Afghanistan war - Page 3 - Brown Cafe

av8torntn · 10-08-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Side

So AV8, make sure you read this sentence clearly: THERE IS NO WINNING IN AFGHANISTAN.

Make sure you read this sentence carefully. I do not care if you think we can win in Afghanistan or not as I never asked you if you thought we could win or not.

You cannot even define what it would take to win so of course you do not think a win is possible.

Obama on the other hand said he had a plan during his campaign for Afghanistan. Here we are ten months into his presidency and he has time for golf, date night, and to jet set around the world to glad hand Olympic officials but yet not time to implement his plan. This fool is a poor leader. This moron is out living it up on the town while our military members die on the battlefield awaiting his "plan". This idiot is a bad joke. This fool is probably trying himself to look up what it means to win.

fact check · 10-08-2009, 12:25 PM

ad hominem attacks against the President of the United States reveal more about the attackers than the man they are attacking.

moreluck · 10-08-2009, 01:28 PM

yes, we represent all the sensible people

The Other Side · 10-08-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Make sure you read this sentence carefully. I do not care if you think we can win in Afghanistan or not as I never asked you if you thought we could win or not.

You cannot even define what it would take to win so of course you do not think a win is possible.

Obama on the other hand said he had a plan during his campaign for Afghanistan. Here we are ten months into his presidency and he has time for golf, date night, and to jet set around the world to glad hand Olympic officials but yet not time to implement his plan. This fool is a poor leader. This moron is out living it up on the town while our military members die on the battlefield awaiting his "plan". This idiot is a bad joke. This fool is probably trying himself to look up what it means to win.

AV8,

Like ive said to you before, I will never call you the smartest guy in the room, but you continue to sound like the biggest hypocrite in the room.

When Bush attacked Afghanistan, he went on vacation after vacation while troops were getting killed, then when he invaded Iraq, he went on more vacations than any other president in history while our troops were getting killed 140 a month.

Then, you defended his actions while the country was outraged at his casual approach to managing a war. Not until his popularity dipped to 30% did he get off his rear and change strategies... Over 2000 troops died in Iraq before Bush stopped taking vacations and changed directions.

Not once did you pipe off about BUSH sitting on his rear while soldiers died, but you will for OBAMA? Get serious.

You sir, are a hypocrite.

But then again, your a military grunt and thats the last person anyone should ask about war strategy.

You just do what your told, and say what your told.

Thats why civilians govern the military.

Say what you want, I personally dont hold anything you say with any weight.

klein · 10-08-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wkmac

WOW! I never knew that one day the UN and NATO on a whim decided, "let's go F' UP Afghanistan and the Taliban just for fun. I'm bored so it'll be something to do!"

Good thing we have such smart people here so I don't get off the wrong track!

Face it former Yugoslavia was easier to win, and is now actually a safer place to live then America.

But, don't forget our troops, we do help you out :

Mon Oct 5, 12:09 PM

By Bill Graveland, The Canadian Press

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Getting from Kandahar Airfield to any of the forward operating bases in this troubled province has always been hazardous for the Canadian military.

Road convoys loaded with fresh troops and supplies were the lifeblood of the remote outposts - and a constant and easy target for the Taliban, who would attack with suicide bombers, small-arms fire and improvised explosive devices.

And then came the Chinooks.

On a recent day, a Chinook flanked by two CH-146 Griffon escort helicopters made about 15 stops, each for just a few minutes. It transported close to 200 Canadian and American soldiers to locations in the dangerous Panjwaii, Zhari and Arghandab districts, as well as one load of water.

We got five or six Chinooks that take off in all directions and they can land in the bad guys' backyard in a matter of minutes, and it catches them off guard. That effect is pretty amazing," he added.

At each stop for the Chinook, the coalition soldiers crammed in tightly, their dufflebags and backpacks stacked almost to the ceiling. Each time one of the gunners writes the name of the destination on a white board and holds it up, letting the passengers know whether it's time to get off.

