DHL Out on Dec 10th?

[Big Babooba]

Originally Posted by cachsux

Back in the day I had a customer who started out small out of his basement,moved up to a small office at the time I had him on my route. He came to me and pointed out that the folks at UPS wouldn`t give him the software to automate his shipping. He was told he was to small. Now at the time UPS was setting up accounts with computers,software,training,etc,the works. This guy,being in the computer and software business,was only asking for the software as he had everything else he needed. He even offered to pay for it. I complained to my mgr,he complained to UPS all the way up to Atlanta,but we were told that BD said he was to small. When I told him I was leaving to go to feeder he said then he then had no reason to stay with UPS out of loyalty to me. Fast forward 14 years,he now has a large distribution ctr in an industrial park and has trailer fulls of packages all going by FedEx. When UPS comes sniffing around from time to time he shows them the letters from UPS saying they couldn`t service him because he was to small. He has 8 figure business income,7 figure personal income. I know this because my wife handles his finances for his family. UPS lost this because someone in BD didn`t have the common sense to look past their nose and see this guys potential. He was the last company I ever turned any leads/development info on. If you want maybe I can put in a good word for you when we go to his Xmas party.

That's their problem. they're too busy looking for the lunkers that they disregard the small fish. The last sales lead I put in was over two years ago. The guy sought me out because he wanted a UPS account. He was a sales rep for some west coast company. He said he was going to start small but within a year he would be shipping around 100 packages a week. The phone center called him once and didn't get an answer, so they closed the lead. Guess who gets his business now? Not us.

We had an account exec in the old days that was awesome. He could sell sand to an Arab. He would take the shippers out to eat, bring them coffee mugs etc. He treated each shipper like they were the only one he had. He sold our service like there was no tomorrow. We were sending trailers into some of my pickups because of his efforts. UPS started messing with him so he went to a competitor, and so did our shippers.

[BigBrownSanta]

Originally Posted by UpstateNYUPSer

In theory this sounds like a good idea and a motivational tool but it's fairness may be in question. Pickup volume and the number of pickup stops vary from area to area. We have one route in our center that has 60+ pickup stops while we have one that has 3. There are some pickup accounts that are serviced by two or more package car drivers or perhaps a pkg car and a feeder driver. There are some seasonal accounts that the center team will move from driver to driver to balance the dispatch. There are a number of variables which could make implementation of a bonus program difficult at best.

Fairness would be built on seniority based on the 2 year bids. Fairness isn't the issue. Increasing volume is. The 3 pickup driver will be looking for more pickup accounts on area, and the 60 pickup driver will be making sure to keep the 60 pickups he/she has happy.

Like i said earlier, it will never happen.

[Mike Hawk]

Originally Posted by cachsux

Back in the day I had a customer who started out small out of his basement,moved up to a small office at the time I had him on my route. He came to me and pointed out that the folks at UPS wouldn`t give him the software to automate his shipping. He was told he was to small. Now at the time UPS was setting up accounts with computers,software,training,etc,the works. This guy,being in the computer and software business,was only asking for the software as he had everything else he needed. He even offered to pay for it. I complained to my mgr,he complained to UPS all the way up to Atlanta,but we were told that BD said he was to small. When I told him I was leaving to go to feeder he said then he then had no reason to stay with UPS out of loyalty to me. Fast forward 14 years,he now has a large distribution ctr in an industrial park and has trailer fulls of packages all going by FedEx. When UPS comes sniffing around from time to time he shows them the letters from UPS saying they couldn`t service him because he was to small. He has 8 figure business income,7 figure personal income. I know this because my wife handles his finances for his family. UPS lost this because someone in BD didn`t have the common sense to look past their nose and see this guys potential. He was the last company I ever turned any leads/development info on. If you want maybe I can put in a good word for you when we go to his Xmas party.

I head a sup talking about why we don't have Microsoft as a shipper, when Bill Gates was working out of a garage UPS wouldn't give him a set pickup time because he was too small, more money for FedEx.

