The information campaign

[Ricochet1a]

How can I debate based upon an "intellectual" argument you've put forth, when you state no examples and give no figures? You backstop everything with a generalized "it depends" and never give a single example to back up your erroneous statements. This leaves the old ad hominem response to a shill.

I've got plenty of facts to back up my story. Let's talk facts. Take an employee that had 10 years when the pension was pulled that is now 36 years old. Use all of the assumptions of the model I presented days ago (I'll let you look that up).

What are the differences in pension pay out for this employee (take a 25 year career, retiring in 2023, drawing in 2033)?

That employee would've made about $45,500 in 2008, for a pension payout of just overr $9,000 a year in 2033 ($4300 in 2009 inflation controlled dollars) with the DBPP formula for the 10 years of service under the DBPP.

This employee will top out in 2018 at 30.24 an hour and will retire at $35.05/hr ($22.47 in 2009 dollars).

The FedEx "contributions" in that employee's PPP will amount to just under $49,000 though 2023, with an amount of $95,273 sitting in the account in 2033 at age 60 as a result of principle and FedEx interest payments of 4% annual. This is equal to $45,585 in 2009 dollars. So much for your supposed large sum of cash.

Lots of grist to grind...

Lets compare the traditional plan to the shafting under the PPP....

Under the traditional plan this employee would've had an average high of $77,500 when he/she retired in 2023. This would've provided a annual pension of $38,750 in 2033 ($18,540 in 2009 dollars). Not bad, but definately not alot.

Now the PPP. The employee gets to keep the $9,000 a year that was provided when the plans were switched. Let's see.. $38,750 minus $9,000 leaves a shortfall of...let's just call it $30,000/yr to keep it simple (all 2033 dollars).

This employee has $95,273 sitting in the FedEx "pot" earning a whopping 4% interest.... I don't think that will provide the missing $30,000 a year for too long. Are we going to resort to eating cat food at age 64 for retired Couriers???

Let's look at it this way. The retired Courier takes his very substantial sum of $95,273 (2033 dollars) and invests that in a plan which will pay out equal annual amounts until exhausting itself at age 80. Let's assume a conserative portfolio with a 5.5% annual return on funds balance. What is the annual benefit to be achieved with this large and quite substantial sum of cash????

Works out to $655 a month or $7,864 a year. For the benefit of our shill, $7,864 plus $9,000 equals $16,864 a year (2033 dollars).

Traditional Pension Plan = $38,750

PPP + Holdover = $16,864

Let's do a fraction for our shills, 16,864/38,750 = 43.52%.

This employee lost over 50% of what they would've received if they had the traditional pension plan in place when they retired. The percentage of loss starts at 0% for those who retired on May 31,2008 and steadily increases until a present day new hire will only be receiving about 33% of what they would've under the DBPP.


I resort to ad hominem attacks against shills when they make broad generalizations and fail to give examples to support their position. Support your falsehoods or do us the favor of going back into the woodwork for another 2 years. If you are a FedEx employee, I hope you've made alternative plans for a retirement. I'll be leaving next year, after having originally planned on making FedEx a second career after retiring from the military. For those who have no alternatives, I hope they can get a union in and silence shills like quadro.

[Ricochet1a]

Originally Posted by FedEX 4 Life

Richotta and MrFedex dont even work for Fedex.I think they use to and got fired and like to post here and bash Fedex.It brings them closure.I can only imagine what they look like in real life.

The next time Express puts out a Frontline video (its been awhile since I've been forced to watch one), I'll tell you all about it.

My closure will occur next year. I'll be sure to let you know. In the mean time, I'll be driving a truck on my pick-up route waiting for the day.

[quadro]

Originally Posted by Ricochet1a

How can I debate based upon an "intellectual" argument you've put forth, when you state no examples and give no figures? You backstop everything with a generalized "it depends" and never give a single example to back up your erroneous statements. This leaves the old ad hominem response to a shill.

I didn't give an example because there are literally thousands of examples and each one is different so it doesn't do much good to put just one out there and also because I never claimed that the PPP was a good deal.

All I did was correct some misinformation that you had such as "you can't have both plans" and "the PPP contribution is only 5%".

