Whos voting "No", and why?

[feederdryver]

Tieguy-

You say you don't know what's with Feeder drivers? Well pretty soon there won't be a Feeder Dept to know anyways.,

FYI.. We have NO sleeper runs out of my HUB, which employs about 170 Feeder drivers..(20 or more are STILL laid off and doing recycles in the hub or sitting on unemployment). So I wouldn't know the benefits of a sleeper run. I think we have 1 or 2 mileage runs..thats it. We are still running with 1980's cab-over International tractor models (7 speeds) and most of our outlying centers have yet to even see a new CH600 Mack. On top of that, our TDP trailers are falling apart. Minimal mainteneance is being used on them just to keep them in service, and they all need new paint jobs. Our automechanics are under-staffed and management won't allow them to buy the expensive parts needed for our older tractor models. Remember when all our trailers were freshly painted and shining in the sun?? The company will not spend any more money towards new tractors or adequate maintenence, because they are looking forward to utilizing the independent brokers that UPS Logistics will be hiring...
Yeah your right..you don't seem to know.

 

[thedrooler]

Whatever it takes to make and keep a business profitable, within the bounds of what's ethical and legal, is what should be done by any company that wants to stay in business. If this means staffing cuts, so be it. If this means re-organizing parts of or all of the business, so be it. This is a part of Business and Economics 101. You don't have to like it, but it's the reality of business.

Drooler

 

[tieguy]

My point again is you feeder drivers do all the worrying yet you make the most money and get the most gains out of each contract.

 

[feedrman73]

I am amazed at tieguy's responses. He refuses to address the issues but simply brings up unrelated topics. I spent 4 years part-time and then 15 years in a package car paying my dues prior to bidding on Feeders. UPS will be shifting feeder jobs to UPS logistics because it will be cheaper. I would do the same thing if I was UPS management. I have been at UPS for almost 30 years now. I remember when you called our 800 number you talked to a UPS employee. Now you talk to a subcontractor. I remember when there was a mistake on my check my sup would call payrole and talk to a UPS employee, now he talks to a subcontractor. I remember when the clerks right there in the UPS building where all UPS employees but now in many instances they show up at UPS they help run UPS but they don't work for UPS they are subcontractors. The only reason package is not subcontracted is because there is language to prevent it. Our protection in feeders was just removed from the contract. That means that UPS will do what is economically in their best interest which is eliminate as much of feeders as possible. That will force me back to a package car which I can easily handle for the 5 years I have left. However seniority runs downhill which means that for each feeder job eliminated a full time package driver will be losing a job and will be working in a hub. And two part timers will be on unemployement. These are the facts of this contract. They can not be ignored simply because the lucky 30% of feeder drivers still working are paid a good wage. And for each of you package drivers in centers with few feeder drivers who think there job is safe just think what will happen if in the next contract they decide to subcontract your job but offer the part-timers the 3 or 4 dollar raise they were expecting this time. Part-timers will vote the contract in and you will be out of a job just like most of the Feeder drivers will be now. And before you say this will not happen tieguy 100% of all Fedex ground drivers are subcontractors!!! They only way to stop this is to vote no and UPS will simply remove the letter of understanding (not part of contract for obvious reasons of attempted concealment) that allows for subcontracting of feeder work. I feel reasonably sure that if UPS was eliminating your job the fact that your old friends still working made good money would be of little solice to you or your family.

 

[robonono]

Total B... S...!

 

[thedrooler]

feederman73

BooHoo BooHoo.

Drooler

 

[ok2bclever]

Another mature quality post by the Drooler . . .

No intelligent participant in this forum would deny the obvious necessity of the company making a profit to stay in business and protect our livelihood.

That really isn't a factor here unless you are going to go into the old bogeyman cry UPS management has been using since at least Railroad Express went out of business. Always they have cried (as their profits became new annual records) that if they were forced to give us a raise or were to improved other aspects of working at UPS they would go out of business.

