Insubordination!!!!!

WhatPCM · 07-01-2008, 12:15 PM

OK I will start off by setting up the situation for you all: One belt for my tiny little center. I am loading at the end of the building where they have added on to it with rollers set up. I have a few boxes on the rollers its around 8 A.M. I have realized that the outlet mall that i load isn't getting enough to have the trailer along with it. I had about 20 or so in the trailer. Now on the other side of the rollers was a real mess. The loader was getting his butt handed to him all morning long. It had at this point become backed up to the next set of trucks. Belt was being shut off, rung looking for help. All mgnt did was look and start the belt back up. Eventually the f/t sup comes down and says to me "get over hear and help him clean up his side." I simply replied "No. I have the trailer that needs to be moved over and I am still getting more, can't you get some one to come down from unload to help. That way we both wont get backed up." He then came down to right infront of me and stated that I will listen to him I will go over and help I will not be insubordinate and if i dont i will be sent home. I calmly said to him that it doesn't make much sense because its only going to get worse down here if i stop doing what i am doing and go help him. So he then said as he was walking away " I'll send you home, terminate you, and have you go under investigation for insubordination." Yes i did go over and help him out. Yes my side became backed up just as far within a couple of minutes. I didn't leave till very late. My question is: Is insubordination a real rule? Is it something that i can be fired for? Can the f/t sup get in my face like that? i personally think it was all BS and i dont like the way i was treated. Any feedback would be grateful. Sorry for the long post everyone.

ikoi62 · 07-01-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Is insubordination a real rule?

yes
Just work as directed if things get messed up..it wont be your fault,you were told what to do by a supervisor.
can he get in your face..
whats in your face? was he a inch from your face or a foot or more? if he was a inch then No.

feeder53 · 07-01-2008, 12:42 PM

If it were me, I would work as directed, and let him find out on his own that there were issues. When we step into that zone, we put ourselves at risk and they get to blame it on us because we did not work as directed. You want me here.....OK here I am.......

MonavieLeaker · 07-01-2008, 12:47 PM

It states in the contract that you must work as directed

brownIEman · 07-01-2008, 12:56 PM

You can be disciplined for refusing to work as directed, or as he refered to it insubordination which amounts to the same thing. The getting in you face was likely not needed. Were I his manager I would have coached him on dealing with his people had I witnessed such a scene. However, at the end of the day, he is the one responsible for what happens in the opperation, and there well could be legitimate reasons why pulling someone from the unload was not the best solution, and it could be that allowing your area to get backed up, while not desirable, was the least of the bad options available to him.

Bottom line, when I direct an hourly to work on something, if I get pushback, I always listen to the reasons for not wanting to do what I am asking of them. After all, they know the job in most cases as well or better than I. If I cannot agree with their alternatives for one reason for another I will give, time permiting, reasons why I cannot. But at the end of the day, it is my call, as it is my hiney on the line if the wrong path is followed and things go in the sh#$ter...

drewed · 07-01-2008, 01:00 PM

youre not paid to think, youre paid to lug boxes.....i had the same problem with one of employees i simply asked him am i asking you to do something unsafe? no, then good lets get it done

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonavieLeaker

It states in the contract that you must work as directed

outamyway · 07-01-2008, 01:12 PM

He could have been nicer about it. I would have said no at first too. I don't care who you are you don't talk to me like that.

dannyboy · 07-01-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Eventually the f/t sup comes down and says to me "get over hear and help him clean up his side." I simply replied "No

I have seen the conversation end right there, and you would be trying to get your job back at the panel. Unless it is unsafe to do what he tells you, under the contract, you are to do what he says. Period. The minute you simply replied no, you were refusing to work as instructed, so hit the door. He would have been within his right.

As far as getting in your face, as IE said, that is a bit more than he should have done, but I would think that it beats him calling security and escorting your off the property.

So, yes, under the contract, you were insubordinate. And he could have terminated you for it, and let you fight to get your job back.

So guide yourself accordingly next time.

Outa, you want them to say "get over hear and help him clean up his side" more nicely? What, you want him to add pretty please? Geez

d

WhatPCM · 07-01-2008, 01:34 PM

Thank you everyone. just really need to vent. I didn't like the way everything went down.

Storm723 · 07-01-2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownIEman

Bottom line, when I direct an hourly to work on something, if I get pushback, I always listen to the reasons for not wanting to do what I am asking of them. After all, they know the job in most cases as well or better than I. If I cannot agree with their alternatives for one reason for another I will give, time permiting, reasons why I cannot. But at the end of the day, it is my call, as it is my hiney on the line if the wrong path is followed and things go in the sh#...

I agree 100 %...

drewed · 07-01-2008, 02:56 PM

Well to me, it seems both of you were frustrated with the situation and both over step your bounds in the atittude dept so you both deserve the blame. No is a 4 letter word to a supervisor, youre bringing their authority into question when you said it; if you would have said well is there anyone else that can help bc im gonna get dumped on if i help? you know he probably still would have said no and had you do it but....atleast you asked as opposed to pissing of your sup
`For listening to employees opinions, ive pissed off several because im not gonna drop everything, and im not gonna have you drop everything to talk about something; if you believe what im asking is unsafe thats one things, if you wanna complain someone is lacking talk to me before or after the sort, ill take care of it.
Personally, if id been the ft sup in this situation once you talked back, we would have been having a meeting with your steward... Its his job to make decisions and adjustments based on observations (and he should have an open ear to opinions)

cachsux · 07-01-2008, 02:57 PM

Work as directed unless it is 1)illegal 2) unsafe 3)immoral. Beyond that let the ball be in there court. You can suggest something or point out something the sup may have missed but otherwise do what they ask,cover your ass,and stand aside if the poop hits the fan.

kwed95 · 07-01-2008, 03:11 PM

gotta work as directed as long as you aren't put in any danger...used that one a few times before

outamyway · 07-01-2008, 04:38 PM

There's a difference between asking someone to do something and demanding it. I got the tone like the sup was telling whatPCM to do it and projecting it toward him as if it was his fault the guy on the other side of the belt was getting backed up.