The problem is that those were such glaring errors that it brings the rest of your "facts" into question. Not that the rest of your facts are wrong, it just becomes harder to accept what someone says when there are some fundemental errors.

You still haven't acknowledged that the 5% is not a fixed percentage so I don't know if you've accounted for that in your example; therefore, I don't really know if your example is correct or not.

Also, regardless of if the PPP is a good or bad deal, what's wrong with discussing the merits of why ERISA necessitated the change? What about UPS' ~$6Billion payment to exit Central States? Doesn't make me feel really good about what a union can negotiate for my pension. I would need a lot more info about all of that to feel like I was informed enough to make a decision.

Originally Posted by Ricochet1a

I resort to ad hominem attacks against shills when they make broad generalizations and fail to give examples to support their position.

Apparently not as I never really took a position other than to correct some facts that you had wrong and those can easily be verified.

Originally Posted by Ricochet1a

Support your falsehoods

Show me something that I've stated that's false and I'll correct it.

Originally Posted by Ricochet1a

I'll be leaving next year, after having originally planned on making FedEx a second career after retiring from the military. For those who have no alternatives, I hope they can get a union in and silence shills like quadro.

Good for you (and I mean that with all due respect). It's nice to see someone actually take responsibility for their actions and do something about it. I hope whatever you do works better for you than FedEx.

Sorry that you feel that ad hominem attacks and name calling are necessary but I don't take it personally so no hard feelings.

[MrFedEx]

Originally Posted by FedEX 4 Life

Richotta and MrFedex dont even work for Fedex.I think they use to and got fired and like to post here and bash Fedex.It brings them closure.I can only imagine what they look like in real life.

Yes, we don't work there. That's why we have exact and correct information each and every time we post...unlike you. As long as I've got you, please explain how your "retirement" station has the highest SFA score in the country, yet is full of "4-digit whiners" who hate FedEx. It doesn't make any sense, just like the rest of the lying crap you post.

[Ricochet1a]

From FedEx's own site:

Portable Pension Account

For employees accruing benefits under the Portable Pension Account, the pension benefit accrued after
May 31, 2003 is expressed as a notional cash balance account. For each plan year in which a participant is
credited with a year of service, compensation credits are added based on the participant

’s age and years of
service as of the end of the prior plan year and the participant’s eligible compensation for the prior calendar
year based on the following table:

Age + Service on May 31 Compensation Credit

Less than 55 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
55-64 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6%
65-74 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7%

75 or over . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8%

So... for our hypothetical Courier, he'll have a 5% match for the first 15 years of his career, a 6% match for years 16-20 and a a 7% match for years 21-25.

Wow quadro, you were right. That makes all the difference in the world!!! A thousand apologies!!

An extra 1% of gross for 5 years and an extra 2% of gross for the last 5 years! This is going to be livin' large at the big house with that kind of money!!!!

Let's take our new hire with this data from FedEx.

Hired on June 2008 at age 25 at $15/hr.

Tops out at $37.19 in 2025

Let's see what those few percentage points difference got this employee?

With a straight 5% 2033= $138,118

With 5/6/7% 2033 = $154,882

You know, quadro is right.......an extra $16,764 balance as of 2033 ($8,021 in 2009 dollars). Living large, I see it.

Balance in 2043 upon retirement = $229,264 (this is with those extra 1 and 2 percentage points).

With just the 5% assumed before = $204,450

I see it, I see it, quadro was right.... an extra $24,814... makes all the difference!!!

Annuity of $229,264 invested at 5.5% with 20 year draw down to a zero balance

$1,577 monthly pension (2043 dollars) or $19,925 annual

This is $6,743 annual in 2009 dollars.

WOW!!! A FedEx pension after 25 years of service at age 60 of $6,743 in 2009 dollars. All hail quadro, shill extraordinare!!!

Quadro, you quibbled over an insignificant amount and you still are demonstrated to be false in your assertion that FedEx is offering a pension. PLEASE give it up. FedEx4Life, it looks like you signed on to the wrong list to peddle your dribble. Who is "owned" now.

To compare this to the traditional pension...

