Driver Terminated

[sx2700]

@Brownie: I must apologize, I forget that UPS is a HUGE company with thousands of employees and there needs to be rules. I come from a small town and a small center where everyone knows and respects each other (including management). Unfortunately the people that are making decisions for us don't know us and most likely don't care to know us. The good news is the driver will most likely get his job back as there is no proof that he was responsible, could have been any one of 25 people that were there that night. So now I will get down off my soapbox and let the chips fall where they will.

[myback]

you mean you current sup had a rollaway in the past?

[Gman24]

A rollaway falls under article 52 in the Southern States contract. It is considered one of the 7 "CARDINAL SINS". Our union local REP says he hasn't seen ANYONE in our area WIN their job back for a rollaway in several years. Kinda sucks because I know 2 people at my center that have had rollaways in the past and got their job back. Guys this could happen to any of us, that's scary!!!!!

[feeder53]

It is very unfortunate that someone loose their job, but I am responsible for the safe operation of my vehicle and my workplace....I would not try to point the blame on someone else. Lets hope that that driver gets another try at it and he learns his lesson. What if the vehicle rolled away into someones yard and killed a toddler?....I do not think I could live with myself....

[Fnix]

Why dont they just send people back to the Warehouse insetad of firing them? Dont get it.

[trickpony1]

Originally Posted by myback

you mean you current sup had a rollaway in the past?

It's not uncommon for the company to promote PC drivers who have had incidents.
Years ago, my PC supe was a PC driver. He backed into a lady's ornamental brick wall knocking it completely over. He was a supe shortly thereafter.

I knew another PC driver that left his keys in the PC while he ran in real quick to make a delivery. When he came out the PC was gone. When they found it it was half empty. He got fired but hired right back in an administrative position.

"Why does this happen?", you ask. Because no one else wants to fill the vacant position so they railroad the fired PC driver into that position.

Makes ya wonder?

[The-UK-Guy]

Originally Posted by RockyRogue

Its my opinion that unless there was a mechanical failure, this guy should lose his job. I don't care what kind of past history he has. He failed to properly secure his vehicle in the parking state and the consequence should be termination. I'm sure I'll take flak for this.....-Rocky

C'mon Rocky , people make mistakes, we are not perfect. I realise this is a BIG mistake to make but no one deserves to lose their job for 1 mistake , especialy if there were no injurys involved. Im sure this driver will never let it happen again and has learned his lesson.

[xkingx]

Originally Posted by The-UK-Guy

C'mon Rocky , people make mistakes, we are not perfect. I realise this is a BIG mistake to make but no one deserves to lose their job for 1 mistake , especialy if there were no injurys involved. Im sure this driver will never let it happen again and has learned his lesson.

ITA all it takes is one roll away..be it hitting something or one catching it in time b4 the hit...you'll always recheck...

[Service Failure]

Here in San Francisco we had a guy who had two roll aways and was offered a full-time inside job instead of being terminated. I don't think someone should lose their job at UPS for it but to be allowed to be able to keep driving after the incident is a different story. I, personally still think he should be able to drive but if it were to happen twice then there shouldn't be any leniency in the disciplinary action they take. I don't hear it happen too often but here in San Francisco just about everywhere you park is a huge risk for a roll away haha. Anyways first post.

[edd_tv]

we had a driver with a roll away thru a fence. Was gaonna be fired right afterward but then that was turned into a 3 day suspension.

[Bad Gas!]

A few years back our center had four rollaways..yes four!..They were treated differently.The first guy was suspended for a week or so..he had a perfect run and gun help the company record...The second guy was fired (no-one hurt in any of these) and nevr got his job back.He had a terrible, rocky record and they were waiting for an excuse on him....The third guy was a cover driver and was sent back to the hub for 1 year..he is back driving now...#4 driver got his job back ..I believe it went to panel....Don't let your job rollaway...2 of these were automatics......On another note, I've had that truck lurching due to a old park brake-pretty scary!

[DS]

Originally Posted by Service Failure

here in San Francisco just about everywhere you park is a huge risk for a roll away haha. Anyways first post.

I BET!...I was there once and if I was a kid I wouldn't want a paper route there!Welcome to the bc SF,great first post!