[705red]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

That sucks for your friend. I wish there were an option in the system to take cases like that into account. But there is not. The system is based on who turns in the lead first. That is the way it works, and we have to deal with it, your friend is off base thinking about filing a grievance. (not sure what he would file under, what sales lead language is in the contract?)

There is language in the contract covering volume develpoment under article 55 sect 9. Im hoping we dont have to go that route and im talking with management now to resolve it.

Let me give you an analogy. Lets say I had two preloaders, both wanting to go driving. One of them is just a superstar, always on time and ready to go, always works safe and fast, totally organized and remembers addresses, has perfect spacial awareness. I know this guy would be just a fantastic driver. The other guy is just OK, but has 6 months more seniority. So, I go to you as the steward and say, "listen, my superstar here has really busted his but and shown he is deserving, so I am going to give him the shot at driving over the less motivated guy with more seniority, so don't start any grievance stuff". You and I both know you would tell me I was way off base, the rules don't work that way and I need to live with it. And you would be right.

Just because someone is a superstar loader does not mean he would be a better driver, those that run and hustle are usually the first to burn out, while the guy that works at a nice pace doesnt. The contract that we work under spells out seniority and at ups all you have is seniority.

Your friend should be proud of the win he helped bring about and satisfied in the knowledge it will help protect the jobs of himself and his brothers and sisters. He was however no more "burned" by the sales lead program than the superstar preloader in my example was burned by the contract in not getting a shot at driving.

This is exactly how ups turns good drivers into great union drivers. Comparing employee seniority to a driver dedicating himself to bend over backwards to gain business that someone else 2,000 miles away submitted when they do not deal with this customer. Sounds a little fishy seeing i am not allowed to have the name of the employee to find out how they discovered this company so far away.




In times of a tough economy, unfortunately, you give work to the people who have been there for whom you actually HAVE work that can on some level generate or support the generation of revenue. If you abandon that principle because it hurts to see people struggling under lay offs, you risk the survival of the company and every one's jobs.

I am left to wonder if you are not making a mountain of a mole hill on the DHL sales guys thing. I have not heard of any being hired in my district, do you have any solid numbers on how many have been hired in Illinois?

Im not sure of the total of dhl sales force that was hired but 1 was introduced to us in our pcm this past week. Hiring 1 outsider whan we have anyone on layoff is just not how you treat the dedicated employees of this company. We take pride from promotion from within and in these times its a smack in the face!

[Mike Hawk]

Red, he probably found a FedEx box and put the lead in based on the return address, one of our drivers did that and hit a $1000 jackpot.

[broncobros1]

This is hysterical...I called Red out on name calling and now all my posts have been depleted. Sounds like the democratic Teamster machine rolling...what a joke!

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by 705red

Im not sure of the total of dhl sales force that was hired but 1 was introduced to us in our pcm this past week. Hiring 1 outsider whan we have anyone on layoff is just not how you treat the dedicated employees of this company. We take pride from promotion from within and in these times its a smack in the face!

And how many drivers in your center put in a letter for a BD job? Did you? If there are zero, are you suggesting we hire no one to bring in more volume until all hourlies are back from lay off?

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by 705red

Just because someone is a superstar loader does not mean he would be a better driver, those that run and hustle are usually the first to burn out, while the guy that works at a nice pace doesnt. The contract that we work under spells out seniority and at ups all you have is seniority.

It is totally irrelevant who might or might not make a good driver or who might or might not burn out. You are correct, seniority is all that there is. So, which sales lead has the most seniority? Why is your friend trying to argue that his efforts should over ride the rules? No amount of effort overrides seniority does it?

Originally Posted by 705red

This is exactly how ups turns good drivers into great union drivers. Comparing employee seniority to a driver dedicating himself to bend over backwards to gain business that someone else 2,000 miles away submitted when they do not deal with this customer. Sounds a little fishy seeing i am not allowed to have the name of the employee to find out how they discovered this company so far away.

I am simply pointing out the rules. In issues of seniority, you agree the rules MUST be followed. Now that you have a friend who you and he believe should get the reward for his efforts, you think it is all a big conspiracy and THOSE rules should be scrapped.