This employee would've had an average high of $105,000 when he retired in 2033. This would've granted a pension of $52,500 a year at age 60 ($18,683 in 2009 dollars). Someone definately got "owned" here (you sound like a 21 year old FedEx4Life). Let's play fractions for our shill:

$6,743/$18,683 = 36.09%

Our hard working Courier that hired in June 2008 will get just a fraction over 36% of what he would've received under the Traditional Pension Plan.

Why don't you two head back over to bailout.com and peddle your FALSEHOODS there?

[MrFedEx]

Originally Posted by quadro

I don't see anyone who is claiming that $70-$120 per month is a bona fide pension.


For those employees who have both pensions, they are double dipping. Calling an apple an orange doesn't make it an orange. Also, you are the only one who said anything about making out like bandits. No one has claimed that. UPS has more volume and more revenue. They can afford to pay more. And how big or small the lump sum is, if you even choose the lump sum which you don't have to do, depends on a lot of things. There will be many people who end up with a sizeable lump sum.


Never a truer word was spoken.

Yes, FedEx does call it a pension, as in Portable PENSION Plan...can your read? Double dipping? If the PPP actually was a pension that might be true, but it's not. Another inaccurate statement.

Your "analysis" that because UPS is bigger, they can pay more is moronic. They pay more because they have union-represented employees who demand a decent retirement plan. If the Teamsters weren't there, UPS management could and probably would be just as greedy as FedEx management. Isn't it amazing that a company "infested" with an evil union is so profitable? Could it be that the top execs at UPS are better managers who make less and don't fly around in a huge fleet of corporate jets? UPS is more productive and profitable, even with the Teamsters involved.

Calling a troll a shill doesn't make it a shill, so I'll just call you out as a troll for Fred, OK? Keep on posting, and I'll keep smashing your arguments flat.

[vantexan]

Thought I'd add a few points about the 2 pension plans.

The old plan, the traditional pension was figured this way: Take your 5 highest paid years, average them together. This is your "highest average annual pay." Let's say it's $50,000. Now take 2% of that number, which for this example would be $1000, and multiply by total years that you worked at least 1000 hrs. 25 years are the most years allowed for this calculation even if you worked 40. For this example you would receive at age 60 $25,000 annually. FedEx considers 60 the full retirement age although you can choose to not take your pension at 60 and continue to work. If you worked more than 25 years your 5 highest paid years will come out of all the years you've worked, not just the first 25. You may choose to take a reduced pension as early as age 55. Each year you take before age 60 will reduce the full amount by 3%. So at 55 your pension would be 15% less.

Some points about the new plan: there are 4 categories for funding your plan: 5%, 6%, 7%, 8%. Which category you are in depends on how many points you have. Points are determined by your age plus years of service. To get the maximum 8% you have to have 75 points. So a 50 year old with 25 years of service would get credits equal to 8% of his gross placed into his account. At the end of each quarter you would get 1% of what you have in your account added as interest. So 4% annually with some slight compounding.

A major problem with this plan is, besides the fact that it pays much less, is that most of it comes in later years. Under the old plan someone who started at 23 could decide at 48 that his 25 year pension is enough and he'd like to try doing something else. Under the new plan that 23 year old is looking at 5% a year for quite a few years. Most likely less than $2000 a year for a number of years. Under $3000 for quite a few more. If by the time he qualifies for the 8% he's making $50k annually that's only $4000 a year into his account. This plan forces people to work a long, long time to have enough to supplement anything else like Social Security or a 401k. Problem is that SS might not be there given 1. How much the current administration is spending and/or 2. The Republicans are trying to end it. The 401k plans depend very much on our ability to fund them, plus a company match, plus the stock market performance. The old plan was a sure thing, a foundation to build your retirement on. Not as good as some companies, but definitely better than what we have now.

I've been reading with interest some of the posts here. I've voiced my opinions on another forum against a union at this time for specific reasons. I believe Mr.FedEx used to post on that Forum and we have had some conflict. I'm not interested in fussing and fighting here, just wanted to add some clarity as I've seen statements all over the place about the pension. One more thing, under their current scheme, no one will top-out in 12 years. Newhires better plan on 25+ years, possibly 30, to catch top-out. Another consideration is that if FedEx takes away raises, like this year, it'll take even longer.

