Appropriate discipline

[paidslave]

Originally Posted by tieguy

Just curious . Do you have any idea how much that driver endangered the general public driving like that? If that car stops suddenly or has a blow out then that tractor trailer will do a lot of damage and possibly kill a lot of people before he comes to a stop. Would you feel the same way if your wife and kids were in the car being tailgated and then cut off from the front? take your gut out of the us vs them crap and put your family in that situation then tell me whats right and wrong.

At the same time the reporter driving that car knowingly created a hazardous situation to do his new story.

Thus I say fire em both.

There you go again laying out lots of senario playing on emotions. Suggesting if my children ir loved ones are dead.

I agree I wouldn't want anyone to die over stupidity! But to surmise and basically say,"if you would like your kids to remain alive, agree that this is the guy who killed them and fire him or better yet hang him."

This quote is untrue.

Again, you don't sell me much here but only draws on fear of what could have happen without keeping things in perpective in which did not happened.

Written warning max to change this stupid act of conduct and some stupidity counseling!


I forgot you are a perfect angel, and so, you have done nothing stupid to deserve enlightement or understanding to change anything about you!


You were born the TIEGUY>>>

I suggest: Lets Fire the cameraman for causing strife, Lets correct this this type of aggresssive driving with a talk with the driver along with a written warning and some managememt radar!

Tie? You are only a 14 percenter and I am a 64 percenter according to the poll as it stand so good luck with your psyche!

[fredly00]

Actually after re-watching the video..
The driver did everything right

Aim High in Steering (He was looking to drive right over the reporters van)
Get the big Picture, (How better than to get a big picture of your UPS GRILL on TV)
Keep your eyes Moving, (He was obviously looking very hard to get around this clown)
Leave yourself an out (He took the Expressway right OUT of UPS)
Make sure they see you (Using his lights and truck everyone saw him, including UPS)

I'm pretty sure, that if he was fired, I doubt that the Union would fight for him, I know I wouldn't.

[1timepu]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

And if the posted speed limit is not what the truck driver is suposed to be doing, how the heck is he suposed to know?

Actually, I understand what you were trying to say. The posted speed limit for trucks is different than the posted speed limit for cars in some areas. Ours for one. And ask any state trooper. When that happens, the accident rate increases for cars slamming into the rear of the larger trucks. Especially when it is 10 MPH or greater difference, like it is here.

BTW, in our area the speed limit was reduced by a gooberment official that stated "I dont know if it will decrease the polution of the bigger trucks or not, but we need to do it anyway because it is the right thing to do." Kinda like all the global warming freaks, gotta do all this BS cause the world is getting too warm. Yeah right! But I digress.

But in the area the video was taken, not so.

I again state, that those that deliberatly drive 10 MPH slower than the posted speed limit for no other reason than they do, are just a big a traffic issue as those that go 10 above. You have made your vehicle an obstruction. You can try and hide behind safety if you want, but you know better than that.

d

Guess what Car speed limit 65...Truck speed limit 60 my speed 55 and I stay in the right, and I am not trying to HIDE behind safety, as I have said 20 YEARS OF SAFE DRIVING!!!!!!!! Safety is number one with me, last fall pulling doubles across the Cross Bronx( busiest highway in the country) lost air to rear trailer........good thing I was riding in right lane plus slower than the traffic, was able to pull over to the side and no accident!!! You can think waht you want but I know why I do what I do, and that is so I dont kill anybody, and I dont kill myself.

[dannyboy]

always 5 to 10 below the speed limit

THe conversation was at a speed limit of 65, with you doing 55 on that roadway.

At 10MPH less than the posted speed limit for your vehicle, you become a hazzard to traffic. At only 10MPH below that, you are prohibited from even using the roadway.

In your last post, you are now trying to qualify your position to match the common concensus that driving too slow is a real hazzard. You are trying to tell us that it is only 5 MPH below posted, different from your first post quoted above.

Now, you are in the far right lane, screaming along at 55 in a 65. All the other big rigs only have the middle lane to pass you in, and there is a schmuck in that lane that will not use the car lane, or move into the right lane when it is clear and he is not passing. What are they to do? I guess by default, they all have to go 10 MPH under the speed limit, causing traffic to back up and become bumper to bumper. And we all know what happens when traffic becomes bumper to bumper.

IF your driving skills stop at 55, thats fine. You are in your comfort zone. We dont want to upset you with the suggestion that you are going too slow. But dont take on that super rightious attitude that you have 20 years safe driving because you do 55. That is a crock.

d

[1timepu]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

THe conversation was at a speed limit of 65, with you doing 55 on that roadway.