"The numbers over a six-month period is by the thousands," said Lt.-Col. Marc Bigaouette, the commanding officer.

"I think we're coming close to 10,000 soldiers being moved. And it's not only the people that we move - it's the fact that we bring equipment, we bring supplies, food, all that stuff to them which they would have to get by road otherwise."

av8torntn · 10-08-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Side

Not once did you pipe off about BUSH sitting on his rear while soldiers died, but you will for OBAMA? Get serious.

You sir, are a hypocrite.

.

Why should I? He had a plan that worked. He led no matter how people like you felt. You cannot even put into words what it means to win yet you attacked the President multiple times. You could not even answer a simple question on here even though I tried to help you by giving multiple definitions to choose from. It is no wonder you support Obama. I guess he is waiting on the polls to tell him what to do.

Obama put his plan into place when he was elected. Obama was asked for more resources. Obama is out golfing and doing his date night thing while our troops die. He is a poor leader. He has had months to act on Afghanistan. He chose to go glad hand Olympic officials. You need to get over yourself Bush is no longer the President.

av8torntn · 10-08-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fact check

ad hominem attacks against the President of the United States reveal more about the attackers than the man they are attacking.

Relax sweetie those are the exact things that were said on here about President Bush.

fact check · 10-09-2009, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Relax sweetie those are the exact things that were said on here about President Bush.

1) Prove it

2) Are you gay? Why are you calling me 'sweetie'? Save the pillow talk for Tieguy.

wkmac · 10-09-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klein

Face it former Yugoslavia was easier to win, and is now actually a safer place to live then America.

Well sure it is. Once the US and western alliance had control of the region, they shifted their partners to other fronts as the real reason for the whole thing in the first place was then set in stone. Stand in that region, look due east and what do you see?

It's all about securing resources and more resources but ask yourself this for a moment. Why have all our major wars since the late 19th century been in major regions that either have, do control or trying to control one main resouce? And since our monetary system and its principle unit of exchange has since 1971' been backed by a

Petrodollar

which is at the heart of these conflicts. Then ask also, what would happen economically if we lost total control and access to any of these region's resources? What would happen with our own domestic industry and commerce? What would happen if say Russia or China got total control? Who stands to lose the most if such a thing were to happen? As the old saying goes, follow the money!

Consider that both Iraq and Iran were all but ignored until they did the unthinkable and challenge the monetary system of the empire. Problem was, we could not be told the truth so the Straussian "Noble Lie" was told so where is all that WMD? If Iraq didn't have sqwat, why should I believe the same people when it comes to Iran?

And what about Al Qaeda? You know, that outfit Bush said he was gonna get and now our current sitting President proclaims he'll get them. Another "Noble Lie"?

You tell me?

From part of the 3 part BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares

YouTube - BBC: al Qaeda Does Not Exist

Did Winston ask the right question?

YouTube - Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist (Documentary) - 1

Fake Al Qaeda agents?

YouTube - Fake Al Qaeda Actors EXPOSED! Adam Gadahn & Yousef al-Khattab

Hmmmm!

Well Bush early on dumped the "Get Bin Laben or Else" construct overboard and even before Obama took office, he too took up the party line. But like all things political, when your plan is stumbling and just not working out, the polls are suffering and the people are questioning, it's always a good thing to have some old tricks in the bag that you can drag out to shift the focus elsewhere. A political Bait and Switch?

I see today that Obama took home the Peace Prize and I guess Orwell is smiling again about being proven correct.

War is Peace!

I know much of what I said above will enflame the poles of the 2 party INGSOC so as is my duty, I give you your 2 minute hate!

Rant Away!

wkmac · 10-09-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Side

AV8,

Thats why civilians govern the military.

Ah, Master of Puppets!

Ever notice how drugs and gov't are so much alike? Both are doing their best to create an altered reality.

Tell Em' Boys!