On edit I see Ricochet1a posted much of the same #'s just before I did. His chart illustrates how long it'll take to accumulate anything in the Portable Pension Plan.

[MrFedEx]

Originally Posted by FedEX 4 Life

Man,Ricochet1a just got OWNED so hard in this thread.

Also did anyone else have to take that HOS test with the 70/8 hr rule?It was lame.

That's interesting coming from someone who gets OWNED every time he posts. Did you pass your HOS test or did your manager give you the correct answers?

[olcc]

Great information, Ricochet. I wish every employee could see your PPP analysis.

Back to the task at hand, here's what I had in mind. It's a PDF file within a ZIP file. Something simple, informative, and factual. No accusations, no mention of a union, just facts.

Comments, suggestions, additions?

[MrFedEx]

Originally Posted by FedEX 4 Life

Its simple.Richotaa and Mr Fedex are the same fragg posting with 2 accounts.I like the way you 2 are always backing eachother up and cheering eachother on like 2 lil girls in 6th grade.

Oh no, we've been found out!! When I'm up against an incredible intellect like yours I need all the help I can to defend myself. Actually, I feel like I'm having a debate with a 6th grader when I deal with you. How did you pass the BST, or is that another FedEx acronym you don't know?

[Broke]

Most of us fedex workers would just like to make a livable wage and have our traditional pension back. Why is that so hard for all of you fedex defenders to understand? You come on here and try to spin everything and make it all sound so great. You always have some kind of hateful response to a reasonable post. I hope this bill passes so you won't be able to lie anymore about how great things are here at fedex. I can't wait to hear from you when station by station we all go teamster.

[Ricochet1a]

This is the spreadsheet both in Excel and Word format.

Assumptions:

25 Year old new hire in June 2008 at $15/hr.

No pay raise for 2009, 2% pay raise 2010, 5.5% annual pay raise until top out occurs.

No change in top end for 2009, 2% increase in 2010 and 3% increase in top end thereafter.

3% annual inflation rate

Full-time employee working 40 hour week plus 10% in OT wages

With the above assumptions, this employee has in 2043 $212,543. This equates to $77,800 in 2009 dollars. This will provide an annuity of $6,422 in 2009 dollars upon retirement at age 60 lasting 20 years until exhaustion at age 80.

All of this assumes FedEx will continue to operate for the next 25 years as it did over the past 25, which will not happen.

PPPs are intended to allow young employees that spend a short time with an employer to leave with a cash balance upon their termination of employment. Defined Benefit Pension Plans tend to reward long term career employees with a livable pension upon retirement age. The switch to a PPP is both less expensive for FedEx and reflects its future desire to have short term, part-time employees which will leave after 5-10 years of employment. FedEx is quickly transforming from a career job for wage earners into part-time employment for those who draw a wage.

[fredly00]

I work with a 73 yr old courier(4 digit employee #) who plans to work until 75 because of the new PPP, not to mention his 401k tanked so he might even work longer...

poor guy.. they even offered him a desk job, but he turned it down... I think he might get
put on the chopping block soon... routes cutting and hour cutting.

[UpstateNYUPSer]

I wonder what kind of time allowance he is given for taking his walker out at every stop?

[Hoaxster]

Originally Posted by UpstateNYUPSer

I wonder what kind of time allowance he is given for taking his walker out at every stop?

Be respectful you young whippersnapper or I'll take my cane to you.

[quadro]

Originally Posted by MrFedEx

Yes, FedEx does call it a pension, as in Portable PENSION Plan...can your read? Double dipping? If the PPP actually was a pension that might be true, but it's not. Another inaccurate statement.

It's called a pension plan because that's what it is by definition. Just because you don't believe it's a good pension plan doesn't change the fact that it's still a pension plan. Yes, technically, it's not double dipping but IMHO when you get paid from two different pension plans, it certainly meets the loose definition of double dipping.

