amount it could at just about any cost.

The hammer for the union was a strike! Prior to the national contract. Work stoppages or strikes were the norm not the exception.

In the last century, I do not feel the company or the union bargained in good faith.

Things have changed in 2007. The competition is poised to take our volume.
The company and the Teamsters have no choice but to bargain in good faith and come up with what both sides feel will sustain and improve the company and the Teamster membership.

Both sides will lose if negotiations continue into next year.

The unions best offense for next contract is to get Fed Ex unionized so that everyone is on a level playing field. This will give the Teamsters a position of strenght at the bargaining table if they have the competition locked up.

Years ago you didn't have to look at the entire transportation sector....Now you can't afford not to...
 

govols019

You smell that?
Your bias responses takes no one by surprise.

Well, no crap.

I have always been open in the support of my Union. The posting of obvious anti-Union articles from anti-union websites by an administrator I considered impartial bothered me. That's all.

If Satellite pays union dues, he deserves to be represented by the union. He could make a good case if union officials do not represent him or answer union questions. I am assuming that if he works for UPS he is a union member - unless he lives in a riight to work state?

Texas is a "right to work" state.

The unions best offense for next contract is to get Fed Ex unionized so that everyone is on a level playing field.

Agreed. Do I think it will happen? With the anti-union zeal of Fred S and the proven ineptitude of our current Union leadership, probably not.
 

sort rat

The Laughing Man
As far as "winning" a strike is concerned, a strike is a sacrifice. Obviously money is lost on both sides, but when negotiations come up for the next contract (like right now) UPS will remember the pain of financial loss. As for me the '97 strike hardly did damage to my bottom line, in fact we joke about as being a "three week cook out". Of course I don't want to strike, I have house payments like everyone else, plus I'm putting my wife through grad school but that doesn't mean I'll eat a contract I don't like. Sometimes, you just have to decide to bite the bullet. I doubt seriously if this contract is voted down that there will be a strike there is plenty of time before this one expires to work it out.
Please don't insult my intelligence by comparing a strike here at UPS with GM or any other company in financial stress. UPS is financially fine, in fact they in really good shape. We are in the service industry. Its kind of hard to farm out loaders and drivers to Mexico or China. This not the same thing as the auto industry. Yes, I know what you're thinking– gee the airlines are a service industry, and look at the shape the union s supposedly put them. Well I'm here to tell you (10 years at Pan Am) that business had its rules changed half way through the game (they called it deregulation). Its no accident that some airlines that make money (like SouthWest) pay more than those losing money.
As far as the losing a strike theory goes I remember what a friend from Eastern Airlines once told me when asked on why they (the IAM) went on strike knowing it would sink the company, "We didn't strike, we just up and quit our jobs." Like I said some times you have to make sacrifices.
 

Channahon

Well-Known Member
Reading all the posts lately regarding the proposed contract, this may give some insight on the timing of the contract negotiations and why talks were started so much earlier than normal.
Full article posted in UPS headlines forum


The Teamsters accord follows about a year of talks, which concluded early enough to avoid driving away UPS customers and before the union's self-imposed target of today.

Most terms of the agreement take effect Aug. 1, with the pension change to occur Dec. 26, Hall said.

The Central States Fund has suffered as several unionized trucking companies have failed or been acquired during the past decade, leaving UPS and other remaining employers to bear greater liability for retirees covered.

The fund is about 47 percent underfunded, and faces a shortfall of about $18 billion, Thomas Wadewitz, a JPMorgan Chase & Co. analyst, has estimated. UPS doesn't break out how much it pays into the fund annually.

The union wanted to reach an agreement by today to allow for member voting before Jan. 1, when federal legislation approved last year to shore up underfunded pension plans takes effect. UPS's withdrawal must be approved by the pension plan's trustees.

The Teamsters historically opposed UPS's efforts to pull out of Central States, and the dispute was a key factor in the union's two-week strike in 1997. Union President James P. Hoffa, whose father James R. Hoffa helped organize Central States in the 1950s, reversed course this year, saying the change would benefit members' retirement security.

