Driver Terminated - Brown Cafe

sx2700 · 04-22-2008, 09:04 PM

We had a driver fired today because his car rolled away on him and hit something. We were told that a roll away is automatic termination written in the contract. Anybody here have any experience or heard of anything with this type of situation? It sounds like the hearing will be a couple weeks from now so hopefully everything works out for him. The guys been with the company for a long time and as far as I know has an excellent record otherwise. Seems to me like a chicken***t reason to fire a guy, but nothing UPS does surprises me much.

helenofcalifornia · 04-22-2008, 09:18 PM

We had a guy in our center with a roll away and he was suspended for four weeks. Shouldn't lose his job, but probably will be suspended.

broncobros1 · 04-22-2008, 09:24 PM

So you think that termination for a roll aways is chick

:cens ored:? What if there was a lady with a stroller? Would you feel the same way? I know that the training for the new drivers states that it is an automatic dismissal for the same thing....not in control of the vehicle or something. I also believe that most DMV's will automatically DQ for that.

soberups · 04-22-2008, 09:26 PM

We have had a couple of rollaways on our center and it was the same deal---the company tries to scare them with a termination, but it doesnt get upheld at panel.

RockyRogue · 04-22-2008, 09:30 PM

Its my opinion that unless there was a mechanical failure, this guy should lose his job. I don't care what kind of past history he has. He failed to properly secure his vehicle in the parking state and the consequence should be termination. I'm sure I'll take flak for this.....-Rocky

dannyboy · 04-22-2008, 09:31 PM

Be careful about making statements about never being upheld at the panel.

As for roll aways, it is a serious accident in UPS's eyes. And it should be for us all. And it does happen more times than you might think.

In our center, we have had several roll aways, and one driver even has had three. But there was one that did lose his job over it. So be aware, while the track record sorta shows that in most cases you should get your job back after several weeks off, its not something you want to bet on.

d

Baba gounj · 04-22-2008, 09:41 PM

I know of two recent rollaways; (1) the vehicle rolled into another parked vehicle totally ruining it, that driver still has a job ( driving ) & (2 ) the vehicle rolled into a house, that employee was told he can never drive again, and works on our full time preload shift. Neither lost more than a few weeks off.

filthpig · 04-23-2008, 01:51 AM

We recently had this happen here. The driver was fired and got his job back after 3 or 4 weeks. Every time this has happened that I am aware of, the driver has lost his job but usually gotten it back. One case where the driver didn't get his job back was because he didn't call it in.

UpstateNYUPSer · 04-23-2008, 04:15 AM

We had a roll away at my center before I began working there and he is now my on-car sup (no, I am not kidding).

trplnkl · 04-23-2008, 05:04 AM

Sometimes there are facts to a story that we all do not know. In my case, when I had a roll away my termination was done outside of the guide lines. Meaning that I was able to retain my employment (with a 10 working day suspension) due to a technicality. I had gotten my mind set for a follow up of daily harassment, but it never came. I had a one day ride when I returned to work and that was it.
IMHO, any roll away deserves punishment simply because, #1. To have one, minus a vehicle malfunction, more than one rule has to be violated. #2, an uncontrolled vehicle is dangerous beyond belief. I DO NOT feel (obviously) that one should automatically be terminated. This is a situational punishment, IMO. Let the punishment fit the crime.

BTW, in my case the only damage was to a small tree that was about to be removed anyway. The guy that was to remove it said he wished I had hit the other one right next to it also, so he wouldn't have to dig so much.

DorkHead · 04-23-2008, 05:16 AM

I drive a P800 with no transmission lock like all the new autos have so I also make sure my driver`s door is also closed so no person ( teen or kid) can walk by and disengage my hand brake. I know the truck is in gear and shouldn`t move but better to be safe than sorry. If they can`t see it they most likely won`t think of doing it.

JustTired · 04-23-2008, 05:26 AM

I haven't had a rollaway, but I have gotten out of the car and heard a noise, turned around to see my vehicle sorta lurching forward. I was parked on an incline and (with car in gear and handbrake on) it would just not hold. Had I not noticed and walked into a business, I'm sure I would have come out to a surprise. I actually had to get back in and reposition the vehicle before I could make the delivery.

The handbrakes in many of these vehicles are a joke. You write them up and maybe (after being adjusted) they work for a day or two. It's usually not the mechanics fault. Just too little brake for the amount of weight it has to hold.

I'm amazed at how many rollaways there seems to be nationwide. Well, maybe not considering the above case and the pressure to get done at a decent time.

trickpony1 · 04-23-2008, 06:26 AM

I've seen the driver of a well known soft drink company chock the drive axle wheels of his 10 wheeler every time he stops to make a delivery. Maybe our company should require us to carry a set of chocks and chock the drive axle at every stop.
OOPS!......but wait......that would cut into the drivers SPORH. We can't have that.
So much for safety.

mattwtrs · 04-23-2008, 07:00 AM

In my area I have noticed that all USPS carriers park with their front wheels curbed even when on a perfectly level surface. Now if some of them would only walk at a normal pace & not like a snail!

