Know your safety or be disciplined?

[tourists24]

Ive noticed that this subject has come up a few times and sure enough, it has started in our center now. Id like some advice from our little enclave here as to how to approach this matter (Im a shop steward).

We have had our first discipline proceedings started on employees for not knowing everything pretty much verbatim. Up til now Ive told workers to do the best they can, but I guess Im just wondering where things go from here in other centers that are already experiencing this.

Ive already talked to our management and they insist that it is coming from over their head and they have no choice. Ive also talked to our local leadership and have an idea on their thoughts. Now I just want to hear from our cafe members.

[rod]

Check out the "Labor Relations" fourm on Trenton NJ and you will see what it is coming to.

[soberups]

It is not a condition of our employment to be able to mindlessly regurgitate acronyms and commentaries so that UPS can pretend to care about our safety.
Per the contract, we need to have a valid drivers license and a DOT card. Once we have been given seniority, UPS cannot arbitrarily impose new requirements upon us.
You can be required to start early in order to attend safety meetings. You canot be required to recite irrelevant safety babble like a trained parakeet.

[Fnix]

They were doing it here too. Then after 20 people including me were written up; a few days ago at a PCM they said they will no longer discipline us.

[dannyboy]

You know, its a shame that some pinheaded managers think that this is the way to get people to learn how to work safe. What a joke. And not at all what the union and the powers that be at UPS had intended the safety process to be.

But I guess when you have the mindset of some of the managers that they are promoting, then this is what it degrades into.

Shame, any time the company tries to start something decent, there are always those sups that over reach thier authority to make the program fail.

d

[soberups]

The only reason we even have a "safety comittee" at all is to satisfy an OSHA requirement. We work for a company that made a business decision that the life of its employee was not worth the extra $50 it cost to equip its older vehicles with a 3-point seat belt. THAT is the reality of UPS's commitment to safety. The rest is just window dressing.

[scratch]

I don't know of anyone who could quote all these safety phrases word for word. What are they going to do? Send everybody home and let the packages sit there all day? I got my 19 Year Safe Driving Award the other day (took me 24 years!) Does that mean I am not a safe worker?

[705red]

Tourist, how are they teaching the members? Are they having you come in early on safety time? Or are you expected to learn this on your own time?

If they are spending the time to train you on the clock than i suggest that you do your best, but understand not everyone learns at the same pace and not everyone can get all of this info memorized.

If you are not being payed (trained by the company on the clock) i suggest you use this as an argument. Or have the drivers start comng in early and sit in the front of the center to learn it than file an article 17 for paid for time. This should resolve your issue.

The IBT has informed us to file all warning letter protests under article 37 and 17. This is not a condition of employment.

[tourists24]

Originally Posted by 705red

Tourist, how are they teaching the members? Are they having you come in early on safety time? Or are you expected to learn this on your own time?

If they are spending the time to train you on the clock than i suggest that you do your best, but understand not everyone learns at the same pace and not everyone can get all of this info memorized.

If you are not being payed (trained by the company on the clock) i suggest you use this as an argument. Or have the drivers start comng in early and sit in the front of the center to learn it than file an article 17 for paid for time. This should resolve your issue.

Good response 705,,, so far the only training we receive is during PCM's (they do a lot of safety stuff) and they have posters all over the place. But the PCM only lasts a few minutes. This is why I have told everyone to do the best they can, but any discipline for not being perfect is excessive if we are not allowed time to prepare. I have told them that they need to allow us on the clock time to study but their only response is that we are required to know it when asked. If management continues on this course then it is going to get interesting.

[brownnblue]

Originally Posted by tourists24

Good response 705,,, so far the only training we receive is during PCM's (they do a lot of safety stuff) and they have posters all over the place. But the PCM only lasts a few minutes. This is why I have told everyone to do the best they can, but any discipline for not being perfect is excessive if we are not allowed time to prepare. I have told them that they need to allow us on the clock time to study but their only response is that we are required to know it when asked. If management continues on this course then it is going to get interesting.

Not only does that PCM only last a few minutes, but it takes place at a time when the "students" have other issues on their minds. It also takes place in a busy noisy environment not conducive to learning or education. Adding to the problem, the "teacher" is usually under the impression that fear and intimidation are the best tools for learning.

The saddest part is that at least some of the information presented is useful. Access to this information in the proper educational environment would benefit me as a driver and an employee. But that would actually take effort (and money) to set up. Education at UPS is a blueprint on how not to do it.

[deezilfuelonly]

Here was my approach when we were told that we had to know all the safety crap word for word. Each day at 1330 I would send a message that I was going over 10. When the response came back as "how can that be you only have blah blah blah???" I would simply reply that I need at least 30 min of study time in a quiet non distractful environment, such as a library to learn the required material. I told them I was ADD and dyslexic..and if they had a problem with it to call the State Commission against discrimination.....problem solved

[brownnblue]

Originally Posted by deezilfuelonly

Here was my approach when we were told that we had to know all the safety crap word for word. Each day at 1330 I would send a message that I was going over 10. When the response came back as "how can that be you only have blah blah blah???" I would simply reply that I need at least 30 min of study time in a quiet non distractful environment, such as a library to learn the required material. I told them I was ADD and dyslexic..and if they had a problem with it to call the State Commission against discrimination.....problem solved

Good idea! I'd go so far as to say that one doesn't need to have a learning disability to need a half hour of study time to learn this material; especially when you consider how the "educators" present the material in the first place. I wonder how many other Fortune 500 companies train their employees in this fashion. It's embarrassing.

[brett636]

I am just a combo air driver, and it hasn't gotten to that point for us yet. I had a prior sup hand me the safety questions and tell me to go home and fill them out. They just sat in my locker until they finally let me do it on the clock.

