UPS and biodiesel

satellitedriver · 05-20-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moreluck

Gas may only be .29 in Carracas, but I'd rather pay the $4 a gallon than to trade in our sewer system and other modern conviences. Have you seen the shacks there stacked on top of each other with open pipes flowing down on the property below?? Terrible poverty and unsanitary conditions.

US citizens do not have a clue.
My uncle is in a grave in Caracas.
Luckily, his 80yr old wife and their children, and grandchildren are safe in America.
Legally, BTW.

1989 · 05-20-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UpstateNYUPSer

To add to that, I believe it is only $.29/gallon in Venezuela.

several countries subsidize gas for their citizens. The fact is there is a shortage. A supply of 85 million barrels and a demand of 87 million barrels a day. Oil will hit $150 by the end of the year.

upsgrunt · 05-20-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1989

several countries subsidize gas for their citizens. The fact is there is a shortage. A supply of 85 million barrels and a demand of 87 million barrels a day. Oil will hit $150 by the end of the year.

My sources tell me it will top off at about $135 and then be $90 to $95 by November. My sources are gas speculators- take it or leave it.

alister · 05-20-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldworld

A little off subject here but is there a car that you can buy that can run on batteries alone? If not, what would be the biggest hangup for a car company to start making and selling these types of vehicles, especially for a daily to work and back car.

There is one called the tesla roadster.
100% electric
0 - 60 in 3.9 secs
13,000 rpm redline
~135 mpg
220 miles per charge
and its only starts at $100,000

there used to be a video of it beating a Ferrari in a quarter mile but i cant seem to find it now

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Mike Hawk · 05-20-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alister

~135 mpg

Gallons of what?

alister · 05-20-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Hawk

Gallons of what?

its a Equivalent Petroleum Fuel Efficiency comparison. wiki talks about it on their web page. it ranges from 35mpg to 350mpg depending on how you compare it to a gas engine. the web page probably does a better job explaining it than i will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

UpstateNYUPSer · 05-21-2008, 04:06 AM

I was reading today's paper and there was a story regarding theft of used cooking oil which can be converted into biofuel. What used to be a commodity that restaurants had to pay to get rid of is now a highly valued commodity that people are willing to risk prosecution to steal. We are also experiencing a rash of catalytic converters being stolen right off of parked vehicles and then brought to the scrap yard to be sold for cash.

How many of you are old enough to remember the gas lines during the '70s where rationing and odd/even system were used, fights were common and shortages were rampant? There are some experts who seem to think that we may be in line to repeat these, if not this year, then certainly next.

More, I agree--if given the choice, I would gladly pay the $4/gal.

feeder53 · 05-21-2008, 07:12 AM

I`ll bet the food prices at those places will drop because they can sell the used oil.........And I remember the even/odd gas lines of the 70s, If I remember correctly,I had commercial plates and could get gas on any day IF they had it. There used to be people pushing their cars in the lines as they ran out of gas waiting.....Was not pretty.

UpstateNYUPSer · 05-22-2008, 02:45 PM

Diesel just crossed the $5/gal mark here in Plattsburgh today.

soberups · 05-22-2008, 09:41 PM

I hope it gets to $200 a barrel and $8 or $9 a gallon. Seriously. The reality is that we could produce ALL our own fuel from algae, soy, and other renewable resources if we were willing to invest the $$. Renewable fuels cannot compete with cheap oil, but if the cost of imported crude keeps climbing it will force us to start making better choices. I made a choice 2 years ago to drive a car that gets almost 40 MPG on biodiesel, I have no sympathy at all for someone who chose to pay 30 grand for a full-sized SUV and now complains about the cost of fueling it.

upsgrunt · 05-23-2008, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberups

I hope it gets to $200 a barrel and $8 or $9 a gallon. Seriously. The reality is that we could produce ALL our own fuel from algae, soy, and other renewable resources if we were willing to invest the $$. Renewable fuels cannot compete with cheap oil, but if the cost of imported crude keeps climbing it will force us to start making better choices. I made a choice 2 years ago to drive a car that gets almost 40 MPG on biodiesel, I have no sympathy at all for someone who chose to pay 30 grand for a full-sized SUV and now complains about the cost of fueling it.

And what do you think the price of biodiesel is going to do when the demand for that starts going up? Do you realize how much water is used to process ethanol? I think it is like 2 gallons for every gallon of ethanol that is produced. Water is too precious of a commodity to be wasted to get a ratio like that. Sober you talk a big talk a lot of the time while at the same time condemning others that don't align with you. In reality, you are no better, or smarter than any of us. I'm not trying to rag, but come down and talk with us instead of at us.

pretzel_man · 05-23-2008, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberups

I hope it gets to $200 a barrel and $8 or $9 a gallon. Seriously. The reality is that we could produce ALL our own fuel from algae, soy, and other renewable resources if we were willing to invest the $$. Renewable fuels cannot compete with cheap oil, but if the cost of imported crude keeps climbing it will force us to start making better choices. I made a choice 2 years ago to drive a car that gets almost 40 MPG on biodiesel, I have no sympathy at all for someone who chose to pay 30 grand for a full-sized SUV and now complains about the cost of fueling it.

Sober,

I think its an important and interesting topic. However, I attended a conference recently and reviewed some research on biofuel.

I don't remember all the details, but the conclusion from the university research was that about 17% of our needs could be met with biofuel.

