What is L.P. thinking?

[trplnkl]

Originally Posted by The Other Side

Red, my friend, your intentions may be right in your heart, but wrong in application.

ANYTHING you may have heard at PANEL would be HEARSAY and NOT admissible in a court of law. UPS itself would have to come in and testify as to WHAT they said, WHY they said it and you could not communicate this for them.

I think, and this is my personal observation, your in way over your head.

No matter what was said at a panel hearing, remember, there is law to consider, not just your feelings.

At panel, there is no sworn testimony, no witnesses, no video or audio and no stenographer. The person in question was NOT under oath at panel and neither YOU or the Local business agent can TESTIFY for him.

I know you want to help him out and all, but dont you think this is rather silly to invest this much effort in?

You yourself said there was a PLEA agreement offered? Well, what was it? Was it for a reduced charge of possession?

What circumstance did the prosecutor use to file a felony charge? What have you left out that we dont know? Why would the DA offer a plea agreement if the guy disputed UPS's charge with a PROVEABLE alibi?

What has this guy told a court so far? Why was the case postponed?

How do you expect to be a witness for him if all you have is hearsay evidence? This will never be allowed.

I dont want to throw out a bunch of legal terms and latin phrases to you, but I have one in mind I would like you to learn:

fate accompli-an accomplished fact; a thing already done: The enemy's defeat was a fait accompli long before the formal surrender.

Your man knew he was purchasing an expensive cell phone from a former employee who was known to have stolen merchandise from the company before and recently arrested and fired. This FACT sealed his fate.

You cannot ignore that someone would "knowlingly" purchase an expensive cell phone at a huge discount and NOT know it was probably stolen.

The relationship between the seller and your man "suggests" that they had a close relationship, one built on trust, and it could be suggested that your man was in on it the whole time.

Why would a "former" employee, recently arrested and fired from UPS approach your man and offer to sell him a phone out of the blue, unless your man knew the inside scoop on the phone to begin with.

Your man claims to be innocent, yet, pays the seller $100 in a parking lot of the very employer where the phone was stolen and takes it into LP for a property pass and not having the brains to know that LP would write down the serial number and other identifiable info from the phone and match it up with a database of stolen merchandise.

This is not something an innocent man does, its something a thief would do who believed he got something for nothing.

An innocent man would decline to buy the phone, contact UPS and report a former employee trying to sell phones in the parking lot.

All that baloney about helping out his family and needing food and stuff...yeah right.

I dont buy it. It makes no sense at all.

If your man had a reasonable alibi, I am sure the DA would not prosecute.

But, the fact that he was offered a plea deal, suggests on the surface that there is more to this story than your telling us.

I hope you have more evidence than pounding on your chest.

Well, with some of the "facts" that you state here it is plain to see that either you failed to read what has been posted about this case or you don't understand what you read or you would rather ignore what has been presented. Get YOUR facts straight.

[dannyboy]

tos

t said it well

but let me just point out why. take the first deduction you make past your inability to actually believe strongly in something.......oh wait, you do believe strongly, just in a lot of the wrong stuff.

ANYTHING you may have heard at PANEL would be HEARSAY and NOT admissible in a court of law. UPS itself would have to come in and testify as to WHAT they said, WHY they said it and you could not communicate this for them.

you are assuming that ups was the only one there? the union was not at the panel? ups is the only one that actually knows what was said, and the poor union is just to stupid to be able to testify. and what would make reds testimony hearsay, and not that of the company? he was there. he has the paperwork that declared him not guilty. so why would you think that only ups could give testimony, but everyone elses would be hearsay.

see what i am saying. you throw around all those neato legal terms, but you really have no idea as to the legal application in this case.