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by The-UK-Guy

C'mon Rocky , people make mistakes, we are not perfect. I realise this is a BIG mistake to make but no one deserves to lose their job for 1 mistake , especialy if there were no injurys involved. Im sure this driver will never let it happen again and has learned his lesson.

True, we are human. However, as far as I'm concerned THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR LETTING A PACKAGE CAR ROLL!!! As I said, if there was a mechanical failure, I'd be singing a very different tune. In fact....I'd be the first one to walk up to that driver the day he came back, shake his hand and say, "I'm sorry. We screwed up." And that.....you won't see 99% of managers do.

Originally Posted by xkingx

ITA all it takes is one roll away..be it hitting something or one catching it in time b4 the hit...you'll always recheck...

I had one vehicle--a van--start rolling on me when I was on a learner's permit. I hadn't shifted the van into park before removing my foot from the brake. It rolled about 10 feet with my mother clutching the door handle AND holding my year old brother . Never did that again. And every time from that point forward, I made sure the car was in park and wasn't going BUDGE before I took my foot off the brakes! -Rocky

[The-UK-Guy]

Originally Posted by RockyRogue

True, we are human. However, as far as I'm concerned THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR LETTING A PACKAGE CAR ROLL!!! As I said, if there was a mechanical failure, I'd be singing a very different tune. In fact....I'd be the first one to walk up to that driver the day he came back, shake his hand and say, "I'm sorry. We screwed up." And that.....you won't see 99% of managers do.



I had one vehicle--a van--start rolling on me when I was on a learner's permit. I hadn't shifted the van into park before removing my foot from the brake. It rolled about 10 feet with my mother clutching the door handle AND holding my year old brother . Never did that again. And every time from that point forward, I made sure the car was in park and wasn't going BUDGE before I took my foot off the brakes! -Rocky

I can think of many excuses your car may roll away, for one , how about you dropped your can of budweiser out the door while backing up a ramp and it was the last of the 12 pack you had before lunch. there would be no time to put the brake on you would HAVE to jump out of the truck immediatly so you didnt spill any of the amber nectar.

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by The-UK-Guy

I can think of many excuses your car may roll away, for one , how about you dropped your can of budweiser out the door while backing up a ramp and it was the last of the 12 pack you had before lunch. there would be no time to put the brake on you would HAVE to jump out of the truck immediatly so you didnt spill any of the amber nectar.

LOL, UK-Guy. That might be a legit excuse....IF I lived in the rural South (which I don't) and drink and drive (which I'll kill somebody for doing if they hurt one of my loved ones while driving drunk). And I've NEVER abandoned my seat. If I'm responsible for the car, I don't leave it til its secure. I made that mistake once. I won't make it again. And for your information, I was 17 at the time of the incident I described above, had NEVER had a drink AND had been up for 15 hours straight, driving for about 7 of those hours. No....it was a case of driver fatigue and inexperience. -Rocky

[soberups]

I have had one start to roll on me---it was an old 600 that had no compression left in the motor, and when I was getting out my knee bumped the spring-loaded parking brake and released it. I had it in gear but with no compression it started rolling anyway. Fortunately I was still in the car and was able to secure it.

[probellringer]

i dont know...maybe its me with the "new school" mentality-but--if you look at all the new trucks with auto trannys-dont think they got this problem-we really need to start putting $ toward new trucks-im not saying a/c,navigation ,sunroof,bose stereo,sat.radio.....BUT how bout updating the fleet alittle more frequently-i bet the insurance money we would save by having airbags and real seatbelts would offset it---....but theres nothing like rolling up to a resi---people come running out like kids to mr.softee----they hear our trucks miles away....it is so funny-the sound of the exhaust is unique....anyway....what was i saying?

[sx2700]

Originally Posted by soberups

I have had one start to roll on me---it was an old 600 that had no compression left in the motor, and when I was getting out my knee bumped the spring-loaded parking brake and released it. I had it in gear but with no compression it started rolling anyway. Fortunately I was still in the car and was able to secure it.

An excellent point. I bet very few on here can deny that happening to them. From what I've seen in my center 75% of the package cars on the road should have been sent to the crusher many moons ago.

[kene1024]

Originally Posted by sx2700

An excellent point. I bet very few on here can deny that happening to them. From what I've seen in my center 75% of the package cars on the road should have been sent to the crusher many moons ago.

