Full timers (previous part-timers) back to the HUB

ok..here it is....
the volume is down in the Toledo/Cleveland Ohio area. (Actually I should say the volume is on the trains that run from Chicago to the New England States.) We have 2 of them that run right past the Middleburg Hub in Cleveland. The CSX and Southern Norfolk rails. 4 Feeder runs have been eliminated in the past 2 weeks. One run was elimated 3 months ago after the driver retired.

3 TDP runs have been cancelled also. (I know that has nothing to do with the rail Tieguy!)

We have aprrox 35 feeder drivers laid off and about 22 of them are working in the Hub on both the Twilight Sort and the Night Sort. We are now entering a contractual "gray area" that we are trying to resolve regarding the seniority rights of laid off full timers compared to that of hub part-timers. The company has taken the position that as long as the full timer is displacing the 2 junior part-timers ( one on each sort) his/her seniority (even if he/she has had a previous part time seniority date) DOES NOT dovetail into the Hub's seniority list. Therefore the full timer remains at the Bottom of the totem pole. Even if a part timer has 1 day of seniority, they are saying that the full timer is still below him and has no seniority rights over that part timer.
"you displace the least junior employee, you BECOME the least junior employee", they say.
I must make a note that they are allowing us to exercise our seniority amongst ourselves (the groups of laid off full-timers)

I've read the Central Region Supplemental Agreement language regarding laid-off full timers displacing 2 part-timers and I see nothing that says the full-timer goes to the bottom of the seniority board. In fact it mentions "Total Company Seniority"
Our BA's at our local are filing for multiple interpretations as I write.
Is anyone else experiencing this practice in other parts of the Country??

I can't see how they use seniority to determine layoffs, but ignore it in the Hub.

Are you sure that they aren't just applying this (the least senior Hub employee language) so that you will be paid at the applicable rate for the job your are doing?

I know we have many drivers working in the Hubs, but I don't think we are hiring as many part-timers as we usually do. We need to get this economy up and running and get those packages flowing again!

I would think that fulltime senority would prevail and be superior over all PT employees. If the situation existed that a 10 year fulltimer was displaced from his/her normal work and there were only 2 PT employees, both with 30 years senoirity, the 10 year Ftimer would displace the 2 30 year Ptimers with no questions. From that standpoint I'd think FT seniority is always superior of a Ptimer no matter how many years they have.

This may not be a pleasant situation for the Pt'er but if the circumstances came about this could happen. I also agree about getting the economy going but everyone of us should do everything we can to maintain the customers we have and build on it. JMO.

"are you sure that they aren't just applying this (the least senior Hub employee language) so that you will be paid at the applicable rate for the job your are doing? "

Proups- I'm not quite understanding what you wrote. They are paying the laid off fulltimers in the Hub a set rate that is below their normal driving rate but still above the starting rate for new part timers. There are only two rates in the HUB for new part timers. $8.50 for the load/unload and $9.50 for the sort. I think the set rate was hammered out between the local and the company (or it could be contractual-not sure yet) and the down side to that is the company wants the fulltimer to stay at the bottom of the seniority board so they (the company) won't have to pay the full-timer any over time. So when the full timer gets his/her minimum guarantee of 3.5 hours for each sort, they send him home.

Many of us TDP drivers have turned in more than 1 lead for new biz, but it's up to the company to give them the discount they want. Most of the FedEX trucks I see on the road are FedEx Freight..even though we don't ship LTL freight, it is still free advertising that FedEx is getting out the road. I know UPS is not planning on getting into the LTL sector anytime soon, but I wonder if we should start something that competes directly with FedEx Custom Critical which is based out here in Akron. Of course non-union SonicAir is probably "part" pf their answer to this. What we need "SonicGround" (union jobs of course ! heh )
All in all..I think they need to restucture that branch and make it more affordable since they don't have to pay those high union wages. Or maybe its not worth it.
JMHO

