brown bomber
brown bomber
provided you don't have a drunk dyslexic as a loader...then the system works
Who's The Winner In A Strike?
- Thread starter cheryl
- Start date
brown bomber
brown bomber
check out my reply...to the the perfection of the system...it's a joke.....BOTTOM LINE>>IF AIN'T LOADED CLOSE TO THE SPECIFICATIONS..IT'S A WASTE
satellitedriver
Moderator
No offense taken on my part.
But, I will tell you that my reasons for quiting the teamsters and going back to work was not monetary. I had enough money set back to wait out a 6 month strike and not change a thing in my lifestyle.
I was lied to and being manipulated by an internal power play in the teamsters, to the detriment of Upser's.
My personal moral code does not allow me to support or condone such behavior.
My "scabbing" may be a weak link to the teamster mentality, but when I saw intentional harm being directed at the company that has always met it's promises to me, I chose my side.
This diatribe is not directed at you 804, it is just my way of trying to explain why I had to make a hard decision.
Scabs may not be good for the union. I have never endorsed or posted that anyone should scab and I never will.
I believe in unions, just not the teamsters.
I also believe, all states should be right to work states. Freedom of choice is a basic constitutional right.
Where else in America are you forced to join an association and send them money?
PAX
UPS Lifer
Well-Known Member
I was fortunate enough to do just about every job at UPS other than working in automotive or being a mechanic. I always reminded myself where I started... at the bottom, like most of us. I have been fortunate to take my knowledge and use it wisely. I always put myself in someone else's shoes to help me stay grounded in my opinions and decisions.
During the national strike, I watched drivers make personal mostly verbal but some physical attacks on their supervisors. I (as did many others)watched a driver unzip his pants and display his private area to the Operation Manager (a woman) from behind the picket line.
So after the strike was over, I made it a point to work hard to mend the relationships for both sides.
I have had a great relationship with union officials, mainly because I treat these folks with the respect they deserve. When I was working, I treated the union as part of the team not as people trying to stop me from doing my job.
There was never an adversarial relationship. If we truely could not come to a concensus on a decision it was because of contract language that needed further interpretation through a panel decision. Most folks don't realize how strong an ally the union can be.
I was one of the few folks that was extremely leary about the company going public.
Why did I leave? ...it was time! I made a decision that no matter where I was in my career that I would leave at 55.
brownmonster
Man of Great Wisdom
Are you an old-timer? Afraid of change?
PAS is here to stay...stop bitching about it and work to get your loop fixed. It's as simple as that.
I'm a cover driver and always am going to management to get parts of a bid drivers route fixed. Most are the ones who are fighting the system.
PAS done right is a freaken godsend for a cover driver. So yes it has made our jobs easier. Same for preloaders
I'm not a dinosaur afraid of change. I sat down and put my entire route in including rural country roads that had to be put in with exact addresses for each stop so the system wouldn't apply PAL labels from other similar country roads and hwy's. I can run 95% and could do better but I'm too lazy to continue tweeking the route every time the system screws something up. If a cover driver ever tried to change something on my route we would have a talk. I agree the "system" is great, it's the piss-poor job of setting it up. The loops were "fixed" after years of adjusting to serve the customer and then some dope thought a computer would come in and just set it up and things would be great. What a joke. Saving 28 million miles a year? If we were wasting 28 million miles a year someone wasn't doing their job in the first place. Still way too much human error, maybe even more so than when loading and driving were skilled jobs. A change, yes, an improvement, not so much. BM
PAS is here to stay...stop bitching about it and work to get your loop fixed. It's as simple as that.
I'm a cover driver and always am going to management to get parts of a bid drivers route fixed. Most are the ones who are fighting the system.