I have joked with my driver for a year about hearing him coming no matter where in the house I am....just by the sound of his brakes. The screeching metal-on-metal sound doesn't seem right, but he says the mechanic tells him the truck is OK.

[Senor Forum]

SX2700 - you aren't in Austin by any chance, are you?

[sx2700]

Originally Posted by Senor Forum

SX2700 - you aren't in Austin by any chance, are you?

No, but I'd bet a $100 bill that it is standard UPS operating procedure.

Those old Ford 223 straight 6's had a whine that only dogs could hear. They would start running for the road when you were still half a mile away. The early 70's p600 is still one of the greatest cars ever. Would plow their own road in the snow. Wooden bulkhead doors don't rattle. And if you had a good mechanic, you could get an admittedly hair raising 75-80 MPH.

[moontheloon1982]

I had a roll-away in an automatic 1300. It rolled about 4 feet at about a half a mile an hour.,so slowly that I couldnt feel it moving while I was in the back sorting packages. The shifter was broken on the car. It didnt always lock into park, so sometimes youd try to start it and nothing would happen until you pulled it down through the gears and then back up again. I wrote it up in my DVIR the first time it happened and the shop said they could not find a defective part to replace on the shifter and then did nothing else about it. when the roll away happened I again insisted that the shifter had malfunctioned, only to have the notion dismissed by a manager who thought I was just making up stories trying to save my own skin. Ispection of the vehicle found again no defective parts. I was basiclly called a liar and suspended for a week. The same car was back on the road the next day. That week another driver came back from a stop,turned the key and found it wouldn't start because it wasnt in park. This driver hadn't been made aware that the possibility of a defect even exsisted . Luckily he wasn't parked on an incline or it would have been another, possibly deadly, roll-away accident.
The driver wrote it up that day. the car was then pulled and the whole shifter assembly replaced. Of course it was my fault for not writing up the failing parking brake, but you never expect an automatic to roll away. It just doesnt happen.
It was just gross neglegence for the sup to let the car back on the road the next day after having been told and shown it was unsafe.

[stevetheupsguy]

Originally Posted by UpstateNYUPSer

We had a roll away at my center before I began working there and he is now my on-car sup (no, I am not kidding).

We had a driver back up out of the building without fully opening the rollup door, He's now our OnCar.

Originally Posted by Big Babooba

Chock blocks are required by the DOT. I never take a truck out if I find them missing during the pretrip. Our shop has extras. I have used them at times. Some companies require that all delivery vehicles be chocked.

Like Home Depot, to name one.

Originally Posted by brownIEman

Why is it that you believe firing a driver for losing control of his vehicle is chicken excrement? More importantly, what would you suggest management do in such a situation? A verbal reprimand? A slap on the wrist?

If the company where to offer less than serious consequences for this sort of thing, what do you suppose would happen in court when a run away package car DOES find a stroller?

I see you are quick to cast aspersions at the company for reacting in a harsh manner to a serious situation, and yet are just as quick to get very defensive when someone casts aspersions and the driver who lost control of his vehicle.

And yes, thank God, there was no stroller in this incident. The point however stands, there just as easily could have been, which would lead to someone being dead based on the driver taking the exact same actions as what he did.

In this situation, it is of paramount importance that this incident be taken very seriously, and be shown to be taken very seriously. What sort of message does it send to younger drivers if failing to secure ones vehicle is treated lightly? Or even with less than the utmost of serious consequences?

Speaking as a member of management and a stockholder, the best outcome, IMHO, would be that he stews out of work for a couple weeks, gets reinstated at panels, and comes back to work with a renewed appreciation for the need to secure the vehicle at all times.

Originally Posted by sx2700

And the debate goes on......Management and hourly employees will never see eye to eye. Everything is Black or White to management. This scenario could have played out a 1000 different ways but to you there is only one solution. How can you justify potentially ruining a guys life on "what if"? Because all that matters is some numbers on paper and the bottom line. Who cares about one individual? Somebody else will certainly step right up and take his place and the job will get done.

Originally Posted by brownIEman

Nice diatribe. Does not really further the debate or answer my question, but nice never the less.

When did I ever say there was only one possible solution? I offered one, that I thought was a good one, I never said that was the only one. Now, I do admit, I only offered one possible solution. But I will point out, that is one more than you have yet offered.

