ethics in management

[trplnkl]

[quote=tieguy;328008][quote=trplnkl;327822]

Originally Posted by tieguy

proves my point. Lets say we have some divison manager that gets his/her gut into a case. At worse it might cost us backpay with the grievance process where a courtroom could easily cost much more. Or we discharge and bring back in a couple of weeks with no back pay.

Once again, a very small percentage of hourly employees would resort to law suits, although I'm sure the number is higher now than it was 50 years ago. Very few people fired unjustly without a grievance procedure ever get their jobs back with or without back pay or damages/loss of pay. Some will (through the courts) receive pay for damages when their constitutional rights have been infringed upon, but not when it is just a situation where a hotshot, wanna be important, flash in the pan manager wants to flex his/her muscle.

hell tex you a perty smart fella. figure out why all those companies including ups are putting in grievance process with an arbitrator at the end of the process? The grievance process gives us a means to fire people without really losing them. We don't want to lose them we just want to punish them.
I have no stats to show me that corporate America is jumping on the grievance bandwagon. I'm bettin' that the ones that do incorporate that process are either hoping that it will prevent law suits for discrimination OR their employees, both present and future, are putting pressure to get this small form of job security.

Or if we really want to fire them then we build a heck of a case through the grievance process. When the arbitrator finally agrees with a discharge then you have a case that will withstand the scutiny of the courtroom.

You surely can figure out that a case to fire someone can be put together in a much more efficient way than by hassling with arbitrators and a flow of grievances. It's been proven time and time again that given the right set of circumstances a law suit can be filled on anyone for anything. You feeling of success would be easily deflated by a jury of sympathetic people worried about the "little guy" and his family being walked on by the all powerful corporate "watchdog".

The grievance process is awesome. It allows management the opportunity to use the words "your fired" a lot more then we would if everything was going straight to the courts....

So, what you are saying here is that UPS plays games with peoples futures and their livelihood. You are saying that you not only agree with it but, you like it too. Do you practice the Donald Trump hand gesture and phrase, "You're fired" ?
Geeez I hope you don't have that same haircut.

All in all Tie, that was a nice twist, but I still aint dancin'

[UPS Lifer]

I saw the word punishment in the quote above. It may not have been used in a negative context but it got me to thinking... I never looked at punishing an individual. I always looked at disciplining them. I do understand that punishment can be a part of the discipline process and probably this is why folks look at discipline in such a negative way.

I see punishment as retribution and a way to humiliate someone into submission ....This may be strong but don't tell me that most of you have never felt that way. I certainly have! This is where we lose respect for our so called leaders.

Discipline (in the context of working at UPS) should not be made to feel like punishment. It should be designed to change behavior in such a way as to teach, train and counsel an individual; not to belittle or denigrate the person.

Maybe this is why many of our folks feel ill toward management. When we get the chance - we want to show them who is boss and make them feel subservient.

I would hope that anyone who uses punishment to change the behavior just does not understand the difference and not what I stated above.

True discipline should involve "getting your attention" to change behavior at the lowest
level of discomfort as possible.

[tieguy]

[quote=trplnkl;328285][quote=tieguy;328008]
Once again, a very small percentage of hourly employees would resort to law suits, [\quote]

TRP I think you need to reconsider that point. Todays world is a very sue happy world. Look at some of the class action lawsuits we have had. In california 5 people file and draw in every driver in the state. No one else in the state now has to prove they were damaged. Only those 5. Think about the ratio. We probably have at least what 5000 drivers in california. Yet if we wrong 5 of them we stand to lose a sizable lawsuit.

The rest of your post is buried in the quote and too much trouble to respond to.

I guarantee you this point. Look at all the time served discharges you have seen over the years. You would hear the words "your fired" a lot less if the grievance process was not there to throw them back. The grievance process is your safety net. Its also a net to bounce a misbehaving employee off of if management chooses to go that route.

[HazMatMan]

[quote=stringerman85;327829][quote=trplnkl;327822]

Originally Posted by tieguy

By the way what in the world does UPS do with all that extra billions of dollars that sit around?? Their deep pockets could pay for a lot of extra crap, Just don't....Love the corporate people

NASCAR.

[dannyboy]

If arbitration is not what corporations are looking for, then why is any agreement you sign these days a waiver of your rights to sue, and you agree to handle any disputes with arbitration??????

It is a cheap way out for the company. What the heck dont you people understand? The company can not afford to keep defending itself against lawsuits, so now any agreement that anyone enters into with them will has the "giving up your rights to sue" clause in it. Casey was just way ahead of his time is all.

d

[Griff]

[quote=tieguy;328252][quote=Griff;328208]

Originally Posted by tieguy

Like lifer said before , if you actually talked all the crap at work that you talk here you would have been fired a long time ago. I can't hear you because you're standing somewhere in the back row trying to whisper your version of hate and discontent. Ever wonder why the guy in front of you moves away from you when you start?

So you're reiterating the fact that UPS targets individuals for their union involvement for all to see again? I've already informed you and UPS lifer that this is a highly illegal practice. Apparently you believe that laws do not apply between the brick walls of UPS hubs? This disregard for the contract and law is a common trait in the always idiotic management goon.