You have no idea how much or little contact this person in another state has with this customer. Distance is not that big of a factor in the age of telephones, and picking up and delivering is not the only way to get leads.

[705red]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

It is totally irrelevant who might or might not make a good driver or who might or might not burn out. You are correct, seniority is all that there is. So, which sales lead has the most seniority? Why is your friend trying to argue that his efforts should over ride the rules? No amount of effort overrides seniority does it?



I am simply pointing out the rules. In issues of seniority, you agree the rules MUST be followed. Now that you have a friend who you and he believe should get the reward for his efforts, you think it is all a big conspiracy and THOSE rules should be scrapped.

You have no idea how much or little contact this person in another state has with this customer. Distance is not that big of a factor in the age of telephones, and picking up and delivering is not the only way to get leads.

What rules are you pointing out? We all understand seniority! Its spelled out in black and white in the good book, while sales leads are not and have not been bargained through the union.

So in this case it would make a great case to present to the company and maybe negotiate some rules, but until than there are no rules on who should get paid for it.

Whats right is right, and up on to your last post you had very good points and i really enjoyed the discussion, but now my friend you are just grasping. IMO

[zeus2ez]

I wondered with the quest to aquire DHL business that UPS is trying
to recruit, what FedEx is doing to compete for those customers. FedEx.com is offering
discounts to those customers. Why in the world hasn't UPS implemented this tactic?
The less expensive service is why those former DHL customers used DHL in the first
place.

[BrownSuit]

Originally Posted by zeus2ez

I wondered with the quest to aquire DHL business that UPS is trying
to recruit, what FedEx is doing to compete for those customers. FedEx.com is offering
discounts to those customers. Why in the world hasn't UPS implemented this tactic?
The less expensive service is why those former DHL customers used DHL in the first
place.

UPS has. The difference is that UPS discounts are tiered based on the customer's volume, whereas FedEx Discounts are flat and they are questionable. Our air rates are less than those of FedEx as it is, so our discounts would mean more to begin with.

See the site below for more info on UPS Discounts. Be aware that the site is only up until 12/5/08.

http://www.switchnow.ups.com/switcha...=switchandsave

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by 705red

What rules are you pointing out? We all understand seniority! Its spelled out in black and white in the good book, while sales leads are not and have not been bargained through the union.

So in this case it would make a great case to present to the company and maybe negotiate some rules, but until than there are no rules on who should get paid for it.

Whats right is right, and up on to your last post you had very good points and i really enjoyed the discussion, but now my friend you are just grasping. IMO

There are rules to the sales lead program. The main difference between those rules and seniority, as you point out, is they were not negotiated by two sides and written up in a legally binding contract. So, yes, the rules of the Sales lead program are more flexible. I was not trying to claim it was a perfect parallel to seniority, but just because the analogy is not perfect, does not mean there are not common characteristics. And just because the rules are subject to being subjectively reviewed, and hopefully for your friend, results altered based on a compelling case being made, does not mean that there are no rules.

But you know what? I will concede that point. Let us for the sake of discourse assume that the rules may be ignored and it does not matter who first put in the sales lead for this win. I agree with you that right is right, and it would seem right to me that the person who put in the most fruitful effort leading to the win of this large customer should get all or most of the reward.

The problem here is that you have not made a compelling case that it is indeed your friend that has put in the effort that has had the greatest impact on the company's decision to go to UPS.

How about answering a couple of question -
What is the position with the company of the guy your friend has been working with over the past couple years? You have not indicated if he is a decision maker or not. Has your friend been delivering packages nearly daily to the receiving and shipping clerk and extolling the virtues of UPS service to him? If so, while that is a great way to protect the shield, and certainly helps to get a friendly voice on the inside, it would pale in comparison to say the cousin of the company's VP in charge of transportation and logistics calling him from Wyoming and chatting with him taking a second look at UPS, and saying "Can I have a sale professional call you to talk about some fantastic discounts we could get for you with your volume" in terms of impact toward winning the volume.