At 10MPH less than the posted speed limit for your vehicle, you become a hazzard to traffic. At only 10MPH below that, you are prohibited from even using the roadway.

In your last post, you are now trying to qualify your position to match the common concensus that driving too slow is a real hazzard. You are trying to tell us that it is only 5 MPH below posted, different from your first post quoted above.

Now, you are in the far right lane, screaming along at 55 in a 65. All the other big rigs only have the middle lane to pass you in, and there is a schmuck in that lane that will not use the car lane, or move into the right lane when it is clear and he is not passing. What are they to do? I guess by default, they all have to go 10 MPH under the speed limit, causing traffic to back up and become bumper to bumper. And we all know what happens when traffic becomes bumper to bumper.

IF your driving skills stop at 55, thats fine. You are in your comfort zone. We dont want to upset you with the suggestion that you are going too slow. But dont take on that super rightious attitude that you have 20 years safe driving because you do 55. That is a crock.

d

How many years you got?? I contribute my safe driving years to HOW I DRIVE!

OMG !!! You are really professional drivers ???
Speed Limit means Maximun speed allowed for that road in ANY lane.
Here let's rephase this example.
If your wife and children were killed by this idiot PROFESSIONAL DRIVER while driving the speed limit ,would you really say
"Well she should have moved to the RIGHT"
"Maybe he was in a hurry to use the bathroom"
"She wasn't moving with the flow of traffic"
"I hate whan people set there cruise control for the speed limit"
"She should have know better,Crazy to drive the speed limit in the middle"
Thank God you drivers are out there being professional and making sure my FAMILY of NON_PROFESSIONAL love ones make it home!!!!!!!!!!

[UPS Lifer]

Originally Posted by local804

The favorite choice here is failure to follow instructions.
They dont have to use this incident to fire him. They will just use typical UPS tactics when they need to remove an employee and start thier game plan.

There you go with the conspiracy theory that management is out to get all non-management! Because of the TV exposure, discipline would need to be swift. A covert operation to go after this driver would not make the point necessary to set the example. I know you know this!!!

As you already know, I don't think you should fire someone just because UPS got embarrassed on local TV.

This is where the union comes into play. I stand by what I say. Gross negligence will be hard to prove. Therefore the case for termination is hard to prove. There was no injury or accident. A good BA should be able to throw enough doubt out there to eliminate a decision of termination.

I would not allow hypotheticals to come into play! Stay with the facts and the video - throw in some remorse and the case is won.

If it were your wife and kids out there and if someone got killed and if the feeder hit a car there could be a chain reaction....

They weren't -no one did - there was none!

Warn the driver and retrain him. Why do we always look for the worst in our people. I will bet the driver kicked himself in the butt after he realized what he did. End of story!

If he has another unsafe act .... well he becomes fair game and grounds for termination have been established.

[atatbl]

I do not post here much. I have negative rep points for a reason. I am sure I will get them for this.

I read threads here everyday. When I read this thread originally it was only about a page long. It was disgusting to see danny_boy defend this drivers actions. Saying that it is illegal to be in a middle (or far left lane for that matter) and do the posted speed limit. I am happy to see most of you do not agree with him. Perhaps, as some of you have brought up, he should learn there is a MINIMUM MPH on EVERY HIGHWAY AND INTERSTATE in the country. NO EXCEPTION. We all know (with the exception of danny), that this is MUCH less than 60MPH EVERYWHERE. I know he will argue with me, but I challenge him to find something different through Nexus or LawLibrary. I am not an attorney yet, but a juvenile could defend ANYONE who gets a ticket for doing 60 in the FAR LEFT lane (much less the middle) and get a "not guilty" verdict.

More to the point, after two sets of research I found no substantial**** case law of any party that has ever been cited for doing the speed limit on a U.S. interstate or highway.

**** There were two cases I found that convicted (meaning convicted before this incident even occurred) drug dealers were pulled over for not allowing traffic to pass while in the right lane. You read that correctly. They were in the far right lane, yet did not let traffic pass. This is not a debate about illegal profiling for convicted offenders, so please do not bother to argue about that point. I just had to make sure that everyone knew where the two cases that were exceptions came from. By the way they were on I-35....... kind of known to drug traffickers or anyone involved in law enforcement.

Furthermore, the "shock jock" reporter was a prick for doing what he did, overall. However, he did it because it is the type of thing his job demands. That is not an excuse. If any of us did this for fun, it would be sickening.

