Production termination!

[dilligaf]

Originally Posted by pickup

I was posting while you typed the followup regarding nlrb and eeoc going hand in hand dilligaf. Nice catch. thanks

Pickup, I know this because I have had an EEOC against the company for discrimination. I had no choice but to learn it to protect myself. It's true what's said, "A violated employee makes a great steward.". At the time I filed I had been working for less than 2 years. It's pretty fricking sad!

[dilligaf]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

II would be curious to see the arbitrators findings. Any chance you could just post the entire Adobe file? Is it considered public information at this point? If not, I certainly understand that would not be cosher.
A couple points for every one to keep in mind based on what Red has said -
The production this driver was compared to is not based on any PAS calculation for expected SPORH, and is not based at all in any way on an IE time study. It is based on actual demonstrated performance during a three day production ride.
Also, as Red said, there were several days in which his SPORH after these lock in rides was 3 or more less. Not one day, and not .3 SPORH less. Several days of 3 or more SPORH less. All else being equal, this points pretty heavily toward a driver not giving a fair days work. If he was giving a fair days effort, the obvious question is what happened on these several days? Was there inclement weather that did not exist during the lock in ride days? Was there road closures? etc. Hopefully if any such incidents occured, the driver was able to provide evidence for it.

NO!!!!!!!!!!! Can't do that. I guarantee both parties signed a non-disclosure. The only thing that can be said is that there was a case and the outcome was thus.

[dilligaf]

Originally Posted by trplnkl

......................................Something is stinking about this whole thing with this driver/steward and the company and the arbitrator. From what we (as a message board) know it seems there was a dedicated effort by the company to get this guy for his union activities which is not only a contract violation but is also illegal. Why and arbitrator could not see this is beyond me.

It seems to me they sand-bagged him. Pure and simple, set him up. I would be curious to see how many times this so called arbitrator sided with the company on decisions. Although arbitrators are supposedly randomly picked, if this arbitrator has a history of siding with UPS, UPS might have gotten lucky with this 'random' choice.

[dilligaf]

Originally Posted by trplnkl

Don't know if it is still part of the contract but at one time it was under the Steward duties and responsibilities section that a steward was not to solicit grievances. Which would be a contract violation. Why wasn't he fired for that if that is why they wanted him gone?

You are right Trpl. I don't know if it is in the contract, but stewards aren't supposed to solicit greivances. But any good steward knows how to work around that by asking questions in a certain way.

[brownrodster]

It's pretty easy to go down a stop or two an hour. Terrible load job by the preloader will do it every time. Huge bulk for terribly inconvenient stops. Pickups take longer than usual. However, if management was targetting me for going slow I'd cut the service and cut every corner I could safely. Like DR in driveways instead of walk up a long driveway. Leave pickups if they aren't finished early enough, etc. And document everything of course. Check load quality as unacceptable if one damn box is out of place. Or maybe I'd sit at the center after PCM and go through my entire load before I start my route. You can definately think of ways to go faster if your damn job is on the line. And any sort of unusual stop must be documented. If you have a 15 minute stop that totally screws you then it must be documented somehow.

[dilligaf]

Also COD's affect the rte. I know we get a time allowance for it, but have you ever had one of those customers that absolutely take forever to write a check. Very frustrating. Customers with special needs. There are a gazillion things in a day that affect SPORH's. And yes, even a drivers attitude. My sup got on me the other day about keeping my keys on my finger (I keep them on my clip unless I'm doing resi, generally). What he doesn't see is the dozen times that I drop my keys off my finger while trying to handle pkgs. It saves me time to clip them. Esp. while doing business.

[BigUnionGuy]

Hey Red,

What's the case number ??



-Bug-

[trickpony1]

The company can influence arbitrators.
The company district nurse can influence the company doctor to DQ drivers.
The company can influence lawmakers for favorable laws.
The company can influence the DOT to look the other way when overweight loads drive by the weigh station. I have seen an impromptu weigh station stop weighing UPS trucks and disappear after some phone calls were made.

I, personally, would like to see the affected driver do an interview with one of the TV documentary shows (example: 20/20, 60 minutes) and expose the underhanded, chicken#### tactics of this company that so espouses honesty and integrity to the world.

BTW, is this the same company that pats the employees on the bottom to get them to contribute to the United Way so they can splash the sensationalism across the media screen and print?