Of course, we also have no idea what level of effort was put in by this other party, nor by the BD people who followed up on the lead. So here is another question, if you friend has been working on this company for a couple years, why is only now after the lead was turned in and BD followed up that the account was actually sold? I may be off on the time frames, if so, please correct me. Certainly I would have to ask if your friend had been working on these guys for 2 years, and it is as you claim, through his efforts that we have this win, why did this win not come 2 or even 1 year ago?

So, humor me, practice up for the case you will present to management in your district to win justice for you friend. Make your case.

[705red]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

There are rules to the sales lead program. The main difference between those rules and seniority, as you point out, is they were not negotiated by two sides and written up in a legally binding contract. So, yes, the rules of the Sales lead program are more flexible. I was not trying to claim it was a perfect parallel to seniority, but just because the analogy is not perfect, does not mean there are not common characteristics. And just because the rules are subject to being subjectively reviewed, and hopefully for your friend, results altered based on a compelling case being made, does not mean that there are no rules.

I see what you are saying, im concerned more with the rules that are negotiated on my behalf than ones that i have no control over, so we agree.

But you know what? I will concede that point. Let us for the sake of discourse assume that the rules may be ignored and it does not matter who first put in the sales lead for this win. I agree with you that right is right, and it would seem right to me that the person who put in the most fruitful effort leading to the win of this large customer should get all or most of the reward.

The problem here is that you have not made a compelling case that it is indeed your friend that has put in the effort that has had the greatest impact on the company's decision to go to UPS.

How about answering a couple of question -
What is the position with the company of the guy your friend has been working with over the past couple years? You have not indicated if he is a decision maker or not. Has your friend been delivering packages nearly daily to the receiving and shipping clerk and extolling the virtues of UPS service to him? If so, while that is a great way to protect the shield, and certainly helps to get a friendly voice on the inside, it would pale in comparison to say the cousin of the company's VP in charge of transportation and logistics calling him from Wyoming and chatting with him taking a second look at UPS, and saying "Can I have a sale professional call you to talk about some fantastic discounts we could get for you with your volume" in terms of impact toward winning the volume.


From my undersatnding its the shipping manager, the driver has bent over backwards for some time delivering all of the packages before 1030 and working this customer on the benefits of using ups.

Now bd has promised him they would give him the credit for the lead after the customer got involved, and i give the driver alot of credit for not going back and complaining to the customer on how he was shafted.

Of course, we also have no idea what level of effort was put in by this other party, nor by the BD people who followed up on the lead. So here is another question, if you friend has been working on this company for a couple years, why is only now after the lead was turned in and BD followed up that the account was actually sold? I may be off on the time frames, if so, please correct me. Certainly I would have to ask if your friend had been working on these guys for 2 years, and it is as you claim, through his efforts that we have this win, why did this win not come 2 or even 1 year ago?

So, humor me, practice up for the case you will present to management in your district to win justice for you friend. Make your case.

I have learned one thing from posting on this site! Especially because i am known, not to give out to much info, it only gives them time to prepare an argument for my position. So i am done with this unless the driver would like me to file for him. But it has been a pleasure having a good debate over an issue with someone in management, are you retired? lol

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by cachsux

Back in the day I had a customer who started out small out of his basement,moved up to a small office at the time I had him on my route. He came to me and pointed out that the folks at UPS wouldn`t give him the software to automate his shipping. He was told he was to small. Now at the time UPS was setting up accounts with computers,software,training,etc,the works. This guy,being in the computer and software business,was only asking for the software as he had everything else he needed. He even offered to pay for it. I complained to my mgr,he complained to UPS all the way up to Atlanta,but we were told that BD said he was to small. When I told him I was leaving to go to feeder he said then he then had no reason to stay with UPS out of loyalty to me. Fast forward 14 years,he now has a large distribution ctr in an industrial park and has trailer fulls of packages all going by FedEx. When UPS comes sniffing around from time to time he shows them the letters from UPS saying they couldn`t service him because he was to small. He has 8 figure business income,7 figure personal income. I know this because my wife handles his finances for his family. UPS lost this because someone in BD didn`t have the common sense to look past their nose and see this guys potential. He was the last company I ever turned any leads/development info on. If you want maybe I can put in a good word for you when we go to his Xmas party.