9.5, did i ever say that he is not guilty of possession? but that is not what we are dealing with here.

as to the lesser charges, i would take a serious guess that the charge of possession was not one that was offered. my guess is that lesser charges than felony theft, but still theft were offered, and that is why they were refused.

tie, you are correct, i have seen a lot of thieves at ups. some were even pretty close to me, people i saw every day, went out to eat with, etc.

but i have also seen the misuse of that power that is delegated to the lp department. lazy people (maybe just over worked) that do not attempt to do the proper investigation, but instead jump to a lot of conclusions that are not borne out by the proof. much like tos's post above. maybe this, and if that, and when this could have happened, and bingo, we have enough "proof" to have him arrested and jailed.

i think you will need to have a little more faith in the guys at the panel. they very much understand the guy screwed up. did something that was bone headed and wrong. and putting him back to work without backpay is a clear warning that he did do wrong. kinda the corp version of taking him out behind the woodshed (that ought to sooth the savage 9.5).

d

[over9five]

I guess my feeling is that you should throw people who buy stolen property into jail. This would send a message to other people who would buy stolen property.
If the people who actually steal the stuff have no-one to sell it to, I see crime dropping. (No reason to steal it if no-one will buy it from you because they'll go to jail).

This guy gets off, the only message he gets is "it's OK to buy stolen property".

It's not OK with me.

[dilligaf]

Come on Over, being gullible isn't a crime. He might need to be slapped upside the head, but go to jail? You and Daniel (Daniel, go read Driver helper) need to have a little tolerance. As do some others.

[The Other Side]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

tos

t said it well

but let me just point out why. take the first deduction you make past your inability to actually believe strongly in something.......oh wait, you do believe strongly, just in a lot of the wrong stuff.



you are assuming that ups was the only one there? the union was not at the panel? ups is the only one that actually knows what was said, and the poor union is just to stupid to be able to testify. and what would make reds testimony hearsay, and not that of the company? he was there. he has the paperwork that declared him not guilty. so why would you think that only ups could give testimony, but everyone elses would be hearsay.

see what i am saying. you throw around all those neato legal terms, but you really have no idea as to the legal application in this case.

9.5, did i ever say that he is not guilty of possession? but that is not what we are dealing with here.

as to the lesser charges, i would take a serious guess that the charge of possession was not one that was offered. my guess is that lesser charges than felony theft, but still theft were offered, and that is why they were refused.

tie, you are correct, i have seen a lot of thieves at ups. some were even pretty close to me, people i saw every day, went out to eat with, etc.

but i have also seen the misuse of that power that is delegated to the lp department. lazy people (maybe just over worked) that do not attempt to do the proper investigation, but instead jump to a lot of conclusions that are not borne out by the proof. much like tos's post above. maybe this, and if that, and when this could have happened, and bingo, we have enough "proof" to have him arrested and jailed.

i think you will need to have a little more faith in the guys at the panel. they very much understand the guy screwed up. did something that was bone headed and wrong. and putting him back to work without backpay is a clear warning that he did do wrong. kinda the corp version of taking him out behind the woodshed (that ought to sooth the savage 9.5).

d

Ahh Danny,

How far shall I break this down for you. As I said before to you on this case. You have to take your personal emotional feelings out of the equation and use the facts at hand.

Here it is again. A panel hearing is NOT A TRIAL. There is NO SWORN TESTIMONY, NO WITNESSES, NO VIDEO, NO AUDIO, no RECORDED TESTIMONY. The only thing RED could testify to, would be what HE said only. Everything else would be HEARSAY.

A Union agreement can NEVER, EVER circumvent STATE or LOCAL LAW.

No matter what the outcome of three union guys and three company guys (panel), the COMPANY can still pursue its LEGAL options in this case.

There is NOTHING in the NMA that PRECLUDES the company from excersising its legal options.

Now, I guarantee you that the panel hearing did not "DECLARE HIM NOT GUILTY" and RED will NOT have any such ruling or finding in writing.

What a panel does is hear both sides in approximately 10 mins each side.

Then it votes on each sides position. The majority rules. Now, this is not to say a person is INNOCENT. Its to determine if rules were followed and the contract violated. Now, without seeing the record, I cannot guess as to why the panel ruled to re-instate him to the job. There is "innocent until proven guilty" language in our NMA, and maybe the company just did not have enough to convince the panel that the termination met this standard.

I believe this is what may have been ruled, but that does not make him INNOCENT.