PAS done right is a freaken godsend for a cover driver. So yes it has made our jobs easier. Same for preloaders
I'm not a dinosaur afraid of change. I sat down and put my entire route in including rural country roads that had to be put in with exact addresses for each stop so the system wouldn't apply PAL labels from other similar country roads and hwy's. I can run 95% and could do better but I'm too lazy to continue tweeking the route every time the system screws something up. If a cover driver ever tried to change something on my route we would have a talk. I agree the "system" is great, it's the piss-poor job of setting it up. The loops were "fixed" after years of adjusting to serve the customer and then some dope thought a computer would come in and just set it up and things would be great. What a joke. Saving 28 million miles a year? If we were wasting 28 million miles a year someone wasn't doing their job in the first place. Still way too much human error, maybe even more so than when loading and driving were skilled jobs. A change, yes, an improvement, not so much. BM
Brownnblue
Well-Known Member
Two extremely good points!!!!
I covered many a route back in the day with just a map. I know I did a good job because I was given more work, more routes, and no respect.
PAS does solve some problems (if set up right, but that is a different story) but it creates just as many.
IMO, The winner of a strike is the employee. The UPS union employee does not lose anything. Actually he gains. Let me explain. Folks its all what you compare it to. I will use this example. The numbers I'll use will just be for the sake of using numbers. Ok, Lets say a Teamster ft driver makes $60,000 a year. A Fedex non union driver makes $50,000 a year. A Dhl non union/some are union drivers make $30,000 a year. Keep that in mind. I than will take a UPS dirver that has worked 5 years before he goes on strike. Lets do a little math. $60,000(UPS) - $50,000(fedex) = $10,000. Take that $10,000 and times it by 5 giving you a total of $50,000. That would be your strike fund. Do you see my point? By being a unionized Company your wages are alot higher than the non union company. The difference in income is your strike fund. For without the union you would probably be making the same or less as the non-union employee. Thats how I look at it.
The problem with that. Is that most/ not all(Teamsters) adjust their lifestyle to match their level of income. Again, Teamsters the strike fund is allready given to us in the difference of our union wage to non union wage. The monies is incorporated in our wages prior to the years before the strike. Its all who you compare it to. The sad part is most didn't see it or plan for it that way.
The problem with that. Is that most/ not all(Teamsters) adjust their lifestyle to match their level of income. Again, Teamsters the strike fund is allready given to us in the difference of our union wage to non union wage. The monies is incorporated in our wages prior to the years before the strike. Its all who you compare it to. The sad part is most didn't see it or plan for it that way.
UPS Lifer
Well-Known Member
Area43 -
I agree with you on the concept of the power of negotiation being a union member. To keep it simple... you get more because there is more at stake if you strike. There is a lot of power behind organized labor. NO DOUBT!
But strike is a 5 letter word! Tell me how much you get when your company does not have the volume (because a strike forced the volume to other carriers) and goes out of business or is relegated to being a third rate carrier???
11
gandydancer
Well-Known Member
Ever hear of the IRS?
BigBrownSanta
Well-Known Member
I agree with you, except that if it weren't for our union, fedex's wages wouldn't be $50,000.
Fighting4yourRights
Heavy Weight
I remember Christmas times as a child. We would have so much fun decorating the tree and ma would give us kids a shot of egg nog on Christmas Eve. Oh wait, what was the topic of this thread?
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Area43 -
I agree with you on the concept of the power of negotiation being a union member. To keep it simple... you get more because there is more at stake if you strike. There is a lot of power behind organized labor. NO DOUBT!
But strike is a 5 letter word! Tell me how much you get when your company does not have the volume (because a strike forced the volume to other carriers) and goes out of business or is relegated to being a third rate carrier???
Sacrafices in the short term will benefit the worker in the long run. Even at the expense of the company becoming third rate carrier or goes out of business. I answered the question and IMO I believed I was correct. No offense Lifer but your many days in mgt might have skewed your judgement. Let me explain.
The history of the strike. Lets go back to the beginning. Lets talk about the great pay and bennies of the early 1900's(sarcasm). Lifer would you want to be working on one of those assembly lines. The 12 to 14 hour days. No or little breaks. Vacations, Ha. If you got hurt there was no comp. The fear of being fired was a daily occurence. Etc, Etc, Etc. Brutal to say the least. I believe you are starting to get my point. The worker had to choose being laid off(loss of volume) by striking the Company for its questionable practices or get terminated by a brutal way of managing. I ask you this. What way would you choose? Be fired or get laid off(because of strike). I would choose the strike. As you can see because of the strike. Its has set the standard for Pay and bennies for all workers. Union, Non Union and Salary. Better Safety conditions came out of it. Mim Wage laws. Overtime. 40 hr a work week. Yes, companies fell by the way side. Sacrafices were made by the workers in the short term present of the strike(duration) but in the many years to come we have reaped the rewards. So the winner of a strike is the Employee.