Last Updated: October 1, 2007 16:07 EDT
 

alister

Well-Known Member
I think we still have 10 months to negotiate people. You have to be ready to strike or they will call your bluff. I have said it is great we started the talks early. But why are we taking the 1st offer? And why is the union pushing it so hard? There is the choice of voting no and saying you have 8 or so months to fix the things in it that we do not like. Then there is always extending the talks for a couple months at most to fine tune it. I hear the raises will be like 75 cents or so. Change to a flat 50 cent yearly raise and fix all the areas of the contract that we want fixed! Why are we acting this way when we made $4,200,000,000 in profit. Managers and on-roads have a very good salary, plus 1/2 months extra at Christmas, plus a pension, plus stock bonuses, AND 401K MATCHING FUNDS!!!!!!!!!! WHY ARE WE NOT DEMANDING AT LEAST THE 401K MATCHING FUNDS? Everyone that I tell about the fact that only management gets it not us states how stupid it is. It only makes good business sense. Heck we can't even get a discount on shipping with our own company yet my insurance company fringe benefit is that I can go to FedEx and get 25% off all shipping including air! What a joke huh?

the last time i herd the union was the one that was controlling your pension . Do you really think they would allow a matching 401k plan in which they are not control of their money(or is it your money, i keep getting confused about that)? wasn't this what the 97 strike was mostly about. UPS was trying to take over the pension or it was trying to get it into a joint (union and ups controlled) single employer plan. i am not sure which was true. apparently the union didn't think they should trust ups to have a hand in controlling the pension. to bad for CS, maybe they would have better benefits now.

sounds like there is a light at the end of the tunnel for CS though. it looks like the government may be taking over the pension plan starting jan 1 2008 since it is so seriously underfunded. maybe the government can finally get the pension plan working correctly for CS. we all know how well the government can handle things like this. i mean we all know how well the government handles stuff like this. i once heard that 40% of all the teamsters are part of the CS plan. so much for solidarity when it going to hit you in the pocket book. maybe the rest of you can at least get them cardboard boxes to live in.

to be honest, it sounds like this will be a much better plan for the company. just let the Union figure out what to do with the CS plan and just give the drivers a dollar raise every year. i bet it would take years for the raise to match that 6 billion ups was going to pay to get CS up and running again and keep the government from taking it over. oh what a minute, i bet the drivers want the 6 billion and the extra raises too. you know at one time i thought the pilots acted like princesses but it seems i may have underestimated the drivers.

maybe the best thing for ups to do is just let the current contract to go null and void and wait for you guys to strike and then turn around and fire you all and hire independent contractors to do the job cheaper. they already dummied down so many of the jobs at ups that they could hire people straight off the street to do your jobs. pas has made it real simple to train new employees on how to load the package cars. about the only postion that is still a skilled job with the hub are the sorters on the sort isle but they should have enough part time and full time sups to fill in until they have more trained on that. I but they could easily get independent contractor drivers to do the current drivers for less than $20 dollars an hour. how long does it take to train a driver on a diad board? do you think they could get a person off the street to follow the diad board's edd to delivery packages? to what i understand it, tells you guys every stop your suppose to do. maybe they will not be as good as the union workers but then again they can hire more of them since they will be cheaper. maybe ups was thinking ahead when it created pas and the diad 4 to be able to lessen the effect of the next strike.

there is one thing i wish could be added to the new contract. a clause in which every driver could will be fire for one month. during that month the driver has to find work outside ups. then have ups rehire the driver after a month of working at another company. this way they can see how the real world operates and then they could appreciate the jobs, the pay, and the benefits they have at ups.
 

brownmonster

Man of Great Wisdom
Alister, your'e an idiot. I see everyday how well people can load or deliver with the PAS/EDD system. You must be in IE cause no one else in the company has any faith in this useless technology. Are you against people making a good living? The company makes plenty of money while still providing good wages and benefits. Please start your sentences with a CAPITAL letter.
 

cheryl

I started this.
Staff member
Alister, your'e an idiot.
This sentence is a personal attack... I know you're emotional about this subject but please control yourself and comply with the community guidelines. In case you need a little TOS refresher:

Discussion can be animated, which is fine, but we do not welcome personal attacks, on- or off-site. It is inappropriate to say anything on a discussion forum about any individual or entity that you would not be prepared to say to them face-to-face.