They also analyzed the efficiency of soy vs. corn. Corn was a clear winner in the amount of resources needed to produce fuel.

I think another question will be how much land and water we can devote to biofuel. If resources (land / water) are used for fuel, will this impact food prices.

Who knows, this demand may make farming profitable again.

P-Man

alister · 05-23-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Sober,

I think its an important and interesting topic. However, I attended a conference recently and reviewed some research on biofuel.

I don't remember all the details, but the conclusion from the university research was that about 17% of our needs could be met with biofuel.

They also analyzed the efficiency of soy vs. corn. Corn was a clear winner in the amount of resources needed to produce fuel.

I think another question will be how much land and water we can devote to biofuel. If resources (land / water) are used for fuel, will this impact food prices.

Who knows, this demand may make farming profitable again.

P-Man

I have a herd a lot about switchgrass being used for biofuel. It is suppose to have a better energy ratio (energy in to energy out) than corn and it can be grown on land that is not favorable for other crops. it also uses water more efficiently than corn.

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html

soberups · 05-23-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Sober,

I think its an important and interesting topic. However, I attended a conference recently and reviewed some research on biofuel.

I don't remember all the details, but the conclusion from the university research was that about 17% of our needs could be met with biofuel.

They also analyzed the efficiency of soy vs. corn. Corn was a clear winner in the amount of resources needed to produce fuel.

I think another question will be how much land and water we can devote to biofuel. If resources (land / water) are used for fuel, will this impact food prices.

Who knows, this demand may make farming profitable again.

P-Man

Biofuels from agricultural products are a dead end. The real solution is biodiesel produced from algae. Algae can be farmed in the desert, using brackish water or even untreated sewage. It wouldn't require arable land and it doesnt have to compete with food.
The problem is one of economics. It is still cheaper to drill for oil...although if the cost of a military occupation in Iraq is factored in it really isnt any cheaper, its just that those costs are not being borne by the end consumer of the fuel but are intead being passed onto future generations in the form of debt.
If fossil fuel were taxed to pay for our military and eliminate the federal deficit, it could cost $8 or $9 a gallon. This would allow biofuels to compete on a level playing field. Combine that with a switch to diesel-electric hybrid vehicles that get 50-60 MPG, and we could be energy independent.
This technology already exists. It is simlply a matter of making it economically viable. Whether we like it or not, oil will run out one day. We need to start making changes now.

soberups · 05-23-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upsgrunt

Do you realize how much water is used to process ethanol? I think it is like 2 gallons for every gallon of ethanol that is produced. Water is too precious of a commodity to be wasted to get a ratio like that.

We get about 1/3 of our oil from Canada, a large portion of which is produced from the tar sands of Alberta. It takes about 7 barrels of water to produce a barrel of oil from the tar sands. Water is too precious of a commodity to be wasted to get a ratio like that.
www.tarsandswatch.org

soberups · 05-23-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upsgrunt

Sober you talk a big talk a lot of the time while at the same time condemning others that don't align with you. In reality, you are no better, or smarter than any of us. I'm not trying to rag, but come down and talk with us instead of at us.

I'm not condemning anybody. If you want to drive a 10 MPG SUV, that is your business. I believe in freedom of choice...but choices come with consequences and spending $200 to fill the tank on a hummer ought to be one of them. We in America have developed an entitlement mentality towards cheap limitless energy, and that mentality is going to have to change. The oil is going to run out. Its not a question of if, only a question of when.

rod · 05-24-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberups

We get about 1/3 of our oil from Canada, a large portion of which is produced from the tar sands of Alberta. It takes about 7 barrels of water to produce a barrel of oil from the tar sands. Water is too precious of a commodity to be wasted to get a ratio like that.
www.tarsandswatch.org

What is really wasteful is the amount of fossil fuel required to produce a gallon of ethanol

pretzel_man · 05-24-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberups

Biofuels from agricultural products are a dead end. The real solution is biodiesel produced from algae. Algae can be farmed in the desert, using brackish water or even untreated sewage. It wouldn't require arable land and it doesnt have to compete with food.
The problem is one of economics. It is still cheaper to drill for oil...although if the cost of a military occupation in Iraq is factored in it really isnt any cheaper, its just that those costs are not being borne by the end consumer of the fuel but are intead being passed onto future generations in the form of debt.
If fossil fuel were taxed to pay for our military and eliminate the federal deficit, it could cost $8 or $9 a gallon. This would allow biofuels to compete on a level playing field. Combine that with a switch to diesel-electric hybrid vehicles that get 50-60 MPG, and we could be energy independent.
This technology already exists. It is simlply a matter of making it economically viable. Whether we like it or not, oil will run out one day. We need to start making changes now.

For the sake of our kids, I hope you're right.

P-Man

coldworld · 05-24-2008, 09:49 AM

does anyone have a prias. there are a few videos on youtube where there are companies that modify the batteries in these toyotas and they are getting 100mpg. Has anyone seen this???

soberups · 05-24-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rod

What is really wasteful is the amount of fossil fuel required to produce a gallon of ethanol

That is because we are going about it the wrong way. Corn is a horribly inefficient way to make ethanol, but the corn lobby in Washington is quite powerful. Hemp and switchgrass are far better crops for this purpose, they use far less water, and they can be grown in rotation with other crops to avoid depleting the soil...but those crops dont have a congressional lobby.
One thing to bear in mind however is that the majority of corn grown in this country is actually used for cattle feed. If you feed a cow raw corn it digests the starch and protien and