In my Hub, if a feeder run is cut, drivers' affected, must work the hub, which means 8 hours of quaranteed time, only if you're fulltimer. Now the pay is equal to the same pay as any inside fulltimer is receiving...I would never complain if i had to do the hub, if my run is cut, but it has never happened to me, yet.. But other drivers who were hired from the street to feeders always seem to have a problem working the hub and complaining about the inside fulltimer wage... I personally, was a part-timer for 8yrs(loaded & unloaded).. Working the hub would come 2nd nature to me, the ones on this thread who complain about senority, in my opinion, just want to come inside and flex their fulltime senority powers so they can get an easy easy inside job!!

THe way our contract reads, the company can lay off the lowest 2 senior drivers and then the rest can bump the least 2 senior part timers on the shift the bump back to. THe company has the option to allow them to bump back to the sorts, but does not have to. Problem is there are allready so many drivers that have bid on the inside full time jobs. It seems they want the lower and less hours.

d

And I thought our language was confusing !!

feederdryfer: What do you mean by trying to have more senority over part timers in the bldg. Is your agrument about trying to get an easier job in the building. I was a part-timer for 8yrs - fulltime for 8yrs, I just dont care what i'm doing inside, as long as I'm getting paid like any inside full-timer(Except!!!! article 22 jobs(red circle jobs), those fulltimers make $20 to $22 a hour)>>getting back to other fulltimers who work inside, they make approx. $17 to $18 a hour...Also, you said about previous partimers, like myself should be able to use their previous part time years as senority....>>>WRONG<<<<. When you turn full-time, you are full time!!! the only way you can use your part time years is for accrue vacations, you cannot use them for Senority rights, THATS IT!!!

Feeder-

Ok....so let's just say (for argument's sake) our top guy in Feeders who has 37 years with the company gets "laid off" due to loss of volume. He decides to go in the Hub and displace 2 of the least senior part timers just to keep his benefits rolling. Your telling me that if he's working in an unload area with 9 other people who are part time (let's say they have only been with the company for 31 days..all of them), once he gets his guarantee 3.5 hours, (no overtime) the company has the right to release him from their manning "first" even though there is at least another 1.5 hours of work available that those 9 people will get ?? I don't think so.

And no..this argument is NOT about getting an "easier" job it's about WHO gets the 'extra work" Why should I work only 35 hours a week when 40 hours was available? And on a different note..what would you do if the regular "inside full timer" with less seniority than you is allowed to work 45 hours a week and they send you home with only 35? But I guess as long as your making the same wage he's making, it won't bother you..is that it? Well maybe you can live off that but alot of us can't. If anyone is going to make the extra cash than it should be available to the person with the most "Total" Company seniority (like the contract reads)
Extra work = extra time = more $$


Have a good day

Let me repost. Under our contract, the least senior two drivers to be laid off are not guarenteed to bump back to the sorts. They can be laid off. Or the company can allow them to bump the least two senior PT on the shifts that they go to. Starting with the third least senior driver all other drivers laid off are guarenteed to be able to bump back to the sorts.

If enough drivers get laid off, in theory, a full time employee with 4 years full time can bump a 35 year part time. But as a practical matter, all new drivers have been part timers for at least 5 years before driving, and PT's with more time just didnt want to go full time, or had personal problems that would not allow them to go FT(DWI, Speeding, etc.)

The last driver hired off the street here was in 1985. And over half of the drivers here have been driving 5 years or less.

d

Danny--

1985??? !!! Holy crap..what center/hub are you out of?? Doesn't your management people exercise their right to hire off the street on the 4:1 ratio that the contract allows them to?? Jeez..here they must of hired at least 15 people off the street for Feeders within the last 4 years! I don't know who they hired off the street recently for Packages.

Some of out veteran part timers chose not to go full time because they own their own buisness too.

I don't care where any of us are from...it should be that if a full timer elects to go back in the Hub amongst part timers... total "COMPANY" seniority should prevail for things such as over-time/extra work, etc.

