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Workers are enslaved, exploited and under attack
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<blockquote data-quote="22LR" data-source="post: 571719" data-attributes="member: 24005"><p>Maybe you should take another look at those books. Those things all happened in recent history.</p><p></p><p>Human beings (in their current form) have been around for 500,000 years.</p><p></p><p>The neolithic revolution (which brought agriculture, and subsequently private ownership, classes, wars. etc.) began about 12,000 years ago.</p><p></p><p>Do the math.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So what I'm saying isn't actually what I mean? And only you know the real meaning of what I'm saying?</p><p></p><p>Sure thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you believe in the right to the right to vote? The right to free speech?</p><p></p><p>So how about the right to live? Do you believe in that? Can you live without food, water, shelter and medicine?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Apples and oranges. None of those countries were "superpowers" prerevolution. They were all backward countries. Funnily enough though, after they had revolutions conditions (life expectancy, employment, education, caloric intake, etc.) in all of those countries improved (documented fact, I have hundreds of sources - hostile and friendly - if you're interested). In places where the systems born out of those revolutions were destroyed like the USSR conditions have worsened (another documented fact, again I have plenty of sources). What do you have to say about that?</p><p></p><p>"They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?" - Fidel Castro</p><p></p><p>And besides all that, I didn't mention any of those countries as an example. You did.</p><p></p><p>I'm talking about workers taking control of production and society. I'm talking about a truly democratic system in which the population as a whole rules, directly. I'm talking about a world of abundance, free from exploitation. I'm talking about utilizing the productive capacities of the world and humanity in their totalities to meet the needs of the human species.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Who built them? Donal Trump? Michael Bloomberg? Maybe Warren Buffet?</p><p></p><p>Nope, it was workers.</p><p></p><p>We build everything in existence everywhere.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ideas are products of humanity, not individuals. Bill Gates couldn't "come up" with a computer if someone else didn't "come up" with electricity, glass, plastic, wiring, processors, etc., etc., etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because they don't have capital. That's why they're workers, not capitalists.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They don't own the means of production.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They did nothing but:</p><p></p><p>Build the means of production and distribution. Do the producing and distributing. Build power plants and lay electric wires. Build roads. Build trucks. Etc., etc., etc.</p><p></p><p>You didn't invent or build your oven at home did you? Do you think the guy that invented the oven should be able to show up everytime you cook and take 75% of whatever you made?</p><p></p><p>Workers make the world go round. We know how to do our work and run our workplaces better than our bosses do.</p><p></p><p>Workers don't need bosses. Bosses need workers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is democracy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>False.</p><p></p><p>Corporations have immense computer programs that evaluate sales, "public sentament," etc., to try and figure out demand.</p><p></p><p>When we rule ourselves, we can use (and vastly expand) such technology to process and analyze all production and distribution. Instead of countless corporations competing with each other and hiding information and resources everything will be compiled together. We'll be able to know what people want and what they don't. And we can adjust production accordingly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See above.</p><p></p><p>That would be the case now, in a society of artificial scarcity and production for profit.</p><p></p><p>If we lived in a society where enough things existed to meet everyone's needs and desires there'd be no need to hoard anything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not sure what you're on about here. I was saying production should be organized to meet human need not to increase the bank accounts of capitalists.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again not sure what you're on about here. I said no one should starve in a world where there is enough food to feed everyone.</p><p></p><p>If anything you're simply helping me in the inditement of capitalism.</p><p></p><p>Thanks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, they can. There is more than enough land and resources to build houses for everyone on earth.</p><p></p><p>If you simply turned over the idle and vacant houses to homeless people you'd lessen the problem by a huge percentage.</p><p></p><p>People concentrate around cities because that's where the money is concentrated. It's uneven development and its inheirent to capitalism (ghettos/rich neighborhoods, cities/countryside, rich countries/poor countries).</p><p></p><p>When production is planned the world will be much more even. Development and resources will be spread out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How about a kid born to a homeless woman with a mental problem that lives in a car?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Definitely. Almost 1 out of 5 workers in the US is now unemployed or underemployed. How exciting!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="22LR, post: 571719, member: 24005"] Maybe you should take another look at those books. Those things all happened in recent history. Human beings (in their current form) have been around for 500,000 years. The neolithic revolution (which brought agriculture, and subsequently private ownership, classes, wars. etc.) began about 12,000 years ago. Do the math. So what I'm saying isn't actually what I mean? And only you know the real meaning of what I'm saying? Sure thing. Do you believe in the right to the right to vote? The right to free speech? So how about the right to live? Do you believe in that? Can you live without food, water, shelter and medicine? Apples and oranges. None of those countries were "superpowers" prerevolution. They were all backward countries. Funnily enough though, after they had revolutions conditions (life expectancy, employment, education, caloric intake, etc.) in all of those countries improved (documented fact, I have hundreds of sources - hostile and friendly - if you're interested). In places where the systems born out of those revolutions were destroyed like the USSR conditions have worsened (another documented fact, again I have plenty of sources). What do you have to say about that? "They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?" - Fidel Castro And besides all that, I didn't mention any of those countries as an example. You did. I'm talking about workers taking control of production and society. I'm talking about a truly democratic system in which the population as a whole rules, directly. I'm talking about a world of abundance, free from exploitation. I'm talking about utilizing the productive capacities of the world and humanity in their totalities to meet the needs of the human species. Who built them? Donal Trump? Michael Bloomberg? Maybe Warren Buffet? Nope, it was workers. We build everything in existence everywhere. Ideas are products of humanity, not individuals. Bill Gates couldn't "come up" with a computer if someone else didn't "come up" with electricity, glass, plastic, wiring, processors, etc., etc., etc. Because they don't have capital. That's why they're workers, not capitalists. They don't own the means of production. They did nothing but: Build the means of production and distribution. Do the producing and distributing. Build power plants and lay electric wires. Build roads. Build trucks. Etc., etc., etc. You didn't invent or build your oven at home did you? Do you think the guy that invented the oven should be able to show up everytime you cook and take 75% of whatever you made? Workers make the world go round. We know how to do our work and run our workplaces better than our bosses do. Workers don't need bosses. Bosses need workers. That is democracy. False. Corporations have immense computer programs that evaluate sales, "public sentament," etc., to try and figure out demand. When we rule ourselves, we can use (and vastly expand) such technology to process and analyze all production and distribution. Instead of countless corporations competing with each other and hiding information and resources everything will be compiled together. We'll be able to know what people want and what they don't. And we can adjust production accordingly. See above. That would be the case now, in a society of artificial scarcity and production for profit. If we lived in a society where enough things existed to meet everyone's needs and desires there'd be no need to hoard anything. Not sure what you're on about here. I was saying production should be organized to meet human need not to increase the bank accounts of capitalists. Again not sure what you're on about here. I said no one should starve in a world where there is enough food to feed everyone. If anything you're simply helping me in the inditement of capitalism. Thanks. Actually, they can. There is more than enough land and resources to build houses for everyone on earth. If you simply turned over the idle and vacant houses to homeless people you'd lessen the problem by a huge percentage. People concentrate around cities because that's where the money is concentrated. It's uneven development and its inheirent to capitalism (ghettos/rich neighborhoods, cities/countryside, rich countries/poor countries). When production is planned the world will be much more even. Development and resources will be spread out. How about a kid born to a homeless woman with a mental problem that lives in a car? Definitely. Almost 1 out of 5 workers in the US is now unemployed or underemployed. How exciting! [/QUOTE]
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