705red
Browncafe Steward
Area very well said. I still do not see th point to this post from the site? This thread is not relevant to the discussions on the contract that we were having. Now that the contract is out to be viewed, i have not noticed any way out there rumors on the contract. It seems alot of the rumors were dead on what this offer was. Now im sitting back and reading and rereading this contract like i hope the rest of you are.
I hope everyone here is aware that if we vote this contract down it DOES NOT mean that we will strike. So make an informed decision on how this contract affects you and the others around you, and dont just vote yes because this site has started a scare campaign on ups's behalf to intimidate you into voting for a sub-par contract.
Area i noticed your signature brother, you are aware that ups will save millions during this contract alone by opting out oc cs with 6.1 billion compared to the 1.4 billion per year they will pay into it by staying. Not trying to change your mind on your point of view, just do a little research and see that ups benefits the most by opting out.
Red, I believe this thread is about strikes in general. Yes, it shows an article about the 97 strike. My last post I focused on what Lifer had posted that the company would become a third rate carrier or become out of business. I just took it a little farther. Don't take this thread as a signal to strike or not in 08.
About UPS saving millions. Yes Red, I know that they will be saving money in the long run by getting out. Its the up front 6.1 billion they have to pay Now. How much time must elaspe before they recoup all that money back? Could it be 5 , 10 , 15 years. Who knows. I do know this. UPS is going to be cracking that whip. To recoup their losess as soon as possible.
UPS Lifer
Well-Known Member
705,
I noticed your last post to area43.
I could be wrong, but from what I have seen in the past, UPS looks at the contract process from the long term where as a lot of the employees that the contract affects look at what the contract gives them right now.
The company has to protect the long range goals and interests(more than a generation from now) while most employees are looking at less than one generation ahead...if that! My real feeling is that the majority of employees which includes our very valued part time folks, look at this contract as to how it affects them right now!
Union Officials have seen big companies go by the wayside and realize that they also need to look at the future of the company and the union and I feel they negotiate for the immediate and long range future.
Am I wrong?
I guess my point is that you and I do not want the company to make poor decisions. It could affect all of our futures. The company pays now but benefits in the future. This is a good investment in your future.
I noticed your last post to area43.
I could be wrong, but from what I have seen in the past, UPS looks at the contract process from the long term where as a lot of the employees that the contract affects look at what the contract gives them right now.
The company has to protect the long range goals and interests(more than a generation from now) while most employees are looking at less than one generation ahead...if that! My real feeling is that the majority of employees which includes our very valued part time folks, look at this contract as to how it affects them right now!
Union Officials have seen big companies go by the wayside and realize that they also need to look at the future of the company and the union and I feel they negotiate for the immediate and long range future.
Am I wrong?
I guess my point is that you and I do not want the company to make poor decisions. It could affect all of our futures. The company pays now but benefits in the future. This is a good investment in your future.
705red
Browncafe Steward
Lifer im all for looking long term. I would sacrafice my hourly raises to invest it into my retirement pension for this contract, similiar to what the iam mechanics did to get their pensions to what they are now.
However you cannot believe that ups is looking long term when in this contract they leave the starting p-time wage at $8.50. While they do go up after 3 quarters of a year(90 day) to a whopping $10.50 an hour they receive no medical for a whole year. Ups will spend after 90 days an additional roughly $40 a week in wages for $200 a month xs 9 months = $1800 in wages for a 1st year ups p-timer. Now they save estimated $700 a month in medival for the same employee that they would have received after the 1st 40 days. $700 xs 10 months = $7000 now minus the wage increae $1800 ups now saves $5200 a year for every new hire p-timer hired. We need to take better care of the p-timer or this company will suffer in their long term goals. You will not get good quality p-timers with this pay and benefit package!