I have a hard time buying this. I am betting there is a lot more to this story feeding into his reasons for going with FedEx than not giving him a free version of Maxiship. I was in TSG starting in 1993. Back then, we installed Maxiship systems in larger customers sites, essentially giving them one or more computers, label and report printers, my fellow techs and I would install and maintain these systems. The cost was considerable, so naturally it was only for customers that maintained certain volume levels. At that time, the software itself was not sold nor given to ANYONE outside this program, and could only be installed on UPS purchased hardware mostly for liability reasons. A couple years later, around '95 '96 we moved to Worldship which is the system we give out now. In any case, once we developed the stand alone system that could be installed by the customer on their own hardware, we gave it to EVERYONE, free, gratis, have at, download from UPS.com all you want. Whether you ship a thousand pieces a month or none ever. There was never a time when we would let some people have the software only and not others because they were "too small". Once we started giving out the software, we would give it to anyone who would sign a release ( the same release you agree to by clicking install on every piece of commercial software you have ever put on your computer, basically saying you will not sue the maker of the software even if it destroys all your data, melts your hard drive, and spanks your kids). Think about it. The ONLY thing that software did was help you to use UPS to ship. It made it easier for you to give UPS revenue. It made it a breeze to essentially donate to the MIP and dividends of the UPS shareholders. For the cost of exactly zippolla to UPS.

And you bought it when this guy told you UPS would not give it to him because he was too small? It makes no sense.

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by Mike Hawk

I head a sup talking about why we don't have Microsoft as a shipper, when Bill Gates was working out of a garage UPS wouldn't give him a set pickup time because he was too small, more money for FedEx.

I am putting my money on urban legend with this one. When Bill Gates was working out of "his garage" it was the mid to early 70's and Federal express was only giving express service to certain major metropolitan areas. They had no general ground service, and we had no next day air service of any kind. Was really apples and oranges at that point.

[scratch]

Originally Posted by broncobros1

This is hysterical...I called Red out on name calling and now all my posts have been depleted. Sounds like the democratic Teamster machine rolling...what a joke!

One of the moderators did remove several posts from a couple of posters in this thread where there was some name calling. And it just wasn't yours deleted. Calling people names does nothing to the discussion. If you are not able debate a point, then perhaps you need to move in. It appears to me that you started it this round, and this isn't the first time.

[705red]

Heres a clip of a rally that was put together by teamsters local 705 on behalf of the laid off dhl drivers and clerks. It appears dhl could be in for some serious lawsuits from the cities that they operated in. At least here now the cities plan on getting their money back from dhl for the tax breaks that dhl was given to open in these cities.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sec...rticle-6517133

[cachsux]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

I have a hard time buying this. I am betting there is a lot more to this story feeding into his reasons for going with FedEx than not giving him a free version of Maxiship. I was in TSG starting in 1993. Back then, we installed Maxiship systems in larger customers sites, essentially giving them one or more computers, label and report printers, my fellow techs and I would install and maintain these systems. The cost was considerable, so naturally it was only for customers that maintained certain volume levels. At that time, the software itself was not sold nor given to ANYONE outside this program, and could only be installed on UPS purchased hardware mostly for liability reasons. A couple years later, around '95 '96 we moved to Worldship which is the system we give out now. In any case, once we developed the stand alone system that could be installed by the customer on their own hardware, we gave it to EVERYONE, free, gratis, have at, download from UPS.com all you want. Whether you ship a thousand pieces a month or none ever. There was never a time when we would let some people have the software only and not others because they were "too small". Once we started giving out the software, we would give it to anyone who would sign a release ( the same release you agree to by clicking install on every piece of commercial software you have ever put on your computer, basically saying you will not sue the maker of the software even if it destroys all your data, melts your hard drive, and spanks your kids). Think about it. The ONLY thing that software did was help you to use UPS to ship. It made it easier for you to give UPS revenue. It made it a breeze to essentially donate to the MIP and dividends of the UPS shareholders. For the cost of exactly zippolla to UPS.