I have no desire to ruin anyone’s life. And again, as a member of management and stock holder I hope this 20 year, highly skilled and motivated employee returns to work. Someone with that level of experience cannot just be replaced by the next guy to step up. However, as a member of management I have a responsibility to the company, its other employee’s and the public not to allow unsafe behavior. The more unsafe the behavior, the greater the response needs to be to correct that behavior.

Letting a package car go rolling on down the road with no one at the wheel is an extremely unsafe behavior. Perhaps we could at least agree on that?

So let me ask you, hypothetically, if you were this drivers boss, what would you consider to be an appropriate discipline for this behavior?

Originally Posted by sx2700

Thank you for the condescension. You are right diatribe is a more fitting term than debate seeing as how there is no debating with management. The best answer I can give you as to what I would do is: I would fill out the accident report and have a conversation with the guy to get a better grasp of his state of mind and the circumstances involved then come up with a reasonable solution. But then what do I know? After all I am just a peon and my opinion certainly doesn't mean anything to anybody but me. BTW I just started this thread to get some information on the issue. I surely could have used a more proper term than "chicken***t" in my original post and for that I apologize. But I still think the termination was an extreme reaction to this particular situation, again just my opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by brownIEman

You are correct; my opening in my last post was condescending in tone. That was not really my intent. I was shooting just for a bit of humorous sarcasm. I hate condescension, bothers me no end when it is done to me, so it is only worse when I catch myself doing it. I apologize, and I appreciate you calling me on it.

As far as debating with management; All I can say is, managers are people like everybody else. They have a job to do, responsibilities, and constraints placed on them. Some are so hard headed they cannot be reasoned with. Most are not.
Remember, however, just because someone in management does not immediately agree with you does not mean they are unreasonable. I will give you an example from my own personal experience. I was working one peak as a helper coordinator, and I needed to assign a helper to a driver who had not yet hit heavy peak levels of volume. The reason I needed to do this, was that I was having helpers quit left and right. I also knew that in about a week the entire center was going to explode with volume. I would need helpers readily available, and with experience so they would actually be a help, not a hindrance to their drivers. I told the driver he would get a helper, and just to use the kid for a couple hours. The driver explained he did not need a helper, and did not want one. I tried explaining the need to get them hours and experience so they would stay. The debate went on until I ran out of time before start time and I had to pull the work as directed card. Now, in this drivers mind, I was totally unreasonable and would not listen to him just another insensitive management person.

Thanks for your reply to my question. I actually do like your approach to this situation, and, it might be the one I would use were I running my own business or perhaps working in a non-union company. That said, the trouble with taking these sorts of incidents on a case by case basis is that it leaves the management person open to charges of favoritism. The rigidity in management/hourly relations created by the contract is a double edged sword, and has positives and negatives for both. No, I am not a mindless union basher, I am well aware the positives for hourly predominate. One of the negatives though, is that it gives management no leeway in dealing less severely with someone we know is a good employee that just messed up than with an employee who just doesn’t care, given the same behavior.

In any event, as has been said, in many cases like these the firing does not stick and the driver does indeed get his job back. Based on the information you have provided, I would guess that is what will happen with your friend, and I hope for his sake that is what happens.

Props to both of you guys for not letting this get out of hand like the Obama thing. You both made wonderful points and IE was grown up enough to own up to his condescension as well as a good point made. This really proves that we can talk things out. You are both right, go figure. And may this thread serve as a reminder and prevent roll aways to all who read. Guess I should have checked the dates, though all of the above still applies.

As far as those 1200/1300's I think this is a nationwide problem. I drove one with a similar problem.

[moontheloon1982]

Originally Posted by stevetheupsguy

We had a driver back up out of the building without fully opening the rollup door, He's now our OnCar.



Like Home Depot, to name one.











Props to both of you guys for not letting this get out of hand like the Obama thing. You both made wonderful points and IE was grown up enough to own up to his condescension as well as a good point made. This really proves that we can talk things out. You are both right, go figure. And may this thread serve as a reminder and prevent roll aways to all who read. Guess I should have checked the dates, though all of the above still applies.

As far as those 1200/1300's I think this is a nationwide problem. I drove one with a similar problem.

are you referring to the shifter problem on the 1200's?