"Company" seniority is defined as the first day you were hired either as a part-timer or
fulltimer.

Ya know, I really don't understand why anyone doesn't understand this issue. There really must be alot of diversity amongst our union locals and work hubs/centers to have so many different ways of interpreting things.
Middleburg management is probably getting away with so much crap and we're (hourlys) here with our blinders on.

Please keep the responses going..I want to find out just how out of whack all the regions are with each other. No wonder the negotiating committees leave so many loop holes in the contract and supplements, it keeps them busy sorting through the mess while causing chaos for the hourlys.

Our supplement says a ratio of hire: 6 for 1>>>1 from the street. my opinion: it should be 6 for 0 (zerrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooo)!!
Also, 40hrs is quaranteed for all full timers, but, overtime and easy preferential jobs are always handled politically(kiss some mgrs or sups butt, you might get your overtime)

edited for perfection:

(Message edited by feeder on March 05, 2003)

Our contract says 6 to one also. So it is six inside part timers, to one inside partime sup. And of course all part time sups started as part time hourly. So that is why we have not had any body hired off the street since actually 1983.

As to senioriy, there is company seniority, full time, part time, and job related seniority.

Company seniority is the total time you have worked for UPS. It is important mostly for the number of weeks vacation you get.

Full and part time are self explanitory. But full time rules. Any full time employee (with the exception of the lowest 2 in seniority) can, after being laid off, bump the least senior part timers. And as said before, in theory a 1 year full time with 5 years part time could bump a part timer with 15 years of company seniority.

Job seniority is what you have in certain job classification. Feeders, delivery, each sort, and jobs within that sort all are job seniority.

To add to the confusion, we have two delivery centers in our building. And each has its own seniority list. And that is why things stay as clear as mud

d

<font color="0000ff">I don't think a full-time driver should be able to bump an inside part-timer with more company seniority nor do I think UPS should be allowed to hire "off the street". Both situations seem wrong and I still can't believe the union allows it to be this way. </font>

The contract states that a laid off full time driver can bump inside only if he has seniority over the part time employee. The "off the street" hire is in the contract for two reasons, a lot of centers couldn't get feeder drivers ( no full time drivers or part timers will bid on feeders) and this is the only way a part time sup. can become a driver.

Another reason to hire off the street is so the company can get people with degrees that will learn the job and then go into management.

That is what I have seen.

<font color="0000ff">I don't know what the big deal about degrees at UPS is. A degree is not even required for a management job. Also...no proof has ever been produced stating degree holders in management perform their jobs any better than anyone without a degree. Yes there are certain specific jobs that require certain skills that might require some schooling or more training than most but most of them aren't even really considered management jobs if any at all (finance, plant engineering, etc. for examples) but in general most management jobs out there in UPS can be done by anyone that is willing and has the desire and especially experience in other parts of UPS. When UPS is hiring for a management position I think I'd rather have someone with no degree but with allot of inside experience along with plenty of driving experience over a person with a degree that has been hired off the street just because they have that degree and are going to be trained into management with the assumption that they'll do a better job than someone without a degree. </font>

Local 480,

I notice that in most of your posts you always start with, "I don't know" or "I am not sure" or "I have never", or "I don't think".

480: you are entitled to your opinion, but in this case it is not reality.

If you don't have a degree, test your theory out on other companies. Go apply. See what they tell you when you tell them you don't have a degree.

In the past at UPS, degrees were not required to become a management person. From your other posts, I know you worked at Whites Creek Hub and now at the Clarksville center. If you are talking about UPS not requiring degrees for part-time supervisors you might be right. I do know that UPS encourages it's PT Sups to complete their education by offering them education assistance.

If UPS has two FT Management candidates with equal experience, but one of them does not have a degree, then guess who gets the promotion? The person with the degree. To take that a step further, if UPS has two management candidates, and one of them has less job experience with a degree, and the other has many years of job experience without a degree, the outcome would be the same. The person with a degree would get promoted.