[ol'browneye]

We have to fill out our safety questions at least once a month, seems like more. Alot of us always put 30 minutes under "other work" as safety meeting to do them on the clock. They never bothered us with knowing them at our satelite but we just got a new CM who stressed how much we need to know them when he came out to meet us. Everybody learns differently, and I don't think writing something down off a cheat card once a month is a very good way to memorize anything. We all practice these safety steps and methods everyday at work. I don't understand the big deal on memorizing some BS just so UPS can show OSHA how safe they are.

[UpstateNYUPSer]

We do the same here, put the time under Other work, letter q-84, 30 minutes. My sup has asked me to split this up over 2 days so that I won't go over 9.5, which I don't have a problem with as I am getting paid the same (time and 1/2) whether I put it all on one day or two. This sup and I have an excellent working relationship so I had no problem with his request.

We had a Ketter audit recently and, while there were looking for the answers verbatim, the auditor that I had told me that as long as you have a solid working knowledge of the basics that you would be fine. As was stated above, some of if not most of this material is beneficial to us as drivers/inside employees so learning it may actually make us safer (better?) employees. I don't know it verbatim but do know that I can present the material in a clear, coherent manner, touching on all of the major points.

[JustTired]

Here's an idea. For those that do learn these things word for word, when asked to recite them, reel them off in a monotone robotic voice and stare straight ahead until done. Then, without moving your eyes or head side to side, turn and walk away as if in a trance.

Little victories.................................

[edd_tv]

i talked to my loader today about this. we had an audit friday and must have failed it miserably, he said the full time pre load sup had everyone meet together and go over the slips and falls and lifting and lowering verbatim. he said they were told it was part of thier job to learn it. and if they didnt hear it from the part time sups he wanted to know about it. the loader also was telling me about how the part time sups were comiing around with all the safety books having people sign for watching videos back in december. never ceases to amaze me what the company comes up with.

[island1fox]

I find many of these posts amazing. Safety methods come from all different sources --over long periods of time. Safety experts, doctors, physical therapists, unions, safety committees, and even from the drivers and loaders. Alot of effort,time,money go into the development and implementation of these methods. I often hear "The company cares nothing about safety -only profits" It sounds like alot of the prior postings care nothing about safety. I know that I will get loudmouth blowback from this post ---but when you are all alone --look into the mirror and ask yourself --" What is also part of the problem here ? That is when most people are truly honest. I believe your answer will include proper training --etc --but I truly believe you will also tell yourself that there are those who do not care. They are usually the vocal minority who feel that they speak for all the people. They don't listen or even attempt to learn safety or any other method. they know it all. Some of thes people seem to get injured many times a year -usally around the same months --hunting season, holidays etc. Bottom line if you were the owner of a business --- lets say a mowing service ---You train and train your employees of the safe methods of using the equipment---but the same employee who is always complaining --too much work, etc etc --He is the one constantly getting injured by not doing the job correctly. The person you see in the mirror will tell you the right answer ----I know that person will not tell you "dont worry its not in the contract" If you were the owner ----the person would work safely and follow methods or they would not be mowing for your company. A little common sense goes along way.

[brownnblue]

Originally Posted by island1fox

I find many of these posts amazing. Safety methods come from all different sources --over long periods of time. Safety experts, doctors, physical therapists, unions, safety committees, and even from the drivers and loaders. Alot of effort,time,money go into the development and implementation of these methods. I often hear "The company cares nothing about safety -only profits" It sounds like alot of the prior postings care nothing about safety. I know that I will get loudmouth blowback from this post ---but when you are all alone --look into the mirror and ask yourself --" What is also part of the problem here ? That is when most people are truly honest. I believe your answer will include proper training --etc --but I truly believe you will also tell yourself that there are those who do not care. They are usually the vocal minority who feel that they speak for all the people. They don't listen or even attempt to learn safety or any other method. they know it all. Some of thes people seem to get injured many times a year -usally around the same months --hunting season, holidays etc. Bottom line if you were the owner of a business --- lets say a mowing service ---You train and train your employees of the safe methods of using the equipment---but the same employee who is always complaining --too much work, etc etc --He is the one constantly getting injured by not doing the job correctly. The person you see in the mirror will tell you the right answer ----I know that person will not tell you "dont worry its not in the contract" If you were the owner ----the person would work safely and follow methods or they would not be mowing for your company. A little common sense goes along way.

Your post covered several things and was all over the board, but I will try to respond as best I can.
I don't disagree with you that there are people at many positions at UPS who don't care. I also don't disagree that there are some drivers who won't attempt to learn safety issues. However I think that the vast majority of drivers do care about their craft and want to do the best job they can.

I grossly disagree with the comment about posts in this thread not caring about safety. It seems to me the majority of complaints are about the "methods" used to implement and test the employees with this safety information. I did not read very much about the actual information itself, just the fear and intimidation methods used to have the employees get to know the safety material.

You said that a great deal of time, effort, and resources go into the development of the safety dynamics. Why then can't that be taken just one step further and giving current employees some good old fashioned classroom training to not only learn the safety methods but see how they can best be applied in the course of a workday?

I think I have mentioned this before, but I'll let you think about it again. I have a part time job umpiring and refereeing kids sports games. The classroom training I receive for this in order to keep my licenses TO UMPIRE A BALL GAME FOR EIGHT YEAR OLDS IS VASTLY SUPERIOR to any kind of training I get at UPS. If its "loudmouth blowback", so be it.

[Average at Best]

Originally Posted by island1fox

I find many of these posts amazing. Safety methods come from all different sources --over long periods of time. Saf