How would you treat this accident and why

[dannyboy]

You can't have this discussion unless you first acknowledge that defensive driving does prevent accidents.

Ill do you one better than that. It is my observation at UPS that those drivers that have never had an accident, never had a ticket of any type are those drivers that take the time to do things right. Each and every time. And I will also tell you that while experience and training plays a very large role in the over all safety picture, there is a bit of luck involved to. Or Divine guidance.

I will also tell you that in cutting corners to run the numbers that the company wants drivers to run, leaves many drivers wide open for accidents. Cutting corners is never ever the answer.

As to your 60-40, in most places including ours, it is more along the lines of 90-10 or more in favor of avoidable. Which is a real shame as it leads to the feeling of futility on the part of the drivers. And then when you have one of our drivers have a roll away(lucky to only have minimal damage to our car and a sign) and the accident is not avoidable (this driver singlehandedly is responsible for 50% of torn off mirrors, most while leaving the building, several torn off bumpers and an in the building side swipe) none of which got him charged with an accident, and then you charge someone with an avoidable when avoiding a head on with a school bus in your side of the road, and all that happened is you broke the top mirror?

All the drivers ask for is a level playing field. Someone to look at the incident and rule on it by the available information only, not by who the driver is.

And yes, just like trick posted earlier, the afore mentioned driver is one of those that runs like a bat out of hell, cuts corners on safety and service, has such a bad attitude toward customers that he has been banned from four routes, but he runs 1-2 hours under on most routes, and is off the clock in 6-7 hours. He has also put in for full time management 6 or 7 times now over the past 10 years.

Oh and did I mention, he is also on the injury repeater list each and every year, along with the auto repeater list.

So while you and I agree on many issues, first hand experience has taught me that Trick's attitude, while somewhat stereotypical at times, is one that has been given to him by his management team. I could very easily digress to the same attitude, but I still have hope of something better. And work to try and change the system.

d

[tieguy]

And what are you doing Trick? You refuse to conceed the point that driving defensively can help you avoid many accidents. Looks like you're following the negative employee party line?

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

So while you and I agree on many issues, first hand experience has taught me that Trick's attitude, while somewhat stereotypical at times, is one that has been given to him by his management team. I could very easily digress to the same attitude, but I still have hope of something better. And work to try and change the system.

d

Danny ,

I do have to wonder. Do you think UPS management told trick who to marry, which kids to abort and which to let live and what house to live in? The reason I ask is because you and he both are trying to blame UPS for everything else that has ever happened in your lives.

[tieguy]

But then I guess I shouldn't fault the two of you , its so much easier to go through life if you can blame some damn faceless company for everything you ever screwed up. Have an accident deny any responsibility and blame the company because they did something that made you have it.

Tricks a feeder driver who never heard of defensive driving. Why he thinks you start the truck up and it drives itself and it the truck decides whether he is going to have an accident and kill someone that day or not.

This is actually great dialogue because the more you two try to avoid all defensive driving responsibility and try to blame the company the dumber this conversation gets. But its the way you want it so what the hell. Lets just have a bitch and whine , piss our pants and blame the company for everything dialogue so we can all feel better about ourselves.

[dannyboy]

Go ahead and get it off your chest. IT helps, doesn't it?

Tie, when its all said and done, Its not UPS that has kicked the dog so may times that there are trust issues, it is the management team. Not all of them, but enough to cause the problems and issues I have raised.

And by your reaction, I would guess that you too know, or you at one time were the cause, of what we are talking about.

As for things in my life, UPS has had a large impact on it. Cant say that there is fault, but then again if UPS had used all the training they give the employees, there would never be any fault with the company now would there.

Bottom line is this. There are problems with the way accidents are charged. If you want to pick apart any accident, then hell yes, you can say the driver failed in one point or more. But as a practical matter, we as drivers are not perfect, but we try. Maybe sometimes more than management.