There are limits to how much money UPS can commit to the contract, but that limit has not been even remotely approached.

Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any limit to the profit margin that a business must make here in the USA. The only rule is it must be more than the year before. And if that means eliminating employees and destroying families in the process, so be it.

The greed of the worker is nothing compared to the greed of the company, any company.

 

[upsdood]

I am voting not.. Hoffa is sleeping with the enemy. He has sold us out. Like all the rest of the ties... you people must read between the lines. Wake up you pawns.....

 

[michael]

ok2bclever;

Remember there are always three sides to every story. Their side, your side, and THE TRUTH. I have always found the later very elusive. In addressing your comment

The greed of the worker is nothing compared to the greed of the company, any company.

I would only ask you to look at the number of trucking companies that have gone out of business in the past 15 years or so. (maybe even go back a little further) What do you think caused this? I am not so naive to think that there was only one thing that caused this; however there seems to be a common (and rather large) thread running through there.

You seem to have a problem with a company and its investors that take a huge financial risk while trying to make a profit, and yes I said PROFIT it is not a dirty word! In fact its what keeps people IN jobs. Without it, everything would go away.

Now do I believe that EVERY company and EVERY management person is 100% above board? Only a fool would believe that. There are some not so above board companies and managers out there, but overall I believe UPS has been fair to its employees. I know that everyone will give me their own personal experiences about how the company screwed them, but I qualified my statement by saying that I did not believe that every company and management person was above board UPS INCLUDED.

One last thing, you made the statement

There are limits to how much money UPS can commit to the contract, but that limit has not been even remotely approached.}

Why do you think that? Have you seen, analyzed, or audited the companys balance sheet and books? Have you forecasted future expenses? Projected future earnings? I would be interested in what your idea is on what the limit is or would be.

 

[lr1937]

I posted this on another board, but I think it applies to this thread. You can substitute feeder driver, pkd driver or whatever job you want in place of part time. It all boils down to the same thing.

What would you suggest in the contract that still allows ups to be competitive and not loose jobs to competitors. You will continue to have the best pay and benefits for what you do and what many other professional and non professional employees do. How do you expect to continually get monatary benefits with out some concessions that keep your company competitive. Your working conditions and the contract language for saftety and other concerns are as good as it gets. No one promisses part timers full time jobs. Meeting high expectations in a contract may make it longer for part timers to get jobs because of loosing volume to the competition. Seniority part timers pay and benefits are as good as it gets. Go look for part time work and compare and if you find better you should go their. There is no promiss for full time work and how many part time jobs pay extra for holiday work. Does fedex? airborne? the post office, McDonalds etc.
I for one am concerned that the present contract is going to jeopardize are competitive position. A customer looking at the contract would surmise nothing but increases in their rates for the next 6 years to pay for what you are going to vote no for. I don't know if we will get back the volume lost to fedex and others because of the threat of a strike. Are you concerned about this?
I am beginning to understand the meaning of greed myself. No matter how good ups stock does I want more. UPS is one of a few companies that has remained stable or done better during these difficult economic times but I continue to read about wanting more. How much is enough? I think our customers may be able to determine when greed has replaced realistic expectations and a no vote by our employees, who by the way, may make more than some of our customers, the people running the businesses, may be the straw to break the camels back.
An insatiable desire to to posses or acquire something to an amount inordinately beyond what one needs or DESERVES. This is me at times. How about the rest of you?

 

[feedrman73]