WHY HE DID THIS IS NOT THE POINT. At least not in the U.S. He followed the law to watch someone break it. This was the point. danny will not understand why what he did was legal (as he has pointed out), but it was. It is how we make changes. I do not like that the victim happened to be us. We work for UPS, this is not good for us. The driver deserves whatever he gets. This is not good FOR US. Again, we work for UPS! See the emblem on that truck? UPS. We became the victim of THAT DRIVER'S actions.

I am sorry to seem so vindictive in this posting. Neg rep away. The point still remains, I am SOOOOOOOOOO happy most of you saw through that gorilla dust danny posted about the reporter breaking the law in ANY WAY. He did what he did, it was POSSIBLY unethical to the average person, certainly not in media perspective. Definitely not in interstate traffic law.

Danny, I submit to you that I would like you to quit preaching to a church you do not belong to. Please. Quit. We know that you know how to get police reports. You showed that in the other thread.

In fact, you manage to make a post here stating one sentence ON TOPIC and then revert back to the thread about the motorcyclist.

I look forward to you quoting three or four sentences from my post and then molesting them into a controverted mind frame that was not the substance of my post. Which you never fail at doing, but then again, I am not the first person to bring this to your attention.

-Reporter followed the law
-Feeder driver followed to closely (citation)
-Feeder driver flashed lights in aggressive manner (citation)
-This is illegal on ALL interstates, although not federal law. Every area of interstate has the "road rage" clause in it now, which includes this. Statute numbers vary from "section" to "section".
-Driver aggressively merged lanes (cutoff) the reporter. Forget statutes you can find this in any state's laws. However, Interstates have federal mandate on that. I am just to tired, lazy, and angry to find it. Find it yourself. If you do not believe me, challenge me then. (Regardless, citation)

[local804]

[quote=UPS Lifer;311256]There you go with the conspiracy theory that management is out to get all non-management! Because of the TV exposure, discipline would need to be swift. A covert operation to go after this driver would not make the point necessary to set the example. I know you know this!!!

QUOTE]

No no no Ups lifer, I do not use a conspiriacy theory that all UPS management is out to get our non management employees. I have seen way too many retaliatory moves first hand from management here(NY area) to back my opinion. From guys speaking up in PCM to filing grievances, some have got alot of unwanted attention and had to deal with oversupervision and micrmanagement to its fullest. From what I can tell, management like yourself and Chan are not your typical UPS management here. Tieguy, well maybe thats a different stroy (jk) I also am the one who thinks the driver is totally wrong and should be dealt with for JUST the action he took and not set out for a witch hunt.

[atatbl]

[quote=local804;311323]

Originally Posted by UPS Lifer

There you go with the conspiracy theory that management is out to get all non-management! Because of the TV exposure, discipline would need to be swift. A covert operation to go after this driver would not make the point necessary to set the example. I know you know this!!!

QUOTE]

No no no Ups lifer, I do not use a conspiriacy theory that all UPS management is out to get our non management employees. I have seen way too many retaliatory moves first hand from management here(NY area) to back my opinion. From guys speaking up in PCM to filing grievances, some have got alot of unwanted attention and had to deal with oversupervision and micrmanagement to its fullest. From what I can tell, management like yourself and Chan are not your typical UPS management here. Tieguy, well maybe thats a different stroy (jk) I also am the one who thinks the driver is totally wrong and should be dealt with for JUST the action he took and not set out for a witch hunt.

Your post raises a very interesting question. How to handle it without making it a witch hunt.

I would definitely agree that this incident should only be disciplined for the driver in the way that it would be for any other. If he has previous "engagements", such as this one, then increase the penalty. If not, discipline him the same way you would if there were not reporters present and filming it.

This might open a whole different can of worms. How is a company supposed to treat an employee that acts like this and then gets media attention? Keeping to the specifics of this case: a professional that directly disobeys laws that he has agreed to abide by as a professional. Laws that directly affect that professionals occupation. Say, for example, a police officer buys cocaine in a non-occupational stature. Or, a broker uses inside information to make transactions. Or, a doctor fails to follow the Hippocratic Oath. Maybe, a lawyer fails to defend his/her client "zealously".

As I know will be pointed out, there are some logical flaws to this analogy. Comparing the examples I gave to a professional driver should deduct: A professional driver steals packages and then delivers them to a co-conspirator.

