What is L.P. thinking?

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by soberups

Lets break this whole thing down to the basics;

1. The employee was NOT caught stealing. He bought a phone which later proved to be stolen by a different employee, who had NOT yet been caught or accused of theft.

we don't know that for sure. we do know he says he bought it brand new at a 75 percent discount.

1. The employee voluntarily registered the phone...with serial#....with the Loss Prevention department of the company from whom he supposedly stole it.

never suspecting he would get caught. Thieves have done dumber things.

1. Posession of stolen goods is not in and of itself a crime. The burden of proof rests with the prosecution to prove that you KNEW it was stolen. There must be criminal intent. If you buy a ring at a pawnshop or used jewelry store, and the ring is subsequently proven to have been stolen, you are not guilty of a crime.

possession of a stolen goods is a crime.

1. A grievance panel...composed of equal union AND management representatives...decided to give this employee his job back.

company has to prove he stole it. Almost impossible to do unless you get an eye witness who is non union to provide a statement.

1. Upon what basis then....does a company pursue criminal charges against an employee who has been determined by a panel of its own representatives to be NOT GUILTY of the crime?

company does not pursue charges. this is not a civil case. The DA looks at the evidence and decides to prosecute if the evidence is there. The real question here is why is the DA pursuing this lowly theft case against this guy. There must be some pretty damning evidence.

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by tieguy

company has to prove he stole it. Almost impossible to do unless you get an eye witness who is non union to provide a statement.

For the record, if I saw somebody stealing from my company, it wouldn't matter if I was Union or not. I'd still give that statement. Traitor? Maybe. Bad idea? Probably. But I HATE thieves! -Rocky

[cachsux]

Thank You Rock but we`re well aware of your loyalties to the union and the company in any given situation.

[dannyboy]

cach

so you are implying that the union condones covering up theft and the protection of thieves? that is what it sounds like.

tie

being stupid is not against the law. the act of registering the phone with security is exactly what one would do if they indeed believed the phone was a legit purchase. as for the da and the part ups is playing in this action, ups gave the da information. ups says we have proof of this guy stealing the phone. the da takes ups at its word and do their job.

the jury of his peers (the panel) has found the guy not guilty of theft. stupidity, fur sure, but he was not fired because of stupidity, was he. and the powers that be in lp could have fired him for possession of goods stolen from ups, but that was not the charge either.

lp put all their eggs in the felony theft charge at the panel, and the preponderance of the evidence did not support a guilty ruling by the panel.

remember, you have to show the guy is guilty, not just claim he is per your view.

the panel said he is not guilty (innocent for those of you that are learning challenged) of the charge of theft....... lets see what a court of law says.

d

[2Slow]

Originally Posted by IDoLessWorkThanMost

So Red is saying that these thieves stole cell phones, were caught and fired for it, then came back to UPS to sell it on their property at a later date? And this guy was completely innocent, had no idea about these people?

That smells of bull. C'mon are you telling me the bulk driver ( who comes to face with most every person in the building no matter what the oepration -center or hub - had no idea of what went on?

I don't know where these guys work, but in my building there are at least a thousand employees working twenty four hours a day. Also, people get fired all the time. I bet an average of two people a week get fired, most of them get their jobs back, some don't (and managment rarely talks about it).

What's my point? How can you be sure that this guy knew about the firing?

[2Slow]

Originally Posted by 2Slow

I don't know where these guys work, but in my building there are at least a thousand employees working twenty four hours a day. Also, people get fired all the time. I bet an average of two people a week get fired, most of them get their jobs back, some don't (and managment rarely talks about it).

What's my point? How can you be sure that this guy knew about the firing?

Hmmm, guess I shoulda read the whole thing before I replied.

[1989]

You would have to be real stupid to not know/think the phone wasn't stolen. It is illegal to knowingly buy stolen property. Ignorance is not a defense.