It is fine to disagree with a different viewpoint, but please limit this to challenging the idea and not make your comments a personal challenge or make derogatory personal comments about individuals, their ideas or their situation. The latter is considered to be a flame and will not be tolerated.
 

Fredless

APWA Hater
alister...

lol.

just lol.:lol:

You guys can't and won't get good scabs with the amount of starting pay you offer. You all will screw it up so bad, you'll be begging us to come back to work.

If the drivers followed EDD to the T in my hub, you guys would burn through so much fuel it wouldn't be funny.
 

alister

Well-Known Member
alister...

lol.

just lol.:lol:

You guys can't and won't get good scabs with the amount of starting pay you offer. You all will screw it up so bad, you'll be begging us to come back to work.

If the drivers followed EDD to the T in my hub, you guys would burn through so much fuel it wouldn't be funny.

yea, i had fun writing it too. I wasn't serious about the last part. just wanted to ruffle the some feathers. I would be interested in how many people seriously think that the union would offer a matching 401k type plan? this takes money out of their control and something i have yet to see happen. they rather share control with ups than lose it all together to the government.

The deal with CS is a major problem effecting 40% union members and it seems that a majority don't care. some of you are under the impression that you have 10 month to hammer out the new contract. I guess 60% of you do but the other 40% only have until January to have a solid plan or risk the threat that the government get involved. I'm sure they will only complicate things.
 

local804

Well-Known Member
The Union has never paid my bills...Actually I got $300 a week for a few weeks in '97...But that didn't pay for much.....A stronger company is better for the employess than a stronger union.

Well we have a stronger company, I could only imagine UPS without a union. The union isnt here to pay your bills 1989. Why dont you put down your union bashing goggles on these forums and use your UPS-Teamster benefits to get your eyes and head examined.
please
 

local804

Well-Known Member
705 - I know from reading previous posts your distaste for scabs...I understand why you feel that way. Believe it or not I held a picket sign for two or three weeks back in 1976 in Southern Cal (I hope I have the year right!). It took two years to make up the 25 cent raise we got! It was a powerplay by the union leader when some trouble started in Pomona Ctr and felt he had been shown disrespect. Anyway, I don't want to get off on a tangent...sorry!

If Satellite pays union dues, he deserves to be represented by the union. He could make a good case if union officials do not represent him or answer union questions. I am assuming that if he works for UPS he is a union member - unless he lives in a riight to work state?:confused:1

Also - In this day and age - I feel that the clear cut winner in a UPS/Teamster strike is the competition.

This is my opinion; in years past during a different business climate....when UPS had no real competition. The job of both sides was to give away the least amount it could at just about any cost.

The hammer for the union was a strike! Prior to the national contract. Work stoppages or strikes were the norm not the exception.

In the last century, I do not feel the company or the union bargained in good faith.

Things have changed in 2007. The competition is poised to take our volume.
The company and the Teamsters have no choice but to bargain in good faith and come up with what both sides feel will sustain and improve the company and the Teamster membership.

Both sides will lose if negotiations continue into next year.

The unions best offense for next contract is to get Fed Ex unionized so that everyone is on a level playing field. This will give the Teamsters a position of strenght at the bargaining table if they have the competition locked up.

Years ago you didn't have to look at the entire transportation sector....Now you can't afford not to...