The company, because of its limited search and seizure restrictions can differ any investigation to the local authorities in all cases. Because the State has the power to supoena, search and interogate, its more likely to get to the truth of the matter, and I am sure this is what UPS wants to find out.

With millions of dollars in losses each month, getting to the source of theft is what is intended.

We all have a stake in the company being protected from theft. If this young man is a bigger part of an internal theft ring, then by all means, look up his keister with a microscope for all I care.

But, dont bring tears to the case.

He's in possession of a stolen phone, stolen from his employer, stolen by a known thief previously fired for stealing, sold in the very parking lot of the very company that it was stolen from, sold to a "friend" of the thief comfortable enough to know that he will NOT be turned in and for a price less than rediculous to be an honest sale.

What more needs to be said?

Danny, like I said, there are many things to consider, one of them is another latin term:

CAVEAT EMPTOR

Main Entry: caveat emp·tor Pronunciation: \-ˈem(p)-tər, -ˌtȯr\ Function: noun Etymology: New Latin, let the buyer beware Date: 1523 : a principle in commerce: without a warranty the buyer takes the risk

This is what the young man in question did. He took the risk, now he faces a criminal charge.

Another poster said it correctly, make him an example for others, buying stolen merchandise does not pay. Finding this young man not guilty would only make it ok for others to steal and sell company merchandise to each other with impunity.

[dannyboy]

I believe this is what may have been ruled, but that does not make him INNOCENT

nope, you are right. it makes him guilty. thats why they brought him back to work

i am not dealing with emotion and tears as you so eloquently suggest. i am taking the cold hard facts as they have been presented here, and drawn my conclusions from them

There is "innocent until proven guilty" language in our NMA, and maybe the company just did not have enough to convince the panel that the termination met this standard.

yup, that pesky little part of our rights under the constitution. innocent until proven guilty. problem is, you seem to think the other way around. he is guilty of theft, without any proof to back it up. the company had the time to process all the information it had, it could have, if they felt it important enough, to have the state authorities investigate further if their abilities were not sufficient.

but they did not. so either the proof into the charge of theft by this employee did not exist, or they were too damn lazy to uncover it. my guess is the first.

so, under the constitution and the contract, the company failed to prove its charges to a reasonable degree of certainty, therefore they had to let him go back to work. which is the way it should be. you are Innocent until it is proven you are guilty.

kinda funny, so many of the ones that would argue about the guilt of this guy, and how he should be in jail are the same ones that would argue that the guys in gitmo are just innocents on their way to get married or out with the guys on a family vacation.

you are forgetting the simple concept of due process. and until his day in court, he is Innocent until proven guilty of felony theft. that is also why we have the executions after the trials instead of before them.

now, if you are bent on making examples of a industry that would impact theft, lets arrest every one that owns or works at a pawn shop, flea market, used goods stores, ebay, etc. without the mass ability to turn goods into cash, theives would not steal, right? so regardless of guilt or inocence, but to make a statement, lets just take them all to jail without a trial or hearing because they are all guilty.

yes, that does make a lot of sense.

d

[705red]

Tos you are all over the place! Please reread the entire thread and gather the correct information and than repost. Im not going to hold you hand and walk you trough it when its already spelled out for you.

[Hoaxster]

Originally Posted by 705red

Tos you are all over the place! Please reread the entire thread and gather the correct information and than repost. Im not going to hold you hand and walk you trough it when its already spelled out for you.

I had a strong feeling as I had been reading all his political posts over the last two months that his rambling, unfocused discourses were a pattern that would not be confined to politics.

[dannyboy]

i have a brother that is a die hard liberal democrat.

he is much like t in that he takes a stand, then develops the basis for his stand (regardless how stupid or crazy) from what he thinks is the truth and fact. very interesting the concepts he thinks he knows as fact, but the spin he puts on them is totally off base.

at least t has some time to actually do some research or at the very least takes the time to look up terminology.

as for my brother, hes just plain stupid.

d

[pemanager]

Originally Posted by 705red

Well today was his court date and after spending 15 minutes at court the case was continued to dec 3rd. Nothing really happened at all, just some legal mumbo jumbo so until dec,3rd.

Red,

Any updates??