lr1937 The money in the new contract amounts to about 4% a year. Hardly what you would call threatning to the health of UPS. This is nearly an identical increase % wise as the last contract and UPS has gone on to make record proffits which by the way I am very thankful for. As to your comments, "what would you suggest be in the contract that would allow UPS to be competitive." I would have voted yes if these simple articles had been put in the contract. Under the 9.5 article, you should be able to file after the 2nd day you work over 9.5,remember this would apply only if you said in advance you do not want the overtime, some people want all they can get. If not settled locally then the next time a driver went over 9.5 he or she would be paid double time for all time spent over 9.5. Trust me this would have cost UPS little to nothing. Managers faced with extra cost would have made sure that the dispatch was fixed. Under Article one I would have simply eliminated the letter of understanding and added the "use of a subcontractor is also forbidden". I also would have eliminated the letter of understanding giving UPS an out on the full-time jobs (2% drop in volume). I would have added that every Package car must be washed daily. I think that our image is suffering due to the sorry state of some of our equipment on the road. I for one have not forgotten Jim Casey's famous, " We may go down but we will go down with a clean truck!" Although this would have a small cost I believe the long term gain in public image would benefit UPS greatly. I have seen several package cars in my area with cute little sayings like "wash me and Hoffa sucks" written in the dirt on the back doors of our trucks. Not exactly the tightest ship in the shipping business. These few things would have cost next to nothing and I would have been extremly pleased with the contract.

 

[ok2bclever]

Michael, Michael,Michael,

Perhaps you should reread my post. You start out raising the old bogeyman of going out of business which I thought I debunked thoroughly enough in my statement to keep that ole management chestnut from being pulled out and shouted from the rooftops again. Apparently not. Experiencing that from UPS the last thirty years has gotten real old.

You are not really looking for credibility if you think anyone here truly believes UPS is in danger of going out of business.

Then you make the false statement that I have a problem with profit. Please don't put words in my mouth. Especially when I made it very plain that I believe profit is a fundamental necessity.

The first point I made was that profit was necessary and within decent parameters a positive thing. It is the skewed never ending upward spiral at all costs that I have a problem with.

The point on limits was mainly to point out there were limits. But if you think UPS was pushed to the edge you are dreaming. I am more than willing to pour over the stats if you can give me deciding control of what to do with them.

, didn't think so.

No contract will address all issues satisfactorily for all participants, but I believe this one fell quite short of satisfying a large section. I don't have a problem with the wage increase, in fact that is not where I personally would have directed the money, but whatever.

You just have to look around at the state of affairs at such as Worldcom, Enron, etc to know the business of business has put ethics well behind the visible profit line / stock price issue.

 

[thedrooler]

clever(?)

And who sets the "decent parameters", you? I don't think so. As far as your problem with corporate business ethics, lump the teamsters in there with the Enrons and World Coms of the world. You only have to look as far as federal and local prisons to see where their ethics are.

Drooler

 

[upslocal480]

}Well I had a few reasons why I was going to vote no but it seems that I won't be gettin my ballot. Oh I'm sure it'll arrive AFTER the deadline. You gotta love our fellow "brothers and sisters" down at the local and in the higher ranks. They sure know how to stick it to ya good. To think I've paid out 23.00/month to them all this time and can't even vote on the contract. I guess I could get as much out of my dues if I just withdrew my membership and took a cig lighter to the 23.00/month instead. At least then I could watch it being burned!

 

[lr1937]

Reasons for voting no
1. Best pay, health-welfare and pension benefits in the industry and probably the best to be had for most jobs period.
2. Safest,best maintained fleet money can buy and in the industry and safety language in the contract that insures your safety. The language isn't needed because it is just good business and ups would do it anyway.
3. Paid for time off. Vacations, sick leave, personal holidays etc
4. Drug and alchohol abuse language that protects you and a company that will provide help to those who need it.
5. Excellent language to take care of grievances and grienvance machinery that works.
6. Language that prevents unnecessary contracting work to non union companies.
7. Supplemental language that protects individual sections of the countries unique conditions.
8. Competition language that says there will be cooperation to meet the competition.
9. Great protection of seniority.
10. Paid jury duty and funeral leave.
11. Leave of absence language
12. Military leave
13. National Safety & Health committee
14. Subcontracting language
15. Temp alternate work for injured
16. Sunday and holiday pay
17. Pay for work in different classifications
18. Lay off and recall language to protect your seniority.
19. Meal period language that spells out your breaks.
I am getting tired typing. I wish I were a union person so that I could vote no for this lousy contract.