[ih8tbrn]

Originally Posted by New Englander

I'm guessing his 3 stops per hour off days was the "stick it to UPS" days that some drivers do?

I'm guessing to fire them they need to show a regular problem of it happening repeatedly.

Sorry but every center has drivers that should be fired for this.

100% agreed. The drivers in our center say they "are proving a point." I'm not sure who they think they are hurting but the only people it affects is those of us on the sort that get home an hour or 2 later than we would if they would just do their jobs. I for one hope they do start cracking down on that particular behavior and put an end to that crap. I've noticed that the biggest whiners are the ones that bid the routes with the longest day because of the overtime and then bitch about it every single day.

[Omega man]

Originally Posted by redshift1

The key is, if the driver demonstrates a specific level of performance while the supervisor is on car for consecutive days then it's reasonable to expect that same level of performance when he is by himself. For example if the driver runs 17.5 SPOHR on the ride along and suddenly runs 17.2 SPORH when by himself then there is an obvious problem. As a reminder these rides are done over a period of consecutive days so the statistical samples are more reliable. I cannot recall a production termination in my district usually something else is going on as well this driver in question may have been promoting a contentious and divisive personal agenda very few companies big or small will tolerate that behavior.

Statistically, a three day ride is too small of a sample to inver any reliable average production outcome. SPORH not only varies throughout the week, but also throughout the year. UPS is simply fooling arbitrators with no knowledge of this into thinking this is a fair way of judging a driver's performance. After all, this is why they try to use the over/under as a gauge. That at least gives credit to the day-to-day variation in a delivery route. Also, with PAS, they are constantly changing a driver’s delivery area. One day the route may contain a split that may have a totally different allowance than the base route. UPS got lucky on this one because they had an ignorant arbitrator. Every Local must learn how to properly make their case to defend against injustices like this. And yes, I do hold a degree in mathematics.

[local804]

Originally Posted by ih8tbrn

100% agreed. The drivers in our center say they "are proving a point." I'm not sure who they think they are hurting but the only people it affects is those of us on the sort that get home an hour or 2 later than we would if they would just do their jobs. I for one hope they do start cracking down on that particular behavior and put an end to that crap. I've noticed that the biggest whiners are the ones that bid the routes with the longest day because of the overtime and then bitch about it every single day.

Oh please, you act like you are not getting paid for the time you work. I am sure UPS deals with the problem children that they have and I could assure you, this driver was not one of them. Maybe if you were a delivery driver, you would have a different outlook on the job. I have done your job, you have not done mine. I have never been a production problem and my sph range like a football score. Alot has to do with the edd cuts and the volume ( now area is alot bigger) Some days it could be 15 some days it could be 19. No 2 days at UPS are the same ever and any driver(even suit can agree) There have been many OJS`s performed by UPS management and the sph on the 3 days were way way off. That is why they use the average of the 3 day ride. Dont think everyone is out to fk the company just because the numbers arent always what they are expected to be.

[JimJimmyJames]

Originally Posted by redshift1

How would you do it then?

I would set realistic production goals for my employees to meet that don't reward most of them with failure for working their arses off. If you think that UPS has already done such than you either have not been a package car driver or if you were, you did not adhere to the methods.

[705red]

Originally Posted by dilligaf

You are right Trpl. I don't know if it is in the contract, but stewards aren't supposed to solicit greivances. But any good steward knows how to work around that by asking questions in a certain way.

As a steward it is my job to solicit grievances! No were in the contract does it say that i am not allowed. I encourage drivers to file for 9.5s and that is why i have more 9.5 drivers in my center than the rest of my building does in 4 centers combined.

I'm only 1 man, i can not watch every move a sup makes or every contract violation they do, without talking with the other employees to see what they know. Its become a lot easier, now that i have gained the trust of the drivers and when they see a sup, they either call me or text me all the info, stops the sup did, trk numbers, what time,,,etc.

[705red]

Originally Posted by ih8tbrn

100% agreed. The drivers in our center say they "are proving a point." I'm not sure who they think they are hurting but the only people it affects is those of us on the sort that get home an hour or 2 later than we would if they would just do their jobs. I for one hope they do start cracking down on that particular behavior and put an end to that crap. I've noticed that the biggest whiners are the ones that bid the routes with the longest day because of the overtime and then bitch about it every single day.