Hi Sat,
Sat with all do respects, I am going to try and convince you not to cross the line. I believe I understand your position on why you crossed. It also appears that you have a strong work ethic.
First, Right to work states. I live in one. I have no problem with it. If someone wants to cross the picket line. Go right ahead. I dont mean to be confrontational with you Sat., but I disagree with your answer on the reason you crossed the line.
Second, Sat when you say you had deep moral convictions and that is why you crossed seems to have a subliminal mess tied to it that says, the rest of us do not. That might not be your intentions, but it does come a cross that way. I did not agree with all that the Teamsters were striking about in 97. Who was? The point is. There were some things in that contract worth fighting for. Ex. Temps to be use 12 mons out of the year. Not good.
Do you know what type of people started the Teamsters. The poop birds and hoods. The old school, highly ethical and conservative workers did not. In fact even with the automakers, it was the trouble makers that started the Union. Organized Labor/ Organized Crime. Hmmmm. Strike, could it be a form of extortion. Perphaps. Teamsters/Mobsters. Having said that I would question all Unions intentions. Yes, they help the common laborer, but in turn do they help themselves? Sat. would you have struck the Ford automobile company in the earlier 1900's. Our would you have crossed the line? Why work for UPS? Could that be against your moral compass? All Pay and bennies that we have acquired over the years are from the result of corrupt means. Extortion. Give us what we want or we will strike you and put you out of business. Sat. just something to think about. Sat what would you strike for? Safety conditions, perphaps.
Let me also throw this at you. Asia. All those sweat shops. Slave labor for American companies. Nike(the shoe company), said years ago when they moved operations over there that the price of shoes would come down. Have they? LOL Why aren't the people of Asia rising up and starting unions? Is it their governments that stops them? Or is it because the people have high moral work standards. Perphaps it goes against their character to start a union/strike. Fear of being replaced,could be another factor. Folks Im just throwing stuff out there. Just to get you thinking. What Asia needs is a Mafia. LOL Organize those people. Do some good ol extortion. Bring those companies to their knees.
Sat. in closing I feel that if your convictions are so strong that you might not to work for UPS anymore. I might be wrong in saying this. Feel free to respond.
Red, this is the second false accusation you have made about this site. First you accused me of sending out anti union messages. Although that false statement was an obvious attempt to tarnish the reputation of this website I did not take any action against you because I trust that our community will be able to see it for what it is. I asked you to provide proof of that accusation or for anyone that had received any of those messages to step forward, and no one did, including you.
Now you accuse me of starting a scare campaign on ups's behalf... Please provide any evidence of this accusation. Don't make it another hit and run accusation like the last charge you made and then you never provided anything to substantiate your charge.
If you are going to claim that this "scare tactic" was the archived articles I posted then I will bring to your attention that prior to posting these articles I posted several links to archived discussions about what people wanted from the new contract, those could be regarded as pro union.
I have been very tolerant of your obvious hostility and insults toward me and false accusations against this website. Has anyone been unable to state their opinion here despite declaration of an anti brown cafe email campaign to "take the site down" because you and your friends don't want more than one viewpoint expressed here? My patience is running out... please stick to the topic at hand and stop trying to tear me down or move on to another website.
705red
Browncafe Steward
Cheryl i call it like i see it. In the mesaging i meant thread starting. You stated you wanted to balence out the info on the contract talks evenly? But yet you post opinions on how the rank and file lose in a strike. I asked you what bearing 10 year old articles have on the current talks? You started 4 or 5 anti union or union bashing threads and none of them were relevenat to the contract debate or the so-called conspiracy to over throw the website with false contract rumors. Well now the contract is out and i have not seen any thing stated that was false. Anyone can google and come up with a million different opinions on the 97 strike, yet you choose to slam us the working men and woman and scare us into excepting what ever we are offered basically. If you want to even the playing surface on a certain topic stick to the topic. If you would have posted proof that the rumors were lies that would have been one thing but you went above and beyond to union bash!
I have never been hostile towards you or insulted you, i have only spoke my opinion.