Big Babooba · 04-23-2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UpstateNYUPSer

We had a roll away at my center before I began working there and he is now my on-car sup (no, I am not kidding).

We had the same situation here years ago. He is retired now.

Big Babooba · 04-23-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickpony1

I've seen the driver of a well known soft drink company chock the drive axle wheels of his 10 wheeler every time he stops to make a delivery. Maybe our company should require us to carry a set of chocks and chock the drive axle at every stop.
OOPS!......but wait......that would cut into the drivers SPORH. We can't have that.
So much for safety.

Chock blocks are required by the DOT. I never take a truck out if I find them missing during the pretrip. Our shop has extras. I have used them at times. Some companies require that all delivery vehicles be chocked.

trickpony1 · 04-23-2008, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Babooba

Chock blocks are required by the DOT. I never take a truck out if I find them missing during the pretrip. Our shop has extras.

If what you say is true then "our" company is breaking yet another law. But then that doesn't surprise me. Overweight triples pull out of my hub all the time and the enforcement agencies look the other way.

I guess that's what happens when "our" company snuggles up with the powers that be to mutually "benefit" both parties.

sx2700 · 04-23-2008, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncobros1

So you think that termination for a roll aways is chick

:cens ored:? What if there was a lady with a stroller? Would you feel the same way? I know that the training for the new drivers states that it is an automatic dismissal for the same thing....not in control of the vehicle or something. I also believe that most DMV's will automatically DQ for that.

I'm glad that you are the perfect human being, congratulations. First of all there was no lady with a stroller. Now consider that the guy has over 20 years with no other problems, you really think an automatic termination is appropriate? I hope you get the same sympathy when something happens to you and you're on here looking for support. Good luck to you, I hope you stay under the radar until retirement.

raceanoncr · 04-23-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sx2700

We had a driver fired today because his car rolled away on him and hit something. We were told that a roll away is automatic termination written in the contract. Anybody here have any experience or heard of anything with this type of situation? It sounds like the hearing will be a couple weeks from now so hopefully everything works out for him. The guys been with the company for a long time and as far as I know has an excellent record otherwise. Seems to me like a chicken***t reason to fire a guy, but nothing UPS does surprises me much.

In the Central Region Supplemental Agreement section of the National Master United Parcel Service Agreement, it states, under Article 17:

"...be given a local level hearing except for the following offenses.
(g) an avoidable runaway accident.

I'm sure other regions have the same or similar lanquage in their supplements so it looks like a runaway is always a termination. Never mind the "avoidable" because it seems like everything is now deemed "avoidable" nowadays.

However, as has been posted and threaded here in BC and what seems to be consensus is that every center, hub, panel, JAC meeting is different. In other words, it depends on who is sitting on the panel (both sides), who YOU are, what kind of performance you have turned in to date, what kind of management team you have, etc.

You can contact people from 100 different hubs and get 100 different examples of some that were permenantly terminated and some that were "temporarily" terminated, some that were merely suspended, for a day, for a week, month, whatever.

It's not a sure thing. You friend could get his job back, he could not. Just hope that he does, if that's what he wants.

brownIEman · 04-23-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sx2700

I'm glad that you are the perfect human being, congratulations. First of all there was no lady with a stroller. Now consider that the guy has over 20 years with no other problems, you really think an automatic termination is appropriate? I hope you get the same sympathy when something happens to you and you're on here looking for support. Good luck to you, I hope you stay under the radar until retirement.

Why is it that you believe firing a driver for losing control of his vehicle is chicken excrement? More importantly, what would you suggest management do in such a situation? A verbal reprimand? A slap on the wrist?

If the company where to offer less than serious consequences for this sort of thing, what do you suppose would happen in court when a run away package car DOES find a stroller?

I see you are quick to cast aspersions at the company for reacting in a harsh manner to a serious situation, and yet are just as quick to get very defensive when someone casts aspersions and the driver who lost control of his vehicle.

And yes, thank God, there was no stroller in this incident. The point however stands, there just as easily could have been, which would lead to someone being dead based on the driver taking the exact same actions as what he did.

In this situation, it is of paramount importance that this incident be taken very seriously, and be shown to be taken very seriously. What sort of message does it send to younger drivers if failing to secure ones vehicle is treated lightly? Or even with less than the utmost of serious consequences?