However, the point remains, these things happen every day. At least this driver is in a union. He may be offered another non-driving job at some point. All of the others I pointed out lose their licenses to practice or serve immediately and will probably NEVER work in the same field again. When police officers do what that driver did, they are fired. Most are forced to go into private security. I hope I do not offend anyone with the next sentence, it is not meant maliciously. That would be equivalent of most of you going to work for DHL in the U.S.

I ask again, what is the organization to do? Not make a disciplinary action? Of course not, they have to. Not fire the individual? Asinine. Completely Asinine. Actions needs to be taken. Lives were risked in this situation. Remember my examples? How many people die when insider info is used to trade? How many people are guaranteed death when police break the law? How many people suffer when a doctor commits malpractice? The answer: you cannot put a number on it. Every situation only has POTENTIAL for a NEGATIVE OUTCOME.

This driver raised the potential (from just being someone on the road, that might be in an unavoidable accident at any second) to a level that most people see as scary.

Forget any press = good press for the pretense of the latter:

-No action = bad press, clear negligence of the company, loss of sales
-Action not deemed acceptable by public = bad press, possible future lawsuit, loss of sales
-Termination (or any "rash" recourse) = bettering press in follow-up, sales steadily average

(The previous is ONLY meant to address "what is a company to do?". That is why I am not taking into account this driver having to find another place to feed his family. Sometimes people forget, when you work for a PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANY you work for a PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANY. People will argue whether or not the good of the many should screw the good of the few, but I will not do that here.)

The amazing thing is, thanks to attorneys that keep danny's point of mind in this, this driver will be out there with potential to kill, maim, hurt others within a months time.

You can all squawk at the comparison that it could be your family in the next vehicle this guy does this to. You can tell those posters "keep playing on emotion." The fact that you are all ignoring is this: It will always be someone's family. To be honest, I do not care if it is yours. Amazingly enough, I cannot honestly wish it was, because it is not their fault you are such a horrible person. I know the neg reps are coming for this, but let me explain. You say it is all a play on emotions?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! How so????? It is HUMAN LIFE. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS YOUR FAMILY OR NOT. Quit being so careless to toss out OTHERS' families. I want mine to live, regardless of whether you do or not.

[dannyboy]

Ive tried to make sense of your last post. you were doing pretty well until the bold area. You must have inhaled too deeply.

Try again.

d

Or then again, not.

[brownrecluse]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

Dear sat

The driver was not in the fast lane, he was in the middle, going slower than the rest of the traffic, not just the UPS truck. the correct place for the car would have been in the far right lane, except to pass. So the car was actually breaking the law as well, something the feeder driver was well aware of.

But that does not excuse his poor behaviour.

d

I respectfully disagree (with the legal aspect of your post). If the car was driving the max speed limit in the center or the right lane, then clearly no law was being broken. If however the car was driving continuously in the left lane, then a law (at least in MI) is being broken.

While I personally think it's wise to go with the flow (in any non-commercial vehicle), there is no law (again in MI) on the books that states that a driver must keep up to, or may not drive slower than, other traffic that's breaking the law by speeding.

Common courtesy, and unfortunately nothing else, dictates that the 4 wheeler should have moved to the right to let the truck pass. However, professionalism and training, and a plethora of other reasons, should have kept the feeder driver within his space/safety cushion. Period. no debate, non-negotiable.

We are professional drivers. We train, and we become professional drivers so that we act accordingly, professionally, and safely in any given situation that we may encounter on the road.

There's no rational, logical, or legal reason that the feeder driver had any right to endanger the lives or property of others just because he didn't want to travel the speed limit.

...and...that car in the middle lane would have annoyed me too.

PT

[dannyboy]

I Dont know how else to say it. I never once defended the UPS driver. What he did was wrong. Period. I did offer some potential scenario's where a Driver might be in a bigger hurry than others.

What I did comment on was the fact that the slower driver, regardless of speed, stayed in the middle lane. The lane that the truck drivers are restricted to when passing slow traffic in the right lane. The car could have very easily moved to the left lane, to allow the truck driver to pass in his passing lane. Remember, he is not allowed to use the far left lane. Period.

That is what my comments are about. The restriction of the truck traffic to the right two lanes, and the stupidity and inconsiderate behaviour of the car traffic that hogs the center thinking that is the travel lane. Its not, its the truck passing lane, the only way they can go around slower drivers like 1 time that refuse to do the speed limit. That is the only way they have to go around road blocks like that.

GEEZ, read the post for what it says, not for what you think you want it to say.

d