UPS lifer,
You seem to make some pretty reasonable posts coming from an ex manager (excuse if I am wrong) I just wonder if you had the same views while you held your position at UPS. Maybe being out of the limelight or under the brown microscope gave you a different view of the company/union. No offense to Sat Driver, but the scabs are no good for the union and are concidered a weak link in a chain. Right to work state or not, but if your one of a thousand that cross the line, well something isnt right.(using the few that crossed in our local compared to the 4k membership approx)
 

brownmonster

Man of Great Wisdom
I apologize for raging. Anytime someone tells me that PAS makes loading and driving a mindless occupation I blow up. Reality is in the trenches, not the ivory tower. BM
 

VTBrown

Well-Known Member
I apologize for raging. Anytime someone tells me that PAS makes loading and driving a mindless occupation I blow up. Reality is in the trenches, not the ivory tower. BM

Are you an old-timer? Afraid of change?

PAS is here to stay...stop bitching about it and work to get your loop fixed. It's as simple as that.

I'm a cover driver and always am going to management to get parts of a bid drivers route fixed. Most are the ones who are fighting the system.

PAS done right is a freaken godsend for a cover driver. So yes it has made our jobs easier. Same for preloaders.
 
First off I would like to Thank Cheryl, though new to the forum I believe she runs a very fair site, from all the different posts I've read, everyone has been allowed to state their own opinions. In regards to her posting an article written 10 yrs ago by another individual or establishment, well... I assume she did so on behalf of everyone involved. Simply put to educate us all on all perspectives regarding a strike. I do not believe she herself is Union Bashing, nor is she siding with UPS. She was simply attempting to post an article of interest to and for all of us. Interpret the article however you wish, after all it is as all of our contract language a matter of interpretation.
As for the Union, here in Detroit we all voted the last contract down, however.....
Jimmy pulled a fast one on us, basically the percentage of Union members voting fell short, we all voted the contract down, but not enough votes were cast. in other words some members didn't bother to mail their votes in. Thus
the outcome to our dissatisfaction was that the contract was forced upon us.
Shortly after, let me think, March of 2004 our entire pension plan changed
as we were told something to do with 9/11, CS lost money on their investments. To date their are several of us at our Hub STUCK, due to our age (not old enough) or the amount of money available for our retirement. 19 of us to be exact.

Let me also state another FACT, the Mechanics Union 1 yr later presented UPS's offer to their Members, the Membership voted it down. Their Union
though not the Teamsters came back and told it's Members "To BAD this is
the only offer your getting. Result, the contract was shoved down their throat.

The Union has it's purpose, I will give them that, I would not have what I have today without the Union, or for that matter UPS. I am grateful for both of them.

My point is when all is said and done I firmly believe this will be as fair an
offer as any of us will see, when of course we do get to see it, I just hope and pray that everyone gets a little piece of the pie. Some will like the offer
some won't, however the question really is did everyone get a piece of the
pie ? So when the time comes to VOTE, educate yourselves and by all means VOTE ! That's the key to all of this.

Oh and Cheryl, Thank You for all of your efforts, it saddens me tremendously to have the knowledge that others are attempting to take your site down.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
I apologize for raging. Anytime someone tells me that PAS makes loading and driving a mindless occupation I blow up. Reality is in the trenches, not the ivory tower. BM

PAS makes it so I can jump it your truck tomorrow (with a map) and get the route done. With the map I can see where, if any, the dol is off. I tranferred from a center with PAS to a center without PAS. Anybody can do any route, with few exceptions.
 

govols019

You smell that?
Considering the DOL was originally set up by the PAS team using only a map I find your claim dishonest.

PAS makes it so I can jump it your truck tomorrow (with a map) and get the route done.

I could do that before PAS. 95% of the routes I know I learned that way.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Considering the DOL was originally set up by the PAS team using only a map I find your claim dishonest.



I could do that before PAS. 95% of the routes I know I learned that way.


I did 60 routes that way before PAS. PAS just makes it much easier. PAS puts everything in prerecord for you.
 
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