Production termination!

[705red]

Like many on this site as a user i have made some very good friends. Several years back a group of drivers from local 804 in new york came in to Chicago for a weekend. We decided to meet and go out for some beverages over the weekend. I have kept in contact with them via email, this site and an occasional phone call here and there.

One of these drivers was terminated for production, he just so happens to be a union steward and an active one. Well long story short, i received a phone call today and informing me that the arbitrator ruled with the company and upheld this termination.

I have just spent the last hour reading the ruling from the arbitrator and its clear that she did not like this driver.

Everyone should be very aware that now that ups has this victory under their belt, you can expect to see many more terminations for productions in the very near future. This is a sad day, this driver was only off about a stop to stop and a half of what his performance ride was under perfect conditions.

CYA!!!!!!!!!!!

[brownrodster]

Just one of the many reasons I plan on never bidding a permanent pkg route and also plan on bidding into feeder ASAP. Only 1.5 stops off ????? This guy better get a lawyer.

[705red]

After reading through all of it, which is just about 40 pages, he did have several days were he was off by 3 stops an hour.

This arb, really stepped over the line, and in my opinion the union did a real bad job in its case.

[drewed]

Originally Posted by brownrodster

Just one of the many reasons I plan on never bidding a permanent pkg route and also plan on bidding into feeder ASAP. Only 1.5 stops off ????? This guy better get a lawyer.

Correct me if Im wrong but the lawyer would be useless at this point because both sides agree to uphold what the arb. says?

[paidslave]

Originally Posted by drewed

Correct me if Im wrong but the lawyer would be useless at this point because both sides agree to uphold what the arb. says?

Yup, to late for a lawyer! I believe it is one or the other, ie lawsuit or arbitration. This member gambled with arbitration..The union needs to appeal this verdict.....what good is a contract if an arbitrator doesn't know how to interpret it? Must be more to the story...


This is not a cardinal infraction....

[satellitedriver]

Originally Posted by 705red

Like many on this site as a user i have made some very good friends. Several years back a group of drivers from local 804 in new york came in to Chicago for a weekend. We decided to meet and go out for some beverages over the weekend. I have kept in contact with them via email, this site and an occasional phone call here and there.

One of these drivers was terminated for production, he just so happens to be a union steward and an active one. Well long story short, i received a phone call today and informing me that the arbitrator ruled with the company and upheld this termination.

I have just spent the last hour reading the ruling from the arbitrator and its clear that she did not like this driver.

Everyone should be very aware that now that ups has this victory under their belt, you can expect to see many more terminations for productions in the very near future. This is a sad day, this driver was only off about a stop to stop and a half of what his performance ride was under perfect conditions.

CYA!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the union stance has always been that since production numbers are not addressed in the contract that they do not apply to employment?
First off, I would demand to see the formula that IE uses to produce the average drivers production numbers,
this factoid has always been held as proprietary information by UPS and is not shared.
Secondly, to apply a general average to a specific point in time is very flawed logic and impossible to support.
Thirdly, the arbitrator must take in all factors, as an independent observer, and has liability, if they do not.

Not to pick a fight, but there is more to this story than you reveal.

[busterbrownlady]

I would like to know more information on this case. I just cant believe that the arb. would justify taking a guys job because he was down 3 stops per hour. Things change from day to day. They did a ride w/me a year ago, said I needed 12 stops per hour. O.K. That sounds good in a perfect world, but not every day is the same as the day they rode with me.

[govols019]

It was my understanding that they cannot hold you to the over/under allowed but they could, if a manager was determined enough, hold you accountable to a certain SPORH. Hence, the three day lock-in rides.

[paidslave]

Originally Posted by 705red

Like many on this site as a user i have made some very good friends. Several years back a group of drivers from local 804 in new york came in to Chicago for a weekend. We decided to meet and go out for some beverages over the weekend. I have kept in contact with them via email, this site and an occasional phone call here and there.

One of these drivers was terminated for production, he just so happens to be a union steward and an active one. Well long story short, i received a phone call today and informing me that the arbitrator ruled with the company and upheld this termination.

I have just spent the last hour reading the ruling from the arbitrator and its clear that she did not like this driver.

Everyone should be very aware that now that ups has this victory under their belt, you can expect to see many more terminations for productions in the very near future. This is a sad day, this driver was only off about a stop to stop and a half of what his performance ride was under perfect conditions.

CYA!!!!!!!!!!!

Hopefully he was at least served due process for his greive. Verbal, written, suspension, termination...If not YES UNION did horrible job representing and arbitrator really should not be picked again for any case and members should be warned of this arbitrator. He defitately dropped the ball for a lot of active members. If this happens again, get the best labor lawyer to be found and sue on the terms of the contract that our membership is guided by and forget abitration! Arbitration is only for the company to avoid lawsuits and UPS dodged a bullet here.

Caveat, Good luck finding a lawyer to take the case.....


amen

[satellitedriver]

Originally Posted by govols019

It was my understanding that they cannot hold you to the over/under allowed but they could, if a manager was determined enough, hold you accountable to a certain SPORH. Hence, the three day lock-in rides.

Gov,
that would be correct, if they based the SPORH in a direct correlation with the over/under standards.
I have met my SPORH and have been 1 hr over allowed.
When the two correlate, then the company might (and I use the term "might" loosely) have a case.
As a matter of fact, I increased my SPORH and PAS/EDD implementation decreased my time allowance.
How can it be that IE sets the time standards, the center sets SPORH and the driver is at fault for not meeting expectations?
Talk about too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

[DS]

Collusion
Law. a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement

This really p's me off,but its nothing new.I have no use for the teamsters.
They let me down when I needed them and I hope they sink in the quagmire that holds Jimmy Hoffa.