[dannyboy]

You would have to be real stupid to not know/think the phone wasn't stolen. It is illegal to knowingly buy stolen property. Ignorance is not a defense.

if the the guy thought or knew the phone was stolen, why would he promptly go to the very place where it was stolen and register it with security? that is something that a person would do that really did not have a clue that it was stolen.

stupid, yes. gullible, yes. trusting when he should have been more cautious? yup a thief? let the court decide.

as in a lot of things posted here, we are only allowed to know what is presented. and on what has been posted, there is no criminal intent on the part of the part timer. and to steal, you have to have the intent to steal, which lp has yet to prove.

possession of stolen goods? possibly. but that is not what ups has charged and is having him prosecuted on.

d

[dannyboy]

than likely be pleaded out and will not see a courtroom.

let me clarify my response

if you shoot someone, they will charge you with several things, all the way from murder 1, murder 2, reckless homicide, and a dozen more. that way, depending on how strong the case and evidence is, they can fall back on several other charges that are lesser than the most serious charge.

in this case, they have charged him with felony theft. that means that the amount stolen has to be greater than a certain amount. in our case $1000 or more. if it can be proved that the actual value is less than $1000, the case gets thrown out. if they can not prove (remember, this is America where you are innocent until PROVED guilty) that he physically stole the phone, then its over. anything else in the mix is not considered.

and since they have not charged him with any lesser crimes, they are restricted to proving that the phone was actually worth $1000 or more, and that he physically took the phone from the package. that is something that ups could not and did not do at the hearing, and most likely will not be able to do at the trial. they have to prove both.

from what was posted, there are no lesser charges so they would not be able to offer a plea to a lesser charge.

it would seem they were going for the whole ball of wax without leaving themselves an out, per what has been posted.

and as i said before, as long as i could afford the legal council, i would never plea if i was innocent.

d

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by cachsux

Thank You Rock but we`re well aware of your loyalties to the union and the company in any given situation.

C'mon, CACH.....am I SERIOUSLY supposed to turn my back on such conduct?? I could go on and on about how these guys give all union workers a bad name, the union goon, 'solidarity', yadda, yadda but I'm not going to. I'm feeling too d*mn good to have a philosophical debate with a person that hates my living guts.

Originally Posted by dannyboy

cach

so you are implying that the union condones covering up theft and the protection of thieves? that is what it sounds like.

I agree, Danny. If so, unionism makes me physically ill right now. By the way....hows your hand? My first surgeon fouled up my arm. I'm on a year-long road to recovery. -Rocky

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

cach

so you are implying that the union condones covering up theft and the protection of thieves? that is what it sounds like.

tie

remember, you have to show the guy is guilty, not just claim he is per your view.

the panel said he is not guilty (innocent for those of you that are learning challenged) of the charge of theft....... lets see what a court of law says.

d

Danny ,
thats been my point all along. Phrasing it another way the guy getting his job back does not mean he is innocent only that we could not prove he stole it. Proving he stole it would mean having eyewitness or film.

We had one of these cases recently same type of scenario. Guys thought they would not get caught. Actually registered the phones they had stolen.

Registering is not any kind of involved process. the main reason you do it is to get one of those metallic numbered stickies for the phone so you don't have to get a gate pass every day.

We have also caught people trying to walk out with a stolen phones on their hip as if it was their personal phone.

I've dealt with plenty of these cases over the years. If Mike Eskew calls the local officials he might get the DA to pursue a weak case. But our local people do not have the same clout. The DA is only taking on strong cases. There is more to this story and corporate cronism is not the answer.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

if the the guy thought or knew the phone was stolen, why would he promptly go to the very place where it was stolen and register it with security? that is something that a person would do that really did not have a clue that it was stolen.
d

Happens all the time Danny. The registration is to get a permanent sticker pass. In many buildings you fill out a form kept in a common area of the building. No security people doing back ground checks on the phones as you register. In this case some LP person actually took the time to go through hundreds of lines of information and check them out. I doubt the security folks in my building are doing the same thing.

[IDoLessWorkThanMost]

Has anyone thought or stated that the person with the stolen goods may have registered the phone and etc, knowing the phone was stolen, to make themselves look less guilty as a backup plan incase they were caught? "Why would I register a phone I knew was stolen"
Or is that taking it too far? I don't think it is.