Speaking as a member of management and a stockholder, the best outcome, IMHO, would be that he stews out of work for a couple weeks, gets reinstated at panels, and comes back to work with a renewed appreciation for the need to secure the vehicle at all times.

sx2700 · 04-23-2008, 11:26 AM

And the debate goes on......Management and hourly employees will never see eye to eye. Everything is Black or White to management. This scenario could have played out a 1000 different ways but to you there is only one solution. How can you justify potentially ruining a guys life on "what if"? Because all that matters is some numbers on paper and the bottom line. Who cares about one individual? Somebody else will certainly step right up and take his place and the job will get done.

brownIEman · 04-23-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sx2700

And the debate goes on......Management and hourly employees will never see eye to eye. Everything is Black or White to management. This scenario could have played out a 1000 different ways but to you there is only one solution. How can you justify potentially ruining a guys life on "what if"? Because all that matters is some numbers on paper and the bottom line. Who cares about one individual? Somebody else will certainly step right up and take his place and the job will get done.

Nice diatribe. Does not really further the debate or answer my question, but nice never the less.

When did I ever say there was only one possible solution? I offered one, that I thought was a good one, I never said that was the only one. Now, I do admit, I only offered one possible solution. But I will point out, that is one more than you have yet offered.

I have no desire to ruin anyone’s life. And again, as a member of management and stock holder I hope this 20 year, highly skilled and motivated employee returns to work. Someone with that level of experience cannot just be replaced by the next guy to step up. However, as a member of management I have a responsibility to the company, its other employee’s and the public not to allow unsafe behavior. The more unsafe the behavior, the greater the response needs to be to correct that behavior.

Letting a package car go rolling on down the road with no one at the wheel is an extremely unsafe behavior. Perhaps we could at least agree on that?

So let me ask you, hypothetically, if you were this drivers boss, what would you consider to be an appropriate discipline for this behavior?

sx2700 · 04-23-2008, 01:21 PM

Thank you for the condescension. You are right diatribe is a more fitting term than debate seeing as how there is no debating with management. The best answer I can give you as to what I would do is: I would fill out the accident report and have a conversation with the guy to get a better grasp of his state of mind and the circumstances involved then come up with a reasonable solution. But then what do I know? After all I am just a peon and my opinion certainly doesn't mean anything to anybody but me. BTW I just started this thread to get some information on the issue. I surely could have used a more proper term than "chicken***t" in my original post and for that I apologize. But I still think the termination was an extreme reaction to this particular situation, again just my opinion on the matter.

brownIEman · 04-23-2008, 02:35 PM

You are correct; my opening in my last post was condescending in tone. That was not really my intent. I was shooting just for a bit of humorous sarcasm. I hate condescension, bothers me no end when it is done to me, so it is only worse when I catch myself doing it. I apologize, and I appreciate you calling me on it.

As far as debating with management; All I can say is, managers are people like everybody else. They have a job to do, responsibilities, and constraints placed on them. Some are so hard headed they cannot be reasoned with. Most are not.
Remember, however, just because someone in management does not immediately agree with you does not mean they are unreasonable. I will give you an example from my own personal experience. I was working one peak as a helper coordinator, and I needed to assign a helper to a driver who had not yet hit heavy peak levels of volume. The reason I needed to do this, was that I was having helpers quit left and right. I also knew that in about a week the entire center was going to explode with volume. I would need helpers readily available, and with experience so they would actually be a help, not a hindrance to their drivers. I told the driver he would get a helper, and just to use the kid for a couple hours. The driver explained he did not need a helper, and did not want one. I tried explaining the need to get them hours and experience so they would stay. The debate went on until I ran out of time before start time and I had to pull the work as directed card. Now, in this drivers mind, I was totally unreasonable and would not listen to him just another insensitive management person.

Thanks for your reply to my question. I actually do like your approach to this situation, and, it might be the one I would use were I running my own business or perhaps working in a non-union company. That said, the trouble with taking these sorts of incidents on a case by case basis is that it leaves the management person open to charges of favoritism. The rigidity in management/hourly relations created by the contract is a double edged sword, and has positives and negatives for both. No, I am not a mindless union basher, I am well aware the positives for hourly predominate. One of the negatives though, is that it gives management no leeway in dealing less severely with someone we know is a good employee that just messed up than with an employee who just doesn’t care, given the same behavior.

In any event, as has been said, in many cases like these the firing does not stick and the driver does indeed get his job back. Based on the information you have provided, I would guess that is what will happen with your friend, and I hope for his sake that is what happens.

scratch · 04-23-2008, 02:57 PM

We had a driver in my work group who had a roll away. He parked in a McDonalds and went in to eat lunch. The P7 rolled out into a six lane intersection and hit a car driven by a pregnant woman. Luckily, she wasn't hurt. He was fired but got his job back when it went to Panel. Shortly after, he had to enter a Rehab Program because he would drink at least a twelve pack after work every night. He would come to work in the morning with beer on his breath. Roll Aways are serious and should be treated as such. I have had my Car start rolling away twice on me over the years. I was able to stop it both times. Its a terrible feeling to see that thing start rolling with nobody in it. I never knew I could run that fast!