You may worship them for the wages and benefits that you now have,but the times are changing,and they will soon be redundant.

"Greed is a fat demon with a small mouth and whatever you feed it is never enough"(J.V. Wetering)
Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You never turned around to see the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on the chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

Princess on the steeple and all the pretty people
They're drinkin', thinkin' that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of precious gifts and things
But you'd better lift your diamond ring, you'd better pawn it babe
You used to be so amused
At Napoleon in rags and the language that he used
Go to him now, he calls you, you can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
You're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

Dylan

[soberups]

Originally Posted by govols019

It was my understanding that they cannot hold you to the over/under allowed but they could, if a manager was determined enough, hold you accountable to a certain SPORH. Hence, the three day lock-in rides.

There is nothing in the contract about a "3 day lock in ride".

[satellitedriver]

Originally Posted by DS

Collusion
Law. a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement

This really p's me off,but its nothing new.I have no use for the teamsters.
They let me down when I needed them and I hope they sink in the quagmire that holds Jimmy Hoffa.

You may worship them for the wages and benefits that you now have,but the times are changing,and they will soon be redundant.

"Greed is a fat demon with a small mouth and whatever you feed it is never enough"(J.V. Wetering)
Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You never turned around to see the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on the chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

Princess on the steeple and all the pretty people
They're drinkin', thinkin' that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of precious gifts and things
But you'd better lift your diamond ring, you'd better pawn it babe
You used to be so amused
At Napoleon in rags and the language that he used
Go to him now, he calls you, you can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
You're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

Dylan

Wow,
I am impressed.
Never knew you had it in Ya.

[redshift1]

In my building the drivers who received production rides had erratic performances in SPOHR and over/under. When they were off utility drivers would routinely out perform them on similar volume days. Hard to imagine a
experienced driver with area knowledge being in this type situation while making an honest effort.

[705red]

There is more to the story, this driver was elected 18 months ago in an upset election over a long time steward that really did nothing for the members. In that time this driver had filed 115 grievances, had 100 drivers sign a petition in support of another driver that was wrongly terminated. This steward had filed several nlrb violations against ups, without the union's help. Sounds like this steward did his job as a steward.

The company brought in a sup from another center to do this ride on the driver which was this sups only performance ride while the manager said the centers performance as a whole needed to be addressed. (what better way to address it than to fire the steward) The driver was on vacation the week before he received the ride so the sup rode with the cover driver to get area knowledge. Not a performance ride.

They progressively disciplined this driver for his spoh, suspended him for missing 2 clerk work package a one time occurrence. Ups went after this guy for his union activity.

He was suspended several times all within a few months leading up to this. The arb compared his spor to other drivers doing different routes which is totally unfair as no two routes are a like.

The arbitrator's own words said that there is more to the 4 corners of a contract than whats written in it! No joke! I would love to cut and paste some of her ruling, but i cant do it in adobe, any way that i can do it.

And drewed while ups and the teamsters agree to the rulings as binding, the grievant does have some legal recourse to take. But he has to prove that the arb was incompetent, and by reading this ruling, its possible it could be done.

Oh yeah, this driver was also part of the members united slate, he was running for office of 804 in the next election!

[drewed]

And a judge would just send them to another arbitrator then?

[705red]

Originally Posted by redshift1

In my building the drivers who received production rides had erratic performances in SPOHR and over/under. When they were off utility drivers would routinely out perform them on similar volume days. Hard to imagine a
experienced driver with area knowledge being in this type situation while making an honest effort.

How is that? As a cover driver the you typically drop and run, while the regular driver goes out of his way and puts the packages were the customer would like them.

The regular drivers tends to take his/her lunch, while the burner/cover driver doesn't.

The regular driver knows how to drive with the bulk head door closed, while the cover driver doesnt know how to close the bulk head.

Regular driver can move at a brisk pace, while the cover driver runs balls to the wall.

Regular driver has to work all the tracers from the no lunch taking, no method following runner cover driver.

[705red]

Originally Posted by drewed

And a judge would just send them to another arbitrator then?

Which in my opinion would be great for the grievant. This was a three day arbitration, that is broken down in to a 36 page summary. I'm obviously reading it through glasses worn by a union supporter, but i do not see how the arb could say that his union activity did not play a role in this termination.

[dilligaf]

This is wrong on so many levels. Levels that we can't even imagine yet.






(shaking head) Not good. Not good at all.

[Cementups]

I think the production are totally screwed up. I have parts of my area that I can do 30 stops in an hour, but then I have areas where I may only do 5-7 stops per hour. Adn the route is somewhat different everyday.

[705red]

To be honest, whats even worse is that arbitration's are precedent setting. I guess luckily for the majority of us that we are not in local 804.

[trickpony1]

It's my understanding that the grievance procedure must be exhausted before the individual can seek the services of an attorney.
If this case has gone to arbitration then I would say the grievance procedure has been exhausted.
I would highly recommend that this individual file with the EEOC claiming discrimination immediately. There has to be other drivers who are over 3-3.5 stops per hour.
If the EEOC finds no fault, they will issue the grievant a "right to sue" letter which pretty much opens the door for an attorney to assist in his case. I would also have the attorney pursue retaliation charges against the company.

[beentheredonethat]