[MonavieLeaker]

Originally Posted by pemanager

Red,

Any updates??

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by pemanager

Red,

Any updates??

bump.

???

[atatbl]

again

[Holly]

Folks wake up and smell the coffee! I am no expert by I do have friends who are in Law Enforcement.

First of all from reading the board you do not have all the facts on this case nor do you have knowledge on the background of this case. They may have informant information they have been working on as well as video surveillance and other facts that LP is not going to give you the information on because it is none of your business!

The accused will never tell you the truth, it's always woe's me! When someone is caught out they are always going to protect themselves from any type of punishment- loss of a employment, loss of wages, criminal record, court cost, and punishment as a result of their actions.

Mean while his hand was caught in the cookie jar! Do you really think that the Police Officer that attended and his Superiors would actually proceed with a criminal charge if there was not a lot of evidence to support this matter? To file a criminal case the officer has to go through a lot of paperwork and he has to explain his actions as well as the evidence to a lot of people, including other officers, lawyers and the judge. No-one is going to proceed with a charge unless there is sufficient evidence.

Unless you know the background, and the history of the case presented to you by LP or the Police you will not know what the facts are that brought them to the conclusion of pressing charges. Don't forget the Police department as well as UPS has to justify their actions to the courts as there are more laws out there to protect the accused then the victim!


At UPS Canada – an employee can be taken out of Service by his Supervisor on the recommendation of LP. Before and employee is terminated the case has to be reviewed by LP’s Regional and District Manager, then through Labour Relations and Legal! Think that one through!

I have read in many of the comments that there is a Panel? Who are the Panel? What are the members function and powers?

I tell employees before they think about stealing anything from anyone or buying property that you believe is stolen you must think this through and not to do it on impulse.
If you get caught stealing or with stolen property, you have just lost five years of your life and gained five years of stress and embarrassment. LP is going to parade you in front of your colleagues, to make an example out of you. Think of the embarrassment and shame you face as you tell your loved ones you need their help because you no longer have a job because you got caught sealing or caught with stolen property or involved in a crime. You will now be facing criminal charges, you may spend the next two to three years going through the criminal court process. That $200.00 phone you just stole and got caught with is now going to cost you anywhere between $10, 000 to $30 000 thousand dollars in lawyer and legal cost. So say good bye to any vacations you have planned not only for the loss income and money you are forking out for your defence, but because in some countries like the USA they will not let you pass the boarder with a criminal record. Then once your case goes before the courts for final sentencing, you may have another six-week to two years to complete your sentence through community service or time served. To boot you may have to pay a fine to top it off which you may not be able to pay because who is going to want to hire a thief!

[705red]

I am sorry for not responding as i did not notice pe and monavie's posts. There is a lot going on right now and as soon as everything has concluded i will be the first to describe all that has played out. Should be feburary 19th! Hang in its intereating!

[UPS Lifer]

When it comes to theft, stealing, or dishonesty, I have no tolerance especially if the facts and evidence support it. In a major hub environment, dealing with drugs and theft are a daily uphill battle for all who will not condone it.

I have listened to hundreds of stories most with tears and crying for me to give them another chance. I tell them "you have another chance to start your life over, every time you feel the urge to slide backward think of this day... but you no longer work at UPS"

I do not know the full circumstances, but based on the initial post - I feel that you get what you deserve. I am sorry but there is no way I believe that the receiver of stolen goods did not know what was going on! What better way to make your case of ignorance than by trying to register the phone for a property pass.

I could just hear the conversation....
"I did not know it was stolen! I would not have registered the phone if I knew!"
What a crock of crap!

Personally - I don't care how they (UPS or police) get the guy or what they charge him with as long as they get him. If the judicial system allows him to go free so be it. I personally think it will get to a plea bargain. .... if he does not plea bargain, it is because of his arrogance in his "Academy Award" performance not because he is innocent.

Sorry - I have seen way too much of this and when it comes to theft, I am very jaded and I lack tolerance in this area.


I had an employee give an "Academy Award" performance on how he did not steal a jersey. This guy was crying and everything. He was extremely believable.