No I don't need a pretty please. But don't come at me like I already did something wrong. Asking someone to do something will get a lot more respect than demanding it. We're not in the Marines.

dillweed · 07-01-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatPCM

Thank you everyone. just really need to vent. I didn't like the way everything went down.

We all need to vent and this is a good place to do it. As you can see, there are differing opinions. Years of experience have taught me to just do what they say and let the chips fall. Yes, I have also told them that it were damned stupid while I was doing it but I was working like heck while saying it. Lately I just sigh, smile and say OK. Pays the same and I may get some extra time from going back to clean up my own area.

Sups also have pressures that many of us aren't aware of. I can hear our cm yelling at the pt sups over the radios to do this, do that, why is that being done, hey, get this done, what ARE you doing??? All this at the same time that pkgs are coming at a frantic pace, all employees are stacked and angry. Then there are the after-sort conference calls where some the bigwig sits in an air conditioned office, looks at a computer screen and bitches about the numbers he sees. I'd just as soon be out on the floor sweating my rear off doing whatever they say best I can. Leave and forget it ever happened.

Relax, kick back and be glad the day is over. Holiday weeks are stressful because we're all ready for the day off. You only have 2 more days of the BS before the long weekend.

PassYouBy · 07-01-2008, 07:26 PM

I have to agree with Dillweed....

Try loading 7 trucks at the same time your unloading the feeders (Impossible you say...Nah, its just a BIG PAIN IN THE A%$ when you come back out of the feeder to see that your boxes have been "stacked" for you so you can unload them in the truck). This happens about once every two months when a few of the lazy a%$ workers decided there not coming in after a night of drinking. Makes EVERYONE suffer. I just do what I'm asked to do, then I go home and enjoy the rest of my day.

dannyboy · 07-01-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Asking someone to do something will get a lot more respect than demanding it. We're not in the Marines.

Why should the sup ask you to do anything. It is his job to supervise and TELL you what he wants you to do. Geez, you are acting like you are doing a sup a favor when he tells you to do something.

When the sup told him to help across the belt, it was not a suggestion, it was not just a good idea, it was an instruction to do what the sup wanted done. Right or wrong, that is what the employee is supposed to do. Period.

When you ask someone to do something, that leaves the whole subject open to discussion, or personal interpretation, something the sup was not interested in doing.

Like I said, seen several "no's" end up as terminations and suspensions.

No place in the contract does it say the sup has to ask you to do something. It just says you will work as instructed. IF you cant handle that, then maybe you ought to ask the teamsters to change the language for you.

d

outamyway · 07-01-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyboy

Why should the sup ask you to do anything. It is his job to supervise and TELL you what he wants you to do. Geez, you are acting like you are doing a sup a favor when he tells you to do something.

When the sup told him to help across the belt, it was not a suggestion, it was not just a good idea, it was an instruction to do what the sup wanted done. Right or wrong, that is what the employee is supposed to do. Period.

When you ask someone to do something, that leaves the whole subject open to discussion, or personal interpretation, something the sup was not interested in doing.

Like I said, seen several "no's" end up as terminations and suspensions.

No place in the contract does it say the sup has to ask you to do something. It just says you will work as instructed. IF you cant handle that, then maybe you ought to ask the teamsters to change the language for you.

d

Like I said, it seemed to me the sup was being an Ahole. I don't like people telling me what to do, I certainly wouldn't let an Aholes tell me what to do, contract or not. I have no respect for supervisors treating employees like garbage.

Doesn't it say in the contract that supervisor should treat employees with respect? Oh, that's right, management can violate the contract when ever they feel fit to do so.

tieguy · 07-01-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outamyway

Like I said, it seemed to me the sup was being an Ahole. I don't like people telling me what to do, I certainly wouldn't let an Aholes tell me what to do, contract or not. I have no respect for supervisors treating employees like garbage.

it sounds like the initial exchange was not one of disrespect. Sup tells you to help the guy on the other side? His right to do so he bears the responsibility if its a bad decision.

I don't want to diminish your importance to the operation but at that time and that place its his job to move the workforce as he sees fit and its your job to comply with his request barring any safety issues.

Your refusal to comply is grounds for immediate discharge. Instead of being pissed at him for how he talked to you , you should thank him for not firing you. Unless you wanted to get fired?

New Englander · 07-02-2008, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tieguy

it sounds like the initial exchange was not one of disrespect. Sup tells you to help the guy on the other side? His right to do so he bears the responsibility if its a bad decision.

I don't want to diminish your importance to the operation but at that time and that place its his job to move the workforce as he sees fit and its your job to comply with his request barring any safety issues.

Your refusal to comply is grounds for immediate discharge. Instead of being pissed at him for how he talked to you , you should thank him for not firing you. Unless you wanted to get fired?

Yeah, because in the real world UPS is so fire happy with preloaders. Especially with the way they are just breaking the door down to get hired!

Get real, your not going to get fired on a first offense.

Now I'm not saying not to work as directed but I question stupid work assignments all the time as a driver. We all do. Usually involves the part time dispatch supervisor who has absolutely no area knowledge making stupid add/cuts.

UPS crowing achievement was taking dispatch out of the onroads hands.