I am a person that utililzed the UPS education assistance program and got my degree. While in school, I took classes that gave me a different perspective on how other businesses operate. UPS is quite different than other organizations with it's corporate structure.

You are right that UPS would like to have people that know the job in management positions, but the fact that the person got that degree shows UPS that they are willing to go the extra step to improve themselves. That usually translates into a person that will go the extra mile in any assignment they are given.

Just some thoughts from a long-time employee.

<font color="0000ff">I know of several full-time sups that don' have degrees and I know there are many others around the country.

</font><font color="ff0000">Local 480,

I notice that in most of your posts you always start with, "I don't know" or "I am not sure" or "I have never", or "I don't think". "

</font><font color="0000ff">That's nice. And your point is??? You know some people have questions to ask and statements to make and want to make it perfectly clear that they aren't confusing their opinions with facts.
</font>

480
IF you were going to hire someone for a job and had two people that seemed good for the position. One was an employee that has worked for you for many years. Knows and has done it all. Hell, you cant even tell him anything, he knows it all. The other is fresh from getting his education. Has a lot of knowledge and willing to learn how to put it into practice in a practical job. You will have to mold him into what you want him to be, but he is a quick learner. And he doesnt have the I know how to do it better attitude to over come.

Now let me see, which one would I hire.........
I give up, the guy with no work experience, but a good education!

d

<font color="0000ff">That scenario you speak of isn't always the case. You make it sound like that everyone with experience at UPS is like that (can't tell them anything) but I totally agree that there are plenty of them out there. You also have to consider that not everyone can, or will have the opportunity, to get an education and shouldn't be left out because of that. I think individual merrit can be proven in many other ways other than being able to complete a degree. Actually, in my opinion, ANYONE can make it through college if they really want to and if they have the opportunity. But then again...ANYONE can make it in a management job at UPS if they really want to and that is my point. My other point is that experience shouldn't be discarded when a person with a degree is involved. If that were the case in all promotion situations then we'd have allot of "smart" but non-experienced people running this company. If a promotion were between two people with the exact experiences but one had a degree I am pretty sure I'd probably pick the one with the degree but ONLY after I exhaust other ways of trying to figure out who is more qualified. </font>

I thought we did have a bunch of smart but inexperienced management

You made the statement that "not every one can or will have the oppertunity" to futher their education. Then you state that you think that "anyone" can make it to college if they have the desire and oppertunity. HEll you sound like my wife, make up your mind!

I believe that IF you want something bad enough, you will grab the oppertunity and MAKE it happen. If you are waiting for someone to hand you the better things in life, it just aint gonna happen. I had a delivery sup that took nite classes, and when they uped his shift to latter in the night, his wife took the classes for him. Was it easy, no, was it worth it, probably.

People have all sorts of excuses for failure. Failure happens all by itself. Success is made, and it is not easy. If it was, then every body would be successful. And a continuing education is not a guarantee, but it will never keep you back as much as the lack of it.

Just my not so humble ramblings

d

<font color="ff0000">"You made the statement that "not every one can or will have the oppertunity" to futher their education. Then you state that you think that "anyone" can make it to college if they have the desire and oppertunity. HEll you sound like my wife, make up your mind!"

</font><font color="0000ff">I stand by those comments but maybe I should clarify what I meant. I think ANYONE is capable of getting a degree but not everyone will be able to. Yes some will use whatever excuses they can think of and not try but there are allot of people that actually won't be able to for many reasons. Oh and you were so right about your first comment...</font><font color="ff0000"> "I thought we did have a bunch of smart but inexperienced management"</font><font color="0000ff"> but I must also ad to that, that there are also a bunch of dumb but very experienced management at UPS. </font><font color="0000ff">Also some dumb and unexperienced and smart and experienced.
</font>

Given a choice, I would much rather work for a manager who has a UPS degree. They don't teach that in school. Last thing we need is another numbers person.