If you were a driver you would understand what "proving a point" meant. So i will explain it to you. It means that they are taking all of their lunch, paid breaks, doing the job by the methods, closed bulk head door, hand rails, using the cart as much as needed, all of these adds time to your day. This is why you see the drivers coming in later. You should come in and look at these trucks in the morning before you start flying off with alleged allegations. I'm sure when you see a loaded 12 cube bricked front to back going out and than coming back in the same way, you might have a better grasp of what our job details.

Until you have walked a mile in our (package drivers) shoes, you should only speak off your life experiences!

[trickpony1]

Correct me if I am mistaken but isn't the center managers and division managers bonus based on how good the production numbers of his drivers are?
Also, ever heard of MAR? minimum acceptble something (i forgot)
If you are allowed 9 minutes to do a certain part of your job and you do it in 7 minutes then 7 minutes becomes your MAR forever and ever.
Doesn't allow for unexpected intervening variables does it?

[ih8tbrn]

Originally Posted by local804

Oh please, you act like you are not getting paid for the time you work. I am sure UPS deals with the problem children that they have and I could assure you, this driver was not one of them. Maybe if you were a delivery driver, you would have a different outlook on the job. I have done your job, you have not done mine. I have never been a production problem and my sph range like a football score. Alot has to do with the edd cuts and the volume ( now area is alot bigger) Some days it could be 15 some days it could be 19. No 2 days at UPS are the same ever and any driver(even suit can agree) There have been many OJS`s performed by UPS management and the sph on the 3 days were way way off. That is why they use the average of the 3 day ride. Dont think everyone is out to fk the company just because the numbers arent always what they are expected to be.

I never once mentioned anything about numbers and I never said I didn't get paid. Me and my fellow sort workers all have full time jobs and families so that hour or 2 that we have to stand around and twiddle our thumbs makes the difference not the pay. And it is a fact that 1 or 2 drivers in a small center can screw up the whole night. Don't assume that I am talking about every single driver. There are going to be bad apples in every profession. And if you're going to tell me that you believe there aren't drivers that deliberately slack off to "prove a point" then you are either blind or ignorant. You all took the job so suck it up and do your "fair days work." What I do at UPS can't screw up a drivers day, but what they do can screw up mine.

[705red]

Originally Posted by ih8tbrn

I never once mentioned anything about numbers and I never said I didn't get paid. Me and my fellow sort workers all have full time jobs and families so that hour or 2 that we have to stand around and twiddle our thumbs makes the difference not the pay. And it is a fact that 1 or 2 drivers in a small center can screw up the whole night. Don't assume that I am talking about every single driver. There are going to be bad apples in every profession. And if you're going to tell me that you believe there aren't drivers that deliberately slack off to "prove a point" then you are either blind or ignorant. You all took the job so suck it up and do your "fair days work." What I do at UPS can't screw up a drivers day, but what they do can screw up mine.

Do you really believe that we want to be out there all night? You speak about a fair days work for a fair days pay, how about telling the management team not to bust out the route and pile an additional 30 business stops on us or have us cover the pick ups off the guy they sent home because ie said they must break a route!

Have you ever tried driving? I cant judge an iron worker, stock broker, doctor because i have never done these jobs. If you want more family time than maybe you should switch to the preload. This week should be a slow week for us, but i will be filing at least 15 9.5s and every night we have had drivers out past 2100, and its not because we want to deliver in the dark while walking over black ice covered by snow. The bosses decided to dispatch us heavy and keep us out all night. But you say we should suck it up and get in because you want to go home! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

[covemaster]

RED!!!!!! Just curious,I'm sure everything was covered during the panel meetings,but was AGE ever discussed!!! Was this driver older than the other ones that were measured?????

[Dark_Team_135]

Originally Posted by trplnkl

Don't know if it is still part of the contract but at one time it was under the Steward duties and responsibilities section that a steward was not to solicit grievances. Which would be a contract violation. Why wasn't he fired for that if that is why they wanted him gone?

Actually this is false.

Encouraging members to enforce their rights is “protected concerted activity” under the National Labor Relations Act. A supervisor who threatens a steward with discipline for doing his or her job, including “soliciting grievances,” has made an illegal threat and committed an unfair labor practice. In that event, you or your local union can file a charge with the NLRB.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by 705red

Which in my opinion would be great for the grievant. This was a three day arbitration, that is broken down in to a 36 page summary. I'm obviously reading it through glasses worn by a union supporter, but i do not see how the arb could say that his union activity did not play a role in this termination.