BTW, hope you had a good fathers day!

d

[tieguy]

Danny,

I really think you have to look in the mirror. To have this debate about avoidability you have to be willing to have honest dialogue about what defensive driving can and cannot do to help you avoid accidents. Both you and trick refuse to even conceed the main points of defensive driving. Both of you keep generating some abstract rare occurances as your defense. Both of you are scared to death to take ownership as true defensive driving requires. Yet both of you keep trying to find a way to blame management. I believe you should both learn to hold yourselves accoutable before trying to blame managment for your shortcomings.

[tieguy]

P.S. I don't have enough time in my life nor the desire to screw up your life. I think you should therefore learn to blame the individual that did screw up your life. I would never ever think to refer to all teamsters as theives simply because I occasionally catch one stealing. Perhaps the word management should also be too broad a stroke for you to paint your sordid painting with?

[trickpony1]

Tie-
You're right...I concede.
My mother didn't love me enough when I was a very young child.....it's her fault.

(sarcasm intended)

[dannyboy]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">You can't have this discussion unless you first acknowledge that defensive driving does prevent accidents. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Ill do you one better than that. It is my observation at UPS that those drivers that have never had an accident, never had a ticket of any type are those drivers that take the time to do things right. Each and every time. And I will also tell you that while experience and training plays a very large role in the over all safety picture, there is a bit of luck involved to. Or Divine guidance

Dearest Tie
Do you need the Braille version. Or do you know how to increase the size of the type you are reading so you can get it all?
Not only did I concede, I went a step or two further. The only one that seems to have problems dealing with the subject is you.

I believe you should both learn to hold yourselves accountable before trying to blame management for your shortcomings.

I dont have any shortcomings. Therefor I cant blame you or anyone else for them now can I? So why is it that you are so afraid of leveling the playing field that you refuse to address the issue? Is it a power trip, afraid of losing some of the authority? Or are you afraid of drivers objectively looking at each individual accident, allowing them to pick it apart and coming up with what ever they come up with? Why are you so opposed to the change?
I dont blame anyone at UPS. I only posted what I saw or what I actually went through first hand. Deal with it. Its the truth. No blame assessed, just presented the facts. And if it caused you some discomfort, maybe it is you that needs the look in the mirror.
Sounds like you had a crappy fathers day. Sorry bout that. Maybe next year.
d

[tieguy]

Thats your choice Trick. As long as you don't develop a motherly relationship with the company and start blaming them for all your faults.

Defensive driving will help keep you accident free, in order to apply the concept you have to hold yourself accountable. This application appears to be where you have your problem.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

Dearest Tie
d

Sweetums I'm sorry did appear that you listed quite a few reasons you felt you had to blame this person "management" whoever he is for your problems at UPS.

In either case you and trick have done a nice job of avoiding the defensive driving personal accountability issue in this subject. Until you do I can't help you. Its not something I'm not used to. I often find the loudmouth who screams how the company does not care about safety is the first one to tuck and run when I discuss personal accountability with him. It did appear that you followed that script. Trick definitely did. In fact I'm starting to wonder if trick actually ever drove anything since he does not seem to know much about defensive driving and avoids the subject at all costs.

Thats okay though whatever rocks you boat. Don't start the dialogue if you're not willing to recieve some honest answers.

[dannyboy]

Damn Tie

I was trying to be nice, but you seem to have a problem reading my posts. Pull your head out and re read the post.

Hell, Im begining to understand Susies frustration!

d

[tieguy]

Danny,

didn't realize you felt the need to be nice or that I was not being nice. In discussing this issue I honestly think personal accountability what is missing.

[dannyboy]

If there is, then it might well be on both sides. Personal accountability goes all the way from the driver to the corp offices in Atlanta. The fact that you sit there once a year and let us watch a 90 second video does not training make.

Now getting back to the theory you have that the accident could have been avoidable because she did not check the mirrors.

You did not respond to my question. Had she seen the cycle two blocks back coming on like gang busters, should she wait to make the turn until the traffic behind her has come to a complete stop, or should she go on now that there is no oncoming traffic?

d

[over9five]

"...should she wait to make the turn until the traffic behind her has come to a complete stop, or should she go on..."