[browniehound]

I can't believe there are 107 posts regarding this subject. Yes,there are managers and drivers that are unethical. Every company has unethical employees. We can go back and forth all day blaming managment and union employees each time.

The question then becomes is UPS an ethical company? Also, are Teamsters and ethical organization? People are people. It boils down to the orginazations themselves.

[dannyboy]

Brownie

Very good point. The problem has many faces.

When you have a mechanic that red tags cars, and UPS fires him because he will not remove the tags, and after the dust settles, he is vindicated in a court of law because the company was trying to cover up cracked frames on package cars, who is unethical?

And you have the same issues within the teamsters.

Lifer, might I continue your train of thought.

Discipline is the reaction to someone that is not doing something correctly. IT might be that the person does not know it is wrong, or has just forgotten, in otherwords
unintentional wrong doing.

Punishment is the reaction to callous disregard for failing to adjust your behaviour after being disciplined.

d

[browniehound]

Originally Posted by browniehound

The question then becomes is UPS an ethical company? Also, are Teamsters and ethical organization? People are people. It boils down to the orginazations themselves.

I meant to to say "Are the Teamsters 'an' ethical organization". I didn't catch my typo until after it was posted.

Also, Danny, it looks like you know where I'm coming from, I appreciate your opinion.

[Tony31yrs]

Ethics and management is like saying ethics and politcs in this country. Ask Elliot Spitzer. How about ethics and big business? Ask the Exxon executives justifying their outlandish profits while gas prices rise obscenely. Big business runs the world and the little guy just has to do what he can to survive the BS.

[HazMatMan]

Originally Posted by Channahon

I'm guessing UPS is delaying benefits to part timers, for just the reason you stated. Why would UPS want to contribute to benefits for an employee group who traditionally has a high turnover rate.

You may have the occasional parent looking for part time work and benefits for their families, but the usual mix of part timers are students, or young kids taking on a first job.


Tough situations for part time employees and UPS. It's all a matter of cost and benefits expense skyrocketing over the years.

The high turnover rate is going to get even higher because of the delay in benefits and the freeze (once again) in the starting pay rate for part-timers. Where will it end? Would there be a high turnover rate if say the starting pay rate was 11.00 or 12.00 dollars an hour with benefits after 3 months??

[tieguy]

[quote=Griff;328574][quote=tieguy;328252]

Originally Posted by Griff

So you're reiterating the fact that UPS targets individuals for their union involvement for all to see again? I've already informed you and UPS lifer that this is a highly illegal practice. Apparently you believe that laws do not apply between the brick walls of UPS hubs? This disregard for the contract and law is a common trait in the always idiotic management goon.

GRiff you need to work on your reading skills. the post you quoted was where I pointed out your cowardly tactic of standing in the back row and provoking others.

[Cezanne]

Considering the topic, I just saw the Ben Stein movie "Expelled". A must see for anybody interested in critical thinking. The premise of the movie is about the conflict of teaching intelligent design and it's counterpoint darwinism, very well done, highly entertaining and smart. It bought up the point about darwinism and it's concepts of the survival of the fittest and natural selection and it progressing to genetics and selective breeding under nazi germany. Consider this; the mindset of man being considered useless unless that can perform a function or benefit society has been taught in our univerisities and colleges for close to 100 years now. I knew we were in trouble about 20 years ago when the "personnel office" was changed to "the human resource department".

Just how much of current ethical business practices everywhere has been based on situational ethics and "the business of doing business". If there is no absolutes, anything goes. Just don't be caught and if caught lie with a straight face and deny everything.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Cezanne

Considering the topic, I just saw the Ben Stein movie "Expelled". A must see for anybody interested in critical thinking. The premise of the movie is about the conflict of teaching intelligent design and it's counterpoint darwinism, very well done, highly entertaining and smart. It bought up the point about darwinism and it's concepts of the survival of the fittest and natural selection and it progressing to genetics and selective breeding under nazi germany. Consider this; the mindset of man being considered useless unless that can perform a function or benefit society has been taught in our univerisities and colleges for close to 100 years now. I knew we were in trouble about 20 years ago when the "personnel office" was changed to "the human resource department".

Just how much of current ethical business practices everywhere has been based on situational ethics and "the business of doing business". If there is no absolutes, anything goes. Just don't be caught and if caught lie with a straight face and deny everything.

Hey, Congratulations! You're one of the few people who thought Expelled! had any value as a documentary .

It's currently pulling an 11% on Rotten Tomatoes (ouch!)