YouTube - Metallica - Master of Puppets (Live Atlanta, GA)

BTW that pic was changed on Jan 20th when they retired the old worn out and beyond their usefulness former puppets.

Some of the first puppet masters!

The enablers of the puppet masters!

klein · 10-09-2009, 09:19 AM

wkmac, nice anarchist symbol !
Do you really wanna go there ?
Here is an example :

Living in Somalia's anarchy

As Somalia's new government prepares to return to restore order after years of anarchy, the BBC News website's Joseph Winter reports from Mogadishu on life with no central control. Somalia is the only country in the world where there is no government.

Read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4017147.stm

And Al Quaida does exist.
We captured 5 or 6 of them up here, that wanted to blow up Toronto CN Tower, and other major bulidings in that city.

Don't think it's just a worldwide conspiracy!

wkmac · 10-09-2009, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klein

wkmac, nice anarchist symbol !
Do you really wanna go there ?
Here is an example :

Living in Somalia's anarchy

As Somalia's new government prepares to return to restore order after years of anarchy, the BBC News website's Joseph Winter reports from Mogadishu on life with no central control. Somalia is the only country in the world where there is no government.

Read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4017147.stm

And Al Quaida does exist.
We captured 5 or 6 of them up here, that wanted to blow up Toronto CN Tower, and other major bulidings in that city.

Don't think it's just a worldwide conspiracy!

Already addressed Somalia as you raised that US Hegemony created scenario before and I addressed it. (Somalia ain't Anarchy) Go find my response and read it again as my position hasn't changed.

I guess some people just need mythology to get through the day.

Also consider this point Klein, who/what has killed more people around the world, societies or cultures with no rulers or societies and cultures with organized States and governments?

Even using Somalia, who has killed and murdered more n the name of, Somalia or the freedom, democracy advancing United States and it's willing allies including your "peace loving" nation?

If you people would apply the same logic you use to advocate the restriction of guns, especially automatic weapons or so-called assault rifles in the name of saving lives to gov't, you'd advocate anarchy too! Or at the very least, less of it.

klein · 10-09-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wkmac

Already addressed Somalia as you raised that US Hegemony created scenario before and I addressed it. (Somalia ain't Anarchy) Go find my response and read it again as my position hasn't changed.

I guess some people just need mythology to get through the day.

Also consider this point Klein, who/what has killed more people around the world, societies or cultures with no rulers or societies and cultures with organized States and governments?

Even using Somalia, who has killed and murdered more n the name of, Somalia or the freedom, democracy advancing United States and it's willing allies including your "peace loving" nation?

If you people would apply the same logic you use to advocate the restriction of guns, especially automatic weapons or so-called assault rifles in the name of saving lives to gov't, you'd advocate anarchy too! Or at the very least, less of it.

Well, it's considered an Anarchy worldwide, just not in your mind.
Has no government.

And we are still the peacekeepers nation of the world. Here's a pic of the backside of our $10 bill :

Dedicated for our peace missions and veterans.

Even Afghanistan is basically considered bringing peace to them.
Others here argue, it will take away our worldwide reputation for being the friendly nation and for it's peace keeping.
But we did join because of the request of the Nato or/and UN.

For that fact, it's another major reason we are liked across the world. And trust me, when we personally travel overseas, we sure notice it.

We have a bigger government then America actually, I believe.
20 % of the population are employed by the Canadian Government.

From post office, to nurses, teachers, military, etc.

Just for the hell of it :
$5.00 bill dedicated to our national sport:

av8torntn · 10-09-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fact check

1) Prove it

.

Sweetheart I do not know if your are stupid or if you are just playing the part.

This is one of many. Read post number 17 in this thread. Check your facts. It was so bad on here at one point that even Jones of all people defended President Bush against people calling him stupid.

http://www.browncafe.com/forum/curre...shoe_lmao.html

fact check · 10-09-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Sweetheart I do not know if your are stupid or if you are just playing the part.