And you bought it when this guy told you UPS would not give it to him because he was too small? It makes no sense.

He was my customer from 89-96. I was the one who humped his stuff out of his basement,out of his little office when he moved up from that. I was the one who complained on our side to my OC sup,may CM,to the sales person we saw.and gave him the number to Atlanta. BD came out once over the entire time I handled him as a customer. Whatever you call your program it was during the transition from hand written pickup books to computer generated books. When I left for feeder,he left for FedEx. No BS about it.

[Mike Hawk]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

I am putting my money on urban legend with this one. When Bill Gates was working out of "his garage" it was the mid to early 70's and Federal express was only giving express service to certain major metropolitan areas. They had no general ground service, and we had no next day air service of any kind. Was really apples and oranges at that point.

He may not have swiched to FedEx then and there, but he was unhappy with our service then and is with FedEx now.

[barney]

Well i hope this answers the questions, but there is a meeting here in DTW land this weekend to find out nore...

here

[coldworld]

Originally Posted by BrownSuit

UPS has. The difference is that UPS discounts are tiered based on the customer's volume, whereas FedEx Discounts are flat and they are questionable. Our air rates are less than those of FedEx as it is, so our discounts would mean more to begin with.

See the site below for more info on UPS Discounts. Be aware that the site is only up until 12/5/08.

http://www.switchnow.ups.com/switcha...=switchandsave

Are you positive about this, or is this for Large sized shippers?

[zeus2ez]

The bleeding continues...UPS mentioned in the article may benefit.
ABX Air got notice Friday that DHL will discontinue a substantial portion of its operations in Wilmington on January 4.
That means 1,000 workers at the Wilmington worksite will lose their jobs.
DHL will keep daytime package sorting on Sundays and night-time sorting will continue.
ABX Air has already eliminated about 2,700 workers since May.

International operations will remain at the former Clinton County Air Force Base until DHL finalizes a contract with UPS and transfers that work to Louisville. Source: http://www.wcpo.com/content/specials...bNNmU6SSw.cspx

[upssalesguy]

Originally Posted by coldworld

Are you positive about this, or is this for Large sized shippers?

our air rates start 5-8% lower than fedex for busienss customers.


The confusing part for customers is becasue we have two rates at UPS, the retail rate and the daily rate. It is the daily rate that is lower and as a customer, you get those base rates if you have a daily pickup or average $50 per week - edit - for four weeks

as a daily pickup, you also get Worldship software - i huge advantage over fedex. you can do small package, hundredweight, international (paperless commercial invoices) LTL, and heavy air freight all one one piece of software.

[BigBrownSanta]

Originally Posted by upssalesguy

our air rates start 5-8% lower than fedex for busienss customers.


The confusing part for customers is becasue we have two rates at UPS, the retail rate and the daily rate. It is the daily rate that is lower and as a customer, you get those base rates if you have a daily pickup or average $50 per week - edit - for four weeks

as a daily pickup, you also get Worldship software - i huge advantage over fedex. you can do small package, hundredweight, international (paperless commercial invoices) LTL, and heavy air freight all one one piece of software.

Is this Worldship software free to all daily pickup accounts? If so, why do I still have paper record pickup accounts? In fact, why do we have any paper record pickup accounts still?

[barnyard]

Originally Posted by BigBrownSanta

Is this Worldship software free to all daily pickup accounts? If so, why do I still have paper record pickup accounts? In fact, why do we have any paper record pickup accounts still?

I have several paper, daily pick up accounts. The won't change because in two cases, they do not have internet access (seriously); in another case, the shipping person refuses to learn something new and she is close enough to retirement that the shipping manager does not want to fight about it.

There is also a financial incentive for scrapping the book. It is cheaper to use either internet shipping or worldship.

Getting on topic. I picked up 2 accounts Monday. Both ship urine samples for drug testing and both were DHL accounts. Both are testing us and Fedex and whoever does better, will get the volume. Which is kind of surprising, because either will be significantly better than DHLs 'service.'

TB