 

[upsmule]

ar1937...WOW, was that the year you were born? Or are you still living in 1937 in your head? what a great post about a bunch of "language" Talk is cheap! And so is this contract!!!!!!!

 

[robonono]

Wow, lr1937, I guess upsmule told you - contract language is cheap and is meaningless.

Please explain further, upsmule, what color is the sky in your little world? If not contract language, what did UPS and the IBT negotiate over these past 6 months?

 

[feedrman73]

Lr1937: Lets take them 1 at a time.
1. We have excellent pay the best in the Industry. True. We had that before the new contract and I don't know anyone who considered more money a priority, other than enough to keep up with inflation which is just about what we got.
2. Safest, best maintained fleet in the country. False. It used to be and still is mechanically maintained due to the fine union mechanics we have. However due to recent cost cutting measures our equipment is washed only when so dirty you cant read the name on the side anymore. This creates safety issues when drivers can not see out windows, or walk on the grease covered floors. Language was needed to force UPS to wash equipment.
3. Paid for time off for sick days vacations ect. True. However those of us in the south average 2 to 5 sick days less than other parts of the country. Should have been addressed in southern sup.
4. Drug language. True
5. Grievance language. True. However language needed to be added to shorten the time to arbitration. Some cases take over a year to be heard. The 10,000 jobs in last contract took 18 months.
6. subcontracting, You said it best "unnecesary" who decides what is necesary?(UPS) Big loophole in the memorandum of understanding should never had been agreed to and is the biggest reason a lot voted no.
7. Supplemental language. True. Nothing was done however to equal some of the language. There is nothing unique to allow for some places to get 30 minutes paid meal and 10 personal days while others get 7 personal days and no paid break. The international needs to fix the huge difference in benefits between regions.
8. true
9. seniority protection. False in a lot of supplements they have lengthened the time it takes to exersise this seniority. Plus they lowered the pay scale after you do.
10. true
11. true
12. true
13. true
14. subcontracting: false: while they fixed the problem with the clerks they did nothing about the rail and once again the memorandum of understanding totally screws feeders.
15. T.A.W. work: false: The company picks and chooses who they want to participate. Clear language spelling out a process was badly needed.
16. Sunday and holiday pay: true for holidays false for Sundays. The union allowed the company to exempt anything to do with air.
17. Pay for work in different clasifications: true
18. lay off language: true
19. Meal language: Really false although it is there, it varies greatly from place to place. And the companys blatant disregard for the inforcement of the you must take your meal during the day (package) was not addressed and MUST BE! The company continually loads drivers to the point they can not take a lunch during the day. Then intimidates them so that they do not complain.

I think you and others continually miss the point when we complain about language. We wanted the loopholes fixed that kept the points you spoke of from being true. At first glance we have all those things in the contract but once you start applying it there is so much wiggle room its sad. For example we have part-timers who drive every single day for years with out gaining seniority.(cover driver abuse) We wanted strong language to enforce the abuse of overtime. (new 9.5 language practically useless) We wanted strong language to stop the conversion of volumn to rail and UPS logistics. side letter negates the language in contract. (article 1 sec. 4) Those of us in the south wanted an equalization of benefits with those in other regions. Feeder drivers wanted language on milage runs. We wanted language to force UPS to maintaing the equipment like they used to do without being forced. And we did not want the continuation of the two tier full-time job situation which is really what a combo job is. To sum up we wanted the problems fixed and very few were.

 

[upsmule]

good question there bono...answer, a whole lot of NOTHING I'd say. Wich is just what all of us will get once this useless contract passes....sad

 

[thedrooler]

feederman and mule

Get out while you still can! Run away from the evil that is UPS! There are plenty of high-paying jobs with great benefits out there. And they're easier too. And you can be your own boss. Damn UPS, trying to tell you how they want to run their company. I'll bet if you guys owned a business you would let your employees tell you what thet would and wouldn't do, and you'd do it gladly. Wouldn't you.

Drooler