This is one of many. Read post number 17 in this thread. Check your facts. It was so bad on here at one point that even Jones of all people defended President Bush against people calling him stupid.

http://www.browncafe.com/forum/curre...shoe_lmao.html

Did you mean your or you're?

Calling me sweetheart would be gay, and I don't go that way.

Like I said, go with Tie or Brent, they may be more 'up your alley'.

fact check · 10-09-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Sweetheart I do not know if your are stupid or if you are just playing the part.

This is one of many. Read post number 17 in this thread. Check your facts. It was so bad on here at one point that even Jones of all people defended President Bush against people calling him stupid.

http://www.browncafe.com/forum/curre...shoe_lmao.html

Post #17 is Klein rambling aboot (purposeful misspelling) something, and he never mentioned stupid.

FAIL

av8torntn · 10-10-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fact check

Post #17 is Klein rambling aboot (purposeful misspelling) something, and he never mentioned stupid.

FAIL

Sweetheart if you clicked on that link and scrolled down to number post number 17 you would notice that it was made before klein even joined the forum.

Are you sure your mommy and daddy allow you to play on the computer this late?

Here it is once again.

http://www.browncafe.com/forum/curre...shoe_lmao.html

and another

http://www.browncafe.com/forum/curre...september.html

and

http://www.browncafe.com/forum/curre...n_believe.html

Sweetheart that was without much effort as there are plenty more.

Just remember Obama is an idiot. Only three more years with this fool. Good luck and your facts fall short once again.

diesel96 · 10-10-2009, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

This fool is a poor leader.
This moron is out living it up on the town
This idiot is a bad joke.
This fool is probably trying himself to look up what it means to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Just remember Obama is an idiot. Only three more years with this fool. Good luck and your facts fall short once again.

Is your namecalling fit

some sort of rebuke in defense of the Bush Adm ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Obama put his plan into place when he was elected. Obama was asked for more resources. Obama is out golfing and doing his date night thing while our troops die. He is a poor leader. He has had months to act on Afghanistan. He chose to go glad hand Olympic officials. You need to get over yourself Bush is no longer the President.

Apparently,You and Gen McChrystal didn't get the memo. The CIC expects and demands respect, and protocol, to weigh all evidense and suggestions from ALL parties involved that has properly gone thru the chain of command.(Not thru press conferences) The Commanders on the ground,the Defense Sec, Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Nat'l Sec Advisers, etc...Then the CIC will decide from a range of options of new or updated strategies. This is supposed to alleviate the knee-jerk mentality your championing and form clear-cut planned out strategies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Sweetheart that was without much effort as there are plenty more.....

All right, The "Sweetheart" routine is getting creepy...what's with you righties, any time somebody grinds your gears you accuse them of being Suzi....She must of schooled you guys and left scars...lol[/QUOTE]

leechilds705 · 10-10-2009, 07:06 AM

Hey, you guys are aware that this war was stage like the rest.

fact check · 10-10-2009, 07:07 AM

Mr. Av8tontn,

you expect me to read through an entire thread to find where TOS said Bush was the dumbest president ever, after he's been voted out? Don't you know how to link to a specific post?

Once again, ad hominem attacks against the sitting President of the United States is uncalled for. If you disagree with his policies, point out where the disagreement lies, treat the office with the respect it deserves.

You are beginning to look like a petulant child.

moreluck · 10-10-2009, 07:20 AM

lee =

The Other Side · 10-10-2009, 10:21 AM

The main problem with AV8 and those "like" him on this board, is that they are captivated by Rhetoric.

One of the keys to the republican party's existence is the non stop repetitious rhetoric they spread on cable news and am radio.

FAUX news is now an official ARM of the republican party. With its lineup of bashers (BECK, ORIELLY, HANNITY, INGRAHAM, HUCKABEE, CHRIS WALLACE) they can provide hours of repetitious nonsense over and over.

Each one in concert with the other, each one using the same "terms" and speaking points.