Originally Posted by MrFedEx

Your "analysis" that because UPS is bigger, they can pay more is moronic. They pay more because they have union-represented employees who demand a decent retirement plan. If the Teamsters weren't there, UPS management could and probably would be just as greedy as FedEx management. Isn't it amazing that a company "infested" with an evil union is so profitable? Could it be that the top execs at UPS are better managers who make less and don't fly around in a huge fleet of corporate jets? UPS is more productive and profitable, even with the Teamsters involved.

Did you look at the last 10K statements? Take a look and tell me who has more money. When was the last time that employees got everything a union demanded? They can demand what they want, they get it because both sides agree to it. And I never said the union was evil. And you're correct, UPS is more productive and profitable.

[quadro]

Originally Posted by Ricochet1a

From FedEx's own site:

Portable Pension Account
For employees accruing benefits under the Portable Pension Account, the pension benefit accrued after
May 31, 2003 is expressed as a notional cash balance account. For each plan year in which a participant is

credited with a year of service, compensation credits are added based on the participant

’s age and years of

service as of the end of the prior plan year and the participant

’s eligible compensation for the prior calendar

year based on the following table:

Age + Service on May 31 Compensation Credit

Less than 55 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
55-64 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6%
65-74 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7%

75 or over . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8%

So... for our hypothetical Courier, he'll have a 5% match for the first 15 years of his career, a 6% match for years 16-20 and a a 7% match for years 21-25.

Wow quadro, you were right. That makes all the difference in the world!!! A thousand apologies!!

Ok, Ricochet, I'm going to type this slowly so that you can understand it as I've already said it several times but you either are missing it or choosing to ignore it: I never said that the PPP was a good thing. Some people will benefit from it and some won't. I also never said that the percentage would make a big difference. I simply pointed out 2 errors in your original statement. 1. You don't get both pensions - we've established you do. 2. The PPP isn't fixed at 5% - you've finally acknowledged that fact also.

You know, all you had to do was say "mea culpa it's not locked at 5% but it really doesn't make a difference" and leave it at that.

Instead, you and MrFedEx resort to ad hominem arguments. Here's the problem with that. I said I'm not very well versed in TVM calculations etc, and here was an opportunity for you to say "let me show you how it works and how it's probably not a good deal for you, and by the way, it's not locked at 5% but let me also show you how that makes little difference". You finally did that (for the most part) a few posts up. Now if you had done that in the first place, I would have had a lot more respect for what you had to say as it is clear, concise, makes sense, and educates me. Then when I hear other FedEx employees who are likely also not as well versed in this as you seem to be, I wouldn't hesitate to tell them what you've said and how they can get more information. Thus making for a stronger base of employees who are willing to fight for what's right because they understand the issues and won't get fooled by misinformation.

Unfortunately, you and MrFedEx decide it's better to belittle people and alienate them rather than building strength.

I realize that in a forum such as this that emotions tend to run high but doesn't it make more sense to try and educate people rather than alienate them? If people come in here to attack you, it's a lot easier to just ignore them. However, people such as myself who are trying to understand the big picture and try to have a respectful discussion are the ones you can convince if you respond respectfully.

Just my 2cents.

Oh, and I still am curious why no one has offered any explanation or more detail as to why the switch from DBPP to PPP occurred. And again, for anyone not paying attention, I'm not saying the PPP is good or bad as an overall plan, I'm just looking for discussion as to why the switch and what else could have been done.

Originally Posted by Ricochet1a

Why don't you two head back over to bailout.com and peddle your FALSEHOODS there?

And just for the record, you made the first false statements but I'm willing to let that go.

[olcc]

Made a few changes/additions.

Please print and spread the word! The only way we can convince FedEx employees of the benefits of union membership is by getting this information to as many people as possible. Link to this thread, give the flyer to coworkers, put it in dropboxes--JUST GET IT OUT THERE!!

[MrFedEx]

Originally Posted by FedEX 4 Life

[/LEFT]
Well said.These clowns just want to make me hate my job.

Fred loves useful idiots. Do you need an explanation?

[Ricochet1a]

Originally Posted by olcc

Made a few changes/additions.

Please print and spread the word! The only way we can convince FedEx employees of the benefits of union membership is by getting this information to as many people as possible. Link to this thread, give the flyer to coworkers, put it in dropboxes--JUST GET IT OUT THERE!!