[cachsux]

Originally Posted by RockyRogue

C'mon, CACH.....am I SERIOUSLY supposed to turn my back on such conduct?? I could go on and on about how these guys give all union workers a bad name, the union goon, 'solidarity', yadda, yadda but I'm not going to.

How touching,the picket line crosser is worried on how it will make the union look. Turn your back on conduct? You turn your back on the company and left. How things going at Wal-mart?

[cachsux]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

cach

so you are implying that the union condones covering up theft and the protection of thieves? that is what it sounds like.

Dboy
Which of my two posts on this thread are you getting that implication from? One was about how the cops are in the company's pocket at our building,which is true. Two was a shot at a flip flopper ex-employee.

As far as the union covering up theft I`ve seen both sides cover things up or prosecute over the course of my career.

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by cachsux

How touching,the picket line crosser is worried on how it will make the union look. Turn your back on conduct? You turn your back on the company and left. How things going at Wal-mart?

I won't touch the picket-line shot because I'm pretty sure we've covered that topic to death. I've always been pro-union, just not for the same reasons as cited today. No, I like the 'check and balance' idea from earlier in the 20th century. Its a real shame we've gotten away from that model.

I did not turn my back on the Company and leave. I would have happily pursued a career with the company if I'd been given the opportunity. That was UPS' call, not mine. I don't look back with regrets. I stand by every decision I've made because at that point, it was the best decision I could make.

I don't work at Wal-Mart. I work for a business college in northern Minnesota. I'd post proof but then my real ID would get out and that's no good.

Next shot? -Rocky

[cachsux]

Pro-union? This from Mr. Gee should I cross or not. I can dig your post up if you want. As far as be given an opportunity,your not going to get anywhere if you quit and move and don`t stick around to go up the ladder. It was too much work so you used the company benefits and left. You`ve even done this with employers since you left.

I said it before, your a tick.


Now back CSI Palatine.

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by cachsux

As far as be given an opportunity,your not going to get anywhere if you quit and move and don`t stick around to go up the ladder. It was too much work so you used the company benefits and left. You`ve even done this with employers since you left.

Listen, jerk....I left UPS because I had greener pastures. I unloaded and sorted at Commerce City for 10 months. I made production time and again. When I double-shifted on the Twilight, I was too fast for all but a handful of sorters. I was an anomaly there because when I'd get shut-off I'd storm out of my trailer, screaming smack at the aisle. It was fun! You wanna try telling me AGAIN I left because the work was too hard? I couldn't move up because I had a relative in management at ADDIL. They finally got out of that h*ll in August. Unfortunately, UPS had already long ago lost my services. I'll say it again...I would have pursued a career if given that opportunity. I've been given that opportunity by another company. These things happen to management / 'white collar workers.' And please.....don't take shots at white collar workers. Not all of them are bad.

And I must strongly disagree with your comment about using employer's benefits and leaving. The government installation I went to work for a month after leaving UPS didn't pay benefits. I was on my own there. I worked for my school for about 3 months and the same was true there: no benefits. I was a student worker. Next shot? Might it be about my work-ethic? -Rocky

[705red]

Originally Posted by Bloodybrown

Red, why do you always take on the bleeding heart cases??.....one of these days your going to look so stupid for backing a thug or thief ( you probably already have, but still don't learn your lesson) This guy knew what he was doing when he bought the phone. Chicago people are street smart and play all the angles as you and local do. I think you followed the wrong career path, you should have been a defense attorney and maybe OJ would have hired you for his case in Las vegas. I am sure you think he was innocent now as he was back in the nineties!!!!

Bloody i have missed you! I take on the bleeding heart cases because one of your fellow management knuckleheads, is either too lazy, too stupid or a combination of them both to do his/her job the right way.

What you might call angles, i call just simple ability to read a sentence. This is what the contract is full of! Words, sentences but no pictures.

[dannyboy]

I doubt the security folks in my building are doing the same thing.