With Beck, hours of polling to gauge his style proved to be good for FAUX.

His style of extreme exageration is nauseating to the informed person, but to those inclined to follow the party rhetoric, he is a master.

His use of props and chalkboards drawing lines from one thing to another convinces his followers that he knows what he's talking about. In fact, he doesnt. Its the style that his followers are connecting with. The facial movements, his constant hand shaking and his passionate tone in his voice are his "magnets" to his ill-informed audiences.

He surrounds himself with the constitution, the flag, the founding fathers and the constant mention of the "republic". This attracts the dumbest audience.

His audience goes on to repeat everything he sez like its gospel.

The main problem I have with right wingers is that they forget why they were thrown out of office in 2006 and 2008.

Guys like TIEGUY consistently claim that the country went south after 2006 when the dems took control of congress.. Two problems with his claim, yet he consistently makes the same comment over and over...

First, the dems took control of congress (both houses) in January 2007 and NOT 2006 like he claims. This is the exact type of exageration the republican party wants it members to repeat. THe Dems were elected to office in NOV of 06 but they couldnt hold office until the next start of congress in 07.

Second, if the country was heading in the right direction under the leadership of BUSH and the republican controlled congress, WHY THEN were they systematically removed from power? TIEGUY sez the country was doing well under BUSH and it wasnt until the DEMS took office that the country crashed. In reality, the American public was already seeing the disaster coming. Unemployment was rising faster than ever in history, businesses were closing faster than ever, corporations were leaving our shores for foreign lands faster than in anytime in history, pensions for 100's of companies were going into the PBGC by the hundreds for the first time in history, the dollar was at an ALL TIME LOW and in threat of being replaced by the EURO as world currency.

These were the realities of BUSH along with 2 failing wars and numerious deaths of our troops and 1 trillion dollars spent with no way to pay for it.

Indeed BUSH is gone, Thank GOD, but his legacy is being felt by us all today.

BUSH failed us in both wars and today, there is no clear answer to solving the question of how we end them.

One way or the other, our troops must get out of both countries and we have to find a way to pay for both wars.

Republicans want you to forget how we got into this mess, but they also want you to believe they can fix it, if they get back in power.

Dont count on it.

This President has his hands full, this he knew before he took office, so did the majority of Americans who voted for him. He was upfront during his campaign, he told the american people that the road would be hard, that it was going to get alot worse before it got better, but together, it would get to a point where the american public would be better off.

It did get alot worse like his said, but its turning around.

Today, FAUX news and the am radio nuts are talking about the US dollar.

They are trying to scare the american public with the thought of our money becoming worthless.

One problem? It was WORSE under BUSH when the dollar was at its lowest point in history. Gold also tripled under BUSH in 8 years as well as OIL getting to an unGodly price.

Gold has gone from around $935 an ounce this year to $1060, and nothing like $200 to $1000 like BUSH.

Those that talk about victory in Afghanistan know nothing about the war at all. The complexities involved are staggering. The realities of that war prevent a "victory" in the context of winning.

There is nothing to win. Without wiping out the totality of terrorists in neighboring countries, there can be no WIN.

Until then, the republicans will kick around Afghanistan like a political football.

They dont care how many troops die, or the cost it will add to the federal deficit. They just want to sound like tough guys, but so did Adolph Hitler.

AV8, I find your arguments weak and cowardly.

Just another "parrot" for FAUX news just like many others on this board.