I don't know what kind of job this guy did. But I'm not sure you can argue that we should not hold our people accountable if they are big union supporters.

I've seen some big union supporters that took the concept of fighting productivity standards to extremes. Guys who spent more time and energy trying to demonstrate they could not be productive rather then using that same time and energy to get the job done.

The company has always felt we can fire people for productivity standards if we handle the case correctly. Many centers do not have the time and resources to take someone through the entire process and usually get sidetracked at some point.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by brownrodster

Well now I hope UPS goes and fires every driver on their payroll who happens to miss their sporh by 1.5 stops per hour. Wouldn't have any left. I'm pretty fast, but there are days where it's impossible to meet UPS' goals.

If I'm correct the guy did not miss the routes sporh as much as he missed his own demonstrated performance when under direct supervision? example guy does 14.5 sporh average on a performance ride then drops 1.5 to 3 stops an hour whenever he is on his own.
If he was consistently dropping that much from his demonstrated performance then that is a pretty big drop.

we can't hold you accountable for an IE number we can hold you accountable for your own demonstrated performance.

The question I would also have to ask is what else did he have going on on the route. If this guy had as many things going on with the union as Red says then my suspicion would be that he spent a lot of time on the cell phone talking to others about union issues while running his route.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by dilligaf

Actually EEOC and NLRB work hand in hand. EEOC can give a case to NLRB if it is warranted.

maybe file a complaint with NASA and immigration too while you're at it.

The driver has responsibility here. He consistently demonstrated better performance results under direct supervision then he did when unsupervised. He was an experienced shop steward so I'm sure he understood the methods argument. yet for whatever reason he consistently did a much poorer job when unsupervised. He has responsibility in this case that we are now telling him to avoid by filing nuisance lawsuits.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by trplnkl

I'm not freakin lawyer...what the heck does that mean?

comon tex you're smarter then that. he is saying the guy keeps stirring things up for his own personal gain.

Its a valid argument I've seen over the years. Someone who intends to run for union office starts filing all kinds of BS grievances and creating all kinds of hate and discontent in order to promote himself.
Wants to make a name for himself set a reputation for himself as a tough guy. I've seen the election flyers before where someone running for office was put down by his opponent because he did not file enough grievances as a steward.

[ih8tbrn]

Originally Posted by 705red

If you were a driver you would understand what "proving a point" meant. So i will explain it to you. It means that they are taking all of their lunch, paid breaks, doing the job by the methods, closed bulk head door, hand rails, using the cart as much as needed, all of these adds time to your day. This is why you see the drivers coming in later. You should come in and look at these trucks in the morning before you start flying off with alleged allegations. I'm sure when you see a loaded 12 cube bricked front to back going out and than coming back in the same way, you might have a better grasp of what our job details.

Until you have walked a mile in our (package drivers) shoes, you should only speak off your life experiences!

So your argument is that the driver doing his job properly and according to the methods and the contract is his way of screwing the company? Then essentially you are admitting that in either case the driver is at fault. Why do you hold the company to much higher standards than you do your union coworkers? You expect the company to follow the contract to the letter, but you don't expect the hourlies to follow it unless it benefits them.

[705red]

Originally Posted by ih8tbrn

So your argument is that the driver doing his job properly and according to the methods and the contract is his way of screwing the company?

Never in any of my posts did i say that the drivers are screwing the company!! Are you in a different country and having a hard time reading english?
Then essentially you are admitting that in either case the driver is at fault.

If a driver takes his lunch and is over worked and you have to sit and wait to unload a couple extra package cars, how is this the drivers fault? the drivers do not disptch themselves the company does.

Why do you hold the company to much higher standards than you do your union coworkers?

Please explain what standards?

You expect the company to follow the contract to the letter, but you don't expect the hourlies to follow it unless it benefits them.

The drivers should all be forced to take their lunch everyday, and when/if this happens you will need to bring a picture of your family to work, because that is the only time you will see them during the week, like the rest of our drivers. I do 19 to 20 stops an hour, 60 to 80 business stops, 100 residentials and 15 pick ups, monday it was a total of 205 stops, i was 204 over and averaged 20 stops per hour, but im the slacker right?