Tie, then what in heavens name are you paying them for?

tie, i have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your ability. i too have seen some pretty stupid employees, and some wonderful friends that have ended up as thieves (several i ended up as either part or all of the reasons they ended up caught) and i have 0 tolerance for that. especially if you try to use me to help you steal. but as for the rest of your thread, i really must strongly disagree. lemme explain it this way.

as long as you were on the other side if the union/ups hearing, you were entitled to your opinion, which all your posts are, your opinion based on years of experience.

you would have been well within your rights to pin the guilty tail on the part timer. but since the company and union agreed that there was not enough evidence to fire him, then it is part of your job to deal with, uphold, and confirm that decision. whether you agree with that or not, that is your job. and unless you have other information to the contrary, that experience is in past.

as for the next step in this drama that is being hijacked, that too is way past any of us determining the guilt or innocence of the guy. that is what the court hearing is for. and agree with what the court says or not, it is your job as a manager to uphold the verdict and to treat the young man not as a thief, but as a valued employee that has made a severe mistake. hopefully one that he will learn from. what your experience tells you, or what your gut feeling says, really does not have an impact on the responsible way you need to treat the guy. if found not guilty, and you keep on insisting that there is guilt leaves you open to additional issues.

d

[705red]

Originally Posted by tieguy

company does not pursue charges. this is not a civil case. The DA looks at the evidence and decides to prosecute if the evidence is there. The real question here is why is the DA pursuing this lowly theft case against this guy. There must be some pretty damning evidence.

company has to prove he stole it. Almost impossible to do unless you get an eye witness who is non union to provide a statement.

Tie you have hit it on the head! If you couldnt prove it at panel were you know at worst case your side would have deadlocked the case, how will you be able to prove it in a courtroom. This is were the waste comes in at. the company was embarrassed at panel and will again face the same in front of a courtroom filed with others and reporters next month.

[705red]

If stupidity was ever held against ups employees we would be in a major shortage of management canidates!

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by 705red

the company was embarrassed at panel and will again face the same in front of a courtroom filed with others and reporters next month.

I really hope you were joking earlier about bringing reporters to court, Red. Embarassing your company at panel is one thing--and I would find it amusing myself--but in public in a court of law? C'mon.....I'd hope you had a little more dignity than this! -Rocky

[drewed]

Originally Posted by 705red

company has to prove he stole it. Almost impossible to do unless you get an eye witness who is non union to provide a statement.

Tie you have hit it on the head! If you couldnt prove it at panel were you know at worst case your side would have deadlocked the case, how will you be able to prove it in a courtroom. This is were the waste comes in at. the company was embarrassed at panel and will again face the same in front of a courtroom filed with others and reporters next month.

....just a question why would it matter whether or not the witness was union or not?

[IDoLessWorkThanMost]

Originally Posted by RockyRogue

Listen, jerk....I left UPS because I had greener pastures. I unloaded and sorted at Commerce City for 10 months. I made production time and again. When I double-shifted on the Twilight, I was too fast for all but a handful of sorters. I was an anomaly there because when I'd get shut-off I'd storm out of my trailer, screaming smack at the aisle. It was fun! You wanna try telling me AGAIN I left because the work was too hard? I couldn't move up because I had a relative in management at ADDIL. They finally got out of that h*ll in August. Unfortunately, UPS had already long ago lost my services. I'll say it again...I would have pursued a career if given that opportunity. I've been given that opportunity by another company. These things happen to management / 'white collar workers.' And please.....don't take shots at white collar workers. Not all of them are bad.

And I must strongly disagree with your comment about using employer's benefits and leaving. The government installation I went to work for a month after leaving UPS didn't pay benefits. I was on my own there. I worked for my school for about 3 months and the same was true there: no benefits. I was a student worker. Next shot? Might it be about my work-ethic? -Rocky

No offense, but when you work so fast that people shut you off, then scream smack at them, you are not a union brother but a selfish management pet trying to impress people that could care less about you and your future. Joking around or not that is lame behaviour and believe me, I've seen your type time and time again. That is nothing to brag about, just as dogging it isn't.