Be careful about doing this. This is considered to be solicitation by FedEx and will get one an instant warning letter if caught. Handing out copies to coworkers is one thing, but if you put your flyer into dropboxes and get caught you're looking at an indefinate suspension if not outright termination. FedEx could accuse you of a variety of offenses, including defacing FedEx property and solicitation during company time. FedEx doesn't play games with this; this is why most if not all of us stay anonymous.

All it would take would be two employees reporting you to management that you handed them your flyer on company time or property and you're cooked. Believe me, there are employees that would love to garner favor by reporting a union activist. If you are going to distribute "information" do it without anyone's knowledge at your station. Place them in employees' "mailboxes" in your station, go around and place them in the trucks when you know you aren't being observed. If you are fulltime, come in early and place them. If you are part-time pick-up, hang around after the shift and place them in the trucks or boxes. If you place them in trucks do so after PSTs so that they don't get thrown away.

I admire your enthusiam but advise caution.

[tworavens]

Originally Posted by Ricochet1a

All it would take would be two employees reporting you to management that you handed them your flyer on company time or property and you're cooked. Believe me, there are employees that would love to garner favor by reporting a union activist. If you are going to distribute "information" do it without anyone's knowledge at your station. Place them in employees' "mailboxes" in your station, go around and place them in the trucks when you know you aren't being observed. If you are fulltime, come in early and place them. If you are part-time pick-up, hang around after the shift and place them in the trucks or boxes. If you place them in trucks do so after PSTs so that they don't get thrown away.

I admire your enthusiam but advise caution.

Don't forget also that color laser printers add encoded information to every printed page, which is invisible to the naked eye and can be used to trace which printer the page came from. Print your pages on a b/w printer, preferably at the UPS store.

[Sleeve_meet_Heart]

Originally Posted by FedEx courier

I got my pension statement in the mail the other day. It said I have a little over 7000 for a lump sum or a little over 70 a month for a monthly payout. I was thinking with this hefty retirement I could move to Barbados and buy a mansion! I have over 17 years with the company, maybe if I worked until I was about 172 I could afford to pay my rent on the FedEx portable pension plan. Even at the bottom of that there was a statement that said the amounts were subject to change based on the descretion of the employer. I guess "operational need" applies to the FedEx portable pension plan just like everything else at FedEx. What a freaking joke!!!!!!

Once again "Fedex 4 life", if you actually worked for the company you would know that there isn't a FedEx pension anymore. It's just another example of FedEx calling something a name that it isn't. I mean this in the most unsarcastic way that it can possible be stated, YOU ARE A JOKE FEDEX 4 LIFE, AND YOU LOOK MORE FAKE WITH EVERY STATEMENT THAT YOU POST!!!!!!!!

I keep hearing PPP PPP, but in reality it is "PPA", a portable pension account and it is much less misleading.

[MrFedEx]

Originally Posted by Sleeve_meet_Heart

I keep hearing PPP PPP, but in reality it is "PPA", a portable pension account and it is much less misleading.

FedEx named it the PPP and has since re-named it the PPA. No matter what you call it, it isn't a good deal.

[MrFedEx]

Originally Posted by FedEX 4 Life

Just dont get caught handing them out

Why not? After all, "FedEx is not anti-union in any way". That's what Fred is always saying, isn't it? Why would he be so terrified of some informational flyers that would serve to wake-up a few thousand of his employees as to how they can never retire (at least from FedEx).

To even speak of the union has been enough to get one targeted for termination. Isn't that against the law? Oh, I'm sorry, the law doesn't apply to either Fred or FedEx.

[Ricochet1a]

Originally Posted by Sleeve_meet_Heart

I keep hearing PPP PPP, but in reality it is "PPA", a portable pension account and it is much less misleading.

The "Plan" is the set of rules that apply to ALL employees to determine what FedEx will place into each individual emplioyee's "Account".

Plan = instruction manual to deposit tiny amounts of cash

Account = individual balance of tiny amounts of cash.

None of us care what each other have in their account. It is the plan which applies to all that we talk about.