Wind Power Innovations

[soberups]

The iidea is not something for nothing. It is applying the undesired force of wind resistance in a more desirable direction. It is using lift to take a calculated force off the chassis not by feet, but by inches. It's an exercise in directional airflow and possibilities deriving from it.

"Something for nothing" was a poor choice of words on my part.

Another way to say it that lift equals drag. Lift is simply airflow routed in a different direction.

If your goal is to increase MPG then a wing wont help you because the decrease in rolling resistance you get from the lift is offset by the drag.

Additionally, a wing on a car will only generate lift at high speeds, but the additional weight of the wing and the drag it creates will be borne by the car at ALL speeds.

 

[moreluck]

Well it's not hard as neither are really that deep of a thinker. And thanks for the laugh too!

You guys are buddies from way back....

Post 399 in Iran UpstateNYUPSer said: ↑
I noticed you chose not to respond to wkmac. Good choice---you don't have the mental prowess to go toe-to-toe with wkmac.


Post 406 (Iran)
Moreluck's' silence toward wkmac speaks volumes.

Party on.....

 

[oldngray]

You guys are buddies from way back....

Post 399 in Iran UpstateNYUPSer said: ↑
I noticed you chose not to respond to wkmac. Good choice---you don't have the mental prowess to go toe-to-toe with wkmac.


Post 406 (Iran)
Moreluck's' silence toward wkmac speaks volumes.

Party on.....

It is better to pop in and toss out a couple of insults without making any positive comments (according to him). If he had read more and posted less he would have seen some of the comments I had already made about the practicality of this idea. Although maybe he already bolted a wing onto his little front wheel drive car.

 

[wkmac]

"Something for nothing" was a poor choice of words on my part.

Another way to say it that lift equals drag. Lift is simply airflow routed in a different direction.

If your goal is to increase MPG then a wing wont help you because the decrease in rolling resistance you get from the lift is offset by the drag.

Additionally, a wing on a car will only generate lift at high speeds, but the additional weight of the wing and the drag it creates will be borne by the car at ALL speeds.

Yes. That was part of my point in speaking of interstates verses roads with curves as one has to slow down to corner. At slower speeds without the lift, the full weight of the car transfers to the engine requiring more power to move the weight. Seems to me the efficiency bbsam was searching for is lost.

Instead of just a wing, I wonder if the entire car body would be designed with moveable panels to simulate a wing effect or better said, to optimize lift to a certain point? On board computers capable of 1000's of calculations per sec. could make adjustments on the fly to maintain optimum lift not unlike an friend-1 car as I understand it creates downforce in the corners to maintain highspeed turning and then reduced drag in straightaways for top end speed.

How do you find that sweet spot between to much lift that sends you flying and not enough having you dragging an anvil?

Still like bbsam's thinking outside the box. The greatest advancements are a result of that and often from guys under shade trees so to speak rather than wearing white coats and holding official papers because they've not been taught dogmatic rules that keep you in a box.

 

[oldngray]

The idea is interesting but won't work in my opinion. Physics says there ain't no free lunch, so any possible benefit is cancelled by the disadvantages. I picture it to be like jumping up inside an elevator. The force you exert to go up is cancelled by the downward push on the elevator. In the wind power example you can't create lift without drag and there are the other factors that also negative possible benefits.

 

[oldngray]

The idea does work on water if you think of it as a hydrofoil.

 

[wkmac]

Established science and even religion (at one time they were one) would have said many of the things we do today are just as impossible as you think bbsam's idea are but look at us now. Many of these thing you and I do without a thought in the world that once it was thought impossible. To us it seems very natural. 500 years from now we may seem as ignorant cavemen as a result of what could be learned in the years ahead.

 

[wkmac]

The idea does work on water if you think of it as a hydrofoil.

Water and air are the same, just different in density.

 

[oldngray]

Water and air are the same, just different in density.

Both fluids, yes but still very different in applications.

 

[wkmac]

Both fluids, yes but still very different in applications.

Yep, that density thing.

 

[oldngray]

Yep, that density thing.

Water is not compressible but the air is which also makes a difference.

 

[wkmac]

Water is not compressible but the air is which also makes a difference.

Never argued that point.

 

[bbsam]

"Something for nothing" was a poor choice of words on my part.

Another way to say it that lift equals drag. Lift is simply airflow routed in a different direction.

If your goal is to increase MPG then a wing wont help you because the decrease in rolling resistance you get from the lift is offset by the drag.

Additionally, a wing on a car will only generate lift at high speeds, but the additional weight of the wing and the drag it creates will be borne by the car at ALL speeds.

It's hard for me to believe that considering what ultralight aircraft are able to fo with 30 to 50 hp motors. I agree though that it's a radical departure from common thought about aerodynamics. It's like judo. Use the opponent's strength to your own advantage.

 

[rod]

 

[soberups]

It's hard for me to believe that considering what ultralight aircraft are able to fo with 30 to 50 hp motors. I agree though that it's a radical departure from common thought about aerodynamics. It's like judo. Use the opponent's strength to your own advantage.

Apples to oranges.

Trading drag for lift is a necessary compromise for an aircraft when your goal is to get it to fly under its own power.

Trading drag for lift doesnt gain you anything when your goal is to increase MPG in a car.

 

[bbsam]

Apples to oranges.

Trading drag for lift is a necessary compromise for an aircraft when your goal is to get it to fly under its own power.

Trading drag for lift doesnt gain you anything when your goal is to increase MPG in a car.

That is the conventional wisdom.

 

[moreluck]

drag ? Lift ??? Is this the Bruce Jenner thread?

 

[oldngray]

drag ? Lift ??? Is this the Bruce Jenner thread?

Maybe if they added the third axis to the equation of lift and drag - thrust.

 

[soberups]

That is the conventional wisdom.

Lift=redirected airflow

Redirected airflow=drag

Drag=comparative loss of efficiency at converting chemical energy into forward motion.

Its basic aerodynamics.

 

[bbsam]

Lift=redirected airflow

Redirected airflow=drag

Drag=comparative loss of efficiency at converting chemical energy into forward motion.

Its basic aerodynamics.

You have stated that the savings in effective rolling resistance cannot outweigh the increased drag. Do we know that? If we do, then I can only assume that an experimental like I have suggested has either been attempted or some mathematical description exists which says it can't be done. We are not so concerned with the easiest or most effective ways to achieve efficiency but rather other possibilities regardless the current difficulty or impracticality.