Hard to believe the american public

island1fox · 10-10-2009, 10:26 AM

I am fairly sure this will piss off both sides of this issue. While I have been accused of leaning too far right on Brown Cafe --I do not support sending more nor keeping our troops if Afghanistan. I cannot believe I am supporting Joe Biden , but I am sure it is for different reasons.
I believed we had no choice in a post sept 11th world but to go into Iraq and make sure there were no wmd's. Rumsfeld did his job --when we very early on discovered the weapons were not there with very little loss of American lives or treasure --we should have left and turned the ugly situation over to the corrupt Kofi Annan ,his son and the greedy Europeans who took part in the corrupt oil scheme with Saddam --yes I am talking about security council members Russia and France
War is ugly but when it is totally necessary it should be fought the same way we ended WW2.
All of our troops from every other nation should be withdrawn. If the U.S finds itself facing a truly serious threat from another nation ---do as they would do if they had the same weapons ---use them .
I am not for war no against fighting it to win.
Sounds radical and cruel but I truly feel that after one or two conflicts -the world would be as peaceful as possible.
Bring our young people home --all of them --control our borders and continue to develop the missle defense system to only protect ourselves --let the rest of the world lead themselves to hell !!

av8torntn · 10-10-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diesel96

Is your namecalling fit

some sort of rebuke in defense of the Bush Adm ?

What is your obsession with Bush? Did you get the memo that he is no longer the president? OK one thing that I learned in the military was that when you encounter people from another environment you observe their customs and try to use their language. Everything you just quoted me on was a copy and paste from posts made by the other side with just a minor substitution of obama for Bush. Your double standards are very entertaining. I am not on this thread to defend anyone. I do however find your disdain for the lack of respect for Obama very interesting after the things that have been said on these message boards about Bush, since you brought that up.

Apparently,You and Gen McChrystal didn't get the memo. The CIC expects and demands respect, and protocol, to weigh all evidense and suggestions from ALL parties involved that has properly gone thru the chain of command.(Not thru press conferences) The Commanders on the ground,the Defense Sec, Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Nat'l Sec Advisers, etc...Then the CIC will decide from a range of options of new or updated strategies. This is supposed to alleviate the knee-jerk mentality your championing and form clear-cut planned out strategies.

The problem with your defense of Obama here is that he met with his advisers months ago. He picked his Generals. He implemented his strategy. The white house(that's not a racist thing) leaked a report they received weeks ago saying more troops were needed for this strategy to work. This strategy was also the one Obama championed during his campaign. You have also cited and championed officers who did not agree with the Bush strategy but true to your double standard form you now attack McChrystal.

All right, The "Sweetheart" routine is getting creepy...what's with you righties, any time somebody grinds your gears you accuse them of being Suzi....She must of schooled you guys and left scars...lol

I do not think that I was around when the Suzi was here. The sweetheart routine is because he has the mind of a child. I got a lecture on this thread about attacking the person instead of the message and found it interesting that it only took one post from me to bring him down to "my" level. It was so easy to manipulate him that it took some of the fun out of it.

[/QUOTE]

Obama is a poor leader. He made a strategy decision months ago on leadership and overall tactics in this war. He failed to properly resource this strategy. His poll numbers fell on his ability to handle this problem so now he has to "rethink" his strategy. Leadership by polls is not leadership. When you want to be a leader you must have the ability to make tough decisions. This inability to lead is costing the lives of our fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, and children. This makes Obama a spinless piece of crap and that is an honest opinion of the man from me. You, just by claiming that Obama demands respect, cannot make me respect him as I could never force you to respect Bush and I did not try. That is something he must earn not by giving a speech but by his actions. If he believed in his strategy then he should be in front of Congress asking for more troops. If he needed time to refine his position then he should not have been out playing golf. If he needed time to meet with his advisors he should have met with them instead of globetrotting to glad hand Olympic officials. If he does not think we should be there he should pull the troops out. This indecision is costing lives and money. See how easy it is to attack the person in power. I mainly watched you guys do the exact same thing with Bush and now I get all the crying from the peanut gallery when your guy is in power.

BTW Jones (I think) made a great post in another thread which I agree with on weather or not the president is an idiot.

av8torntn · 10-10-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fact check

Mr. Av8tontn,

you expect me to read through an entire thread

Sweetheart, I actually expect you to stay uninformed and wrong. If you changed that would take the fun out of the whole thing.

Fact check, now that makes me chuckle every time I see that.