Even Fox News gives it the gangland beatdown:

Originally Posted by FOXNews

Ben Stein: Win His Career
After seeing a new non-fiction film starring Comedy Central’s Ben Stein, you may not only be able to win his money, but also his career.
Stein is that whiny little guy with the monotone voice that makes him seem funny and an unlikely "character" for TV appearances. But that career may be over come April 18, when a movie he co-wrote, narrates and appears in, called "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," is released.
Directed by one Nathan Frankowski, "Expelled" is a sloppy, all-over-the-place, poorly made (and not just a little boring) "expose" of the scientific community. It’s not very exciting. But it does show that Stein, who’s carved out a career selling eye drops in commercials and amusing us on sitcoms, is either completely nuts or so avaricious that he’s abandoned all good sense to make a buck.
To wit: Stein, Frankowski and pals say in "Expelled" that perfectly good scientists and educators are being stigmatized for wanting to teach their students creationism and "intelligent design" — in other words, junk science — in addition to or instead of conventionally accepted Darwinism. You see, Stein, like some other celebrities, finally has shown his true colors and they aren’t so pretty.
The gist of Stein’s involvement is: He’s outraged! He believes in God! God created the universe! How can we not avail our students of this theory? What do you mean we’re just molecules?
What the producers of this film would love, love, love is a controversy. That’s because it’s being marketed by the same people who brought us "The Passion of the Christ." They’re hoping someone will latch onto an anti-Semitism theme here, since there’s a visit to a concentration camp and the raised idea — apparently typical of the intelligent design community — that somehow the theory of evolution is so evil that it caused the Holocaust. Alas, this is such a warped premise that no one’s biting.
The whole idea of Stein, a Jew, jumping on the intelligent design bandwagon of the theory of evolution begetting the Nazis is so distasteful you wonder what in — sorry — God’s name — he was thinking when he got into this. Who cares, really, if "Expelled" is anti-Semitic? It will come and go without much fanfare.
But Stein is another matter. Can he really be amusing selling eye drops or acting like a nebbish on game shows if we now have this new insight into his thinking?
You know Ben Stein from his voice. He used it to intone Ferris Bueller’s name iconically at the beginning of that 20-year-old Matthew Broderick movie. His laconic delivery and deadpan presence have given him a benign celebrity — until now.
But this is what he wrote last fall on the "Expelled" movie Web site:
"Darwinism is still very much alive, utterly dominating biology. Despite the fact that no one has ever been able to prove the creation of a single distinct species by Darwinist means, Darwinism dominates the academy and the media. Darwinism also has not one meaningful word to say on the origins of organic life, a striking lacuna in a theory supposedly explaining life.
"Alas, Darwinism has had a far bloodier life span than Imperialism. Darwinism, perhaps mixed with Imperialism, gave us Social Darwinism, a form of racism so vicious that it countenanced the Holocaust against the Jews and mass murder of many other groups in the name of speeding along the evolutionary process."
In a word: Urgggh. Suddenly Stein is not so amusing anymore. I want my eye drops from someone else.
PS: Following "The Passion" release pattern, "Expelled" will open wide on the 18th, but mostly in rural and poor neighborhoods. It’s got just one theater in all of New York City, in Times Square, none in places like Beverly Hills or wealthier, better-educated urban neighborhoods where more "evolved" people might live.
According to the film’s Web site, the producers are in a whopping 45 theaters in North Carolina, and a mere seven in Massachusetts, 35 in Georgia, 11 in New Jersey, four in Connecticut and one in Vermont. And so on. There are huge numbers of screens in Florida and Texas taking the film, particularly seven in San Antonio. If I lived in the Deep South, I’d boycott the filmmakers for thinking of me as this gullible and unsophisticated.

I may catch it on netflix just for the entertainment value..

[Griff]

[quote=tieguy;330145][quote=Griff;328574]

Originally Posted by tieguy

GRiff you need to work on your reading skills. the post you quoted was where I pointed out your cowardly tactic of standing in the back row and provoking others.

My reading skills are superb compared to yours. I'll prove my point by asking you one question.

What is your reasoning behind claiming that I stand in the back row and allow others to do my bidding? You talk about this as if it's undisputed fact and you have video footage of me doing so.

[IWorkAsDirected]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

If arbitration is not what corporations are looking for, then why is any agreement you sign these days a waiver of your rights to sue, and you agree to handle any disputes with arbitration??????

It is a cheap way out for the company. What the heck dont you people understand? The company can not afford to keep defending itself against lawsuits, so now any agreement that anyone enters into with them will has the "giving up your rights to sue" clause in it. Casey was just way ahead of his time is all.

d

If ups can't afford defending lawsuits, then they probably can't afford fines implemented by the IRS, workman's comp, etc. Maybe they should start being more ethical in ALL of their dealings with employees, etc, it might save them money.

[feeder53]

From what I see at work, ethics is only as ethical as the least ethical person in the chain of management. It usually gets less effective as it goes down the chain also. I have stood up for some of the issues and I find that they will not try to get you for your efforts, it just falls on deaf ears. After the first person get caught in an issue and looses his position, then everyone tows the line for a while.

[Cezanne]

Originally Posted by Jones

Hey, Congratulations! You're one of the few people who thought Expelled! had any value as a documentary .

It's currently pulling an 11% on Rotten Tomatoes (ouch!)

Even Fox News gives it the gangland beatdown:


I may catch it on netflix just for the entertainment value..

In just skimming the Fox review, with it's bias and name calling pretty much validates the premise of the movie. Just depends to what side of the fence you are on this issue. I just love the part when the highly educated reviewer puts down most of middle america as poor and uneducated, and we are listening to these people to judge what movie is forth supporting. Me do think S0.