Is anyone a Trekkie (like me)? CLASSIC Kobiashi Maru!

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

If there is, then it might well be on both sides. Personal accountability goes all the way from the driver to the corp offices in Atlanta. The fact that you sit there once a year and let us watch a 90 second video does not training make.

Now getting back to the theory you have that the accident could have been avoidable because she did not check the mirrors.

You did not respond to my question. Had she seen the cycle two blocks back coming on like gang busters, should she wait to make the turn until the traffic behind her has come to a complete stop, or should she go on now that there is no oncoming traffic?

d

First off I did not say the accident was avoidable I gave an example where it could be the fault of the motorcyclists and yet the driver could be charged with an avoidable accident. You assumed I past judgement. I don't have the detail required to definitively charge this accident.

second If it comes down to the mirror issue then she should not wait until all traffic would be stopped behind her. the issue would be did she have the opportunity to see the motorcyclist in her mirrors and did she check her mirrors. the article does not give us that detail.


Thus I took this article , I told you why it did not have enough detail , I gave you a possible scenario where you could have the fault and an avoidability determination charged to each driver and I feel you then assumed I had passed judgement when I clearly stated I felt there was not enough information to make that judgement. You presented a blurb of an article. Were I to investigate this accident I would be marking out the scene to see where everyone was at, gathering eyewitness accounts, taking numerous pictures and measuring out the scene from every angle. Your two paragraph article is not enough information to compensate for a complete accident investigation.

[tieguy]

with all due respect your handling of my response where I continously stated the information was incomplete yet you assumed a judgement in my humble opinion shows a deep seated anger on the subject that gets me a response from you I have not earned.

I deal with this subject all the time , I investiage accidents all the time and I think i should at least be given some credit for understanding this subject. I have seen numerous accidents where it appeared the other motorist had some type of death wish and ran into us. I have seen some where I questioned what really happened but could not prove avoidability. And I have some where drivers clearly screwed up. Most of these drivers were very honest and told me they screwed up. You will find an example in every center where some overzealous management person labeled an accident avoidable when only jesus christ could have avoided the accident. that does not disqualify the whole process.

Trickpony made the point that the company classifies avoidable and fires the driver to try to avoid responsibility for the lawsuit. My experience has been that we often pay for accidents that are not our fault. Some judge looks at the poor schumk that had the brainfart and ran into us and figures Bigbadbrown can aford to pay the guys medical bills better then the schumk can. Therefore we pay even when its not our fault. This has happened many times. So if there is any motivation to avoid the lawsuit it has to start by coming up with the answer that helps us avoid having the accident at all. Most of us in management do not have someone breathing down our necks trying to force us to find all accidents avoidable. We instead try to maintain the integrity of the process. We try to look at the accident see if there was something reasonable that the driver could have done to prevent that accident. We try to give the driver the benifit of the doubt while at the same time maintaining the integrity of the process. Most will not want to hear that but this is the honest answer most management will give you.

You previously said all accidents in your building are charged as avoidable. How many feeder accidents do you have in your area every year where a feeder driver or even a package driver hits a deer. Most if not all of those are always unavoidable.

[mrbill]

ARE ALL ACCIDENTS AT YOUR DESK AVOIDABLE?


ARE ALL YOUR THREADS ON THIS FORUM DONE ON COMPANY TIME WHILE YOU SIT AT YOUR DESK DOING NOTHING ALL DAY?

[dannyboy]

Interesting you should bring up deer. the last two here were charged as avoidable.

We have a bigger problem in part of our center with coal trucks. It would seem they think they own the road. And in some cases have run our drivers off the road.

As for the process, there are many ways to make it better. And why is it not tried? Is it that management is afraid of losing its dominance? Why do they not at least try to change the system to where it is a level playing field?

I mean after all, a roll away, and they did not charge him with anything?

Bill

Tie works many different shifts, and many times at night. So it would be very hard to pinpoint when he is actually on company time when he posts or on his personal time. My guess is only on personal time, as I have "known" him for quite a while. And while he and I might disagree profusely at times, I find him at the very least attempting honesty and integrity.

d