Here is the catch, unaware to the thief another employee watched him sneak the jersey out of the box, put it under his shirt and go directly to a bathroom stall. The employee who observed followed him to the bathroom and then notified a supervisor. We brought the employee to the office and didn't let him out of our sight. The steward wanted to talk with him alone. It was the only time I said absolutely not! You can have a conversation with the thief but we need to keep him in sight. I told the steward what was going on.

The steward said that he would get the employee to resign and get the jersey back. I agreed and we allowed the steward privacy with the employee and it played out.

As far as 705 goes.... I also appreciate your concern and compassion for this person. Everyone is allowed a defense and I respect your stand.

You just don't want me on the jury! LOL!

I do know this... If it were my employee I would want to know what the reason was that UPS was taking it to trial. Because I really don't know what the reasoning is... I can't take a stand one way or the other whether it is right or wrong.

[IWorkAsDirected]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

really? here it is 299 with the two year signing plan.

have yet to see where they are free. care to send me some info on a blackberry for free?

then that also poses the second question. of you can get it for free, why would someone want to sell it for 300, and the guy pay 100?

d

Verizon has them.

[MonavieLeaker]

Originally Posted by 705red

I am sorry for not responding as i did not notice pe and monavie's posts. There is a lot going on right now and as soon as everything has concluded i will be the first to describe all that has played out. Should be feburary 19th! Hang in its intereating!

Thanks for the update

[stevetheupsguy]

Originally Posted by Holly

Folks wake up and smell the coffee! I am no expert by I do have friends who are in Law Enforcement.

First of all from reading the board you do not have all the facts on this case nor do you have knowledge on the background of this case. They may have informant information they have been working on as well as video surveillance and other facts that LP is not going to give you the information on because it is none of your business!

The accused will never tell you the truth, it's always woe's me! When someone is caught out they are always going to protect themselves from any type of punishment- loss of a employment, loss of wages, criminal record, court cost, and punishment as a result of their actions.

Mean while his hand was caught in the cookie jar! Do you really think that the Police Officer that attended and his Superiors would actually proceed with a criminal charge if there was not a lot of evidence to support this matter? To file a criminal case the officer has to go through a lot of paperwork and he has to explain his actions as well as the evidence to a lot of people, including other officers, lawyers and the judge. No-one is going to proceed with a charge unless there is sufficient evidence.

Unless you know the background, and the history of the case presented to you by LP or the Police you will not know what the facts are that brought them to the conclusion of pressing charges. Don't forget the Police department as well as UPS has to justify their actions to the courts as there are more laws out there to protect the accused then the victim!


At UPS Canada – an employee can be taken out of Service by his Supervisor on the recommendation of LP. Before and employee is terminated the case has to be reviewed by LP’s Regional and District Manager, then through Labour Relations and Legal! Think that one through!

I have read in many of the comments that there is a Panel? Who are the Panel? What are the members function and powers?

I tell employees before they think about stealing anything from anyone or buying property that you believe is stolen you must think this through and not to do it on impulse.
If you get caught stealing or with stolen property, you have just lost five years of your life and gained five years of stress and embarrassment. LP is going to parade you in front of your colleagues, to make an example out of you. Think of the embarrassment and shame you face as you tell your loved ones you need their help because you no longer have a job because you got caught sealing or caught with stolen property or involved in a crime. You will now be facing criminal charges, you may spend the next two to three years going through the criminal court process. That $200.00 phone you just stole and got caught with is now going to cost you anywhere between $10, 000 to $30 000 thousand dollars in lawyer and legal cost. So say good bye to any vacations you have planned not only for the loss income and money you are forking out for your defence, but because in some countries like the USA they will not let you pass the boarder with a criminal record. Then once your case goes before the courts for final sentencing, you may have another six-week to two years to complete your sentence through community service or time served. To boot you may have to pay a fine to top it off which you may not be able to pay because who is going to want to hire a thief!

You sure did have a lot to say in that first post. Welcome to the Brown Cafe.

[MonavieLeaker]

Originally Posted by Holly

Folks wake up and smell the coffee! I am no expert by I do have friends who are in Law Enforcement.

First of all from reading the board you do not have all the facts on this case nor do you have knowledge on the background of this case. They may have informant information they have been working on as well as video surveillance and other facts that LP is not going to give you the information on because it is none of your business!

The accused will never tell you the truth, it's always woe's me! When someone is caught out they are always going to protect themselves from any type of punishment- loss of a employment, loss of wages, criminal record, court cost, and punishment as a result of their actions.

Mean while his hand was caught in the cookie jar! Do you really think that the Police Officer that attended and his Superiors would actually proceed with a criminal charge if there was not a lot of evidence to support this matter? To file a criminal case the officer has to go through a lot of paperwork and he has to explain his actions as well as the evidence to a lot of people, including other officers, lawyers and the judge. No-one is going to proceed with a charge unless there is sufficient evidence.

Unless you know the background, and the history of the case presented to you by LP or the Police you will not know what the facts are that brought them to the conclusion of pressing charges. Don't forget the Police department as well as UPS has to justify their actions to the courts as there are more laws out there to protect the accused then the victim!


At UPS Canada – an employee can be taken out of Service by his Supervisor on the recommendation of LP. Before and employee is terminated the case has to be reviewed by LP’s Regional and District Manager, then through Labour Relations and Legal! Think that one through!

I have read in many of the comments that there is a Panel? Who are the Panel? What are the members function and powers?

I tell employees before they think about stealing anything from anyone or buying property that you believe is stolen you must think this through and not to do it on impulse.
If you get caught stealing or with stolen property, you have just lost five years of your life and gained five years of stress and embarrassment. LP is going to parade you in front of your colleagues, to make an example out of you. Think of the embarrassment and shame you face as you tell your loved ones you need their help because you no longer have a job because you got caught sealing or caught with stolen property or involved in a crime. You will now be facing criminal charges, you may spend the next two to three years going through the criminal court process. That $200.00 phone you just stole and got caught with is now going to cost you anywhere between $10, 000 to $30 000 thousand dollars in lawyer and legal cost. So say good bye to any vacations you have planned not only for the loss income and money you are forking out for your defence, but because in some countries like the USA they will not let you pass the boarder with a criminal record. Then once your case goes before the courts for final sentencing, you may have another six-week to two years to complete your sentence through community service or time served. To boot you may have to pay a fine to top it off which you may not be able to pay because who is going to want to hire a thief!

[pemanager]

Originally Posted by 705red

I am sorry for not responding as i did not notice pe and monavie's posts. There is a lot going on right now and as soon as everything has concluded i will be the first to describe all that has played out. Should be feburary 19th! Hang in its intereating!

Red,

The suspense is killing me!

[705red]

Continued to march! Hang in there!

[trplnkl]

[dilligaf]

.....and the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round

and the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...............................















he he he he is the tune stuck in your head now!?!?!?!

[705red]

OK here we go! I have not wanted to post on this because management does read this and some of you are to dam good! You guys have helped management in some cases argue their side, so i choose to wait so i wasn't preparing a case against ups and my fellow cafer's.

Long story short. The grievant in this case was fired from his full time job because of attendance for having to take time off for court. On January 20th under the advice of his public defender he accepted a plea agreement and plead guilty and was put on probation.

On January 22nd he was again fired by ups for the same incident. He was scheduled for panel in February. The same day of his panel hearing he also had his first probation meeting, which he was late to. The p.o. had him arrested and incarcerated for a week for being late. He was unable to make it to panel or notify us.

We the union took a union hold on the case in February. Yesterday was panel and the grievant made it. Now remember we now having a sitting arbitrator to expediter the discipline cases. His case was heard and it was deadlocked by the panel. The company had made it clear that he was scheduled for panel last month and had not made so they were not responsible for his lost wages.

The arbitrator ruled that he would return to his next scheduled shift with no back pay.

Finally thie employee can now move on with his life and get this behind him.

You can not discipline an employee twice for the same incident! Its called double jeopardy!

This was the first termination case that i presented at panel, and i will take my hats off to any union agent that does do the right thing by the members! Preparing this case was time consuming with research and reading arbitration rulings and legal definitions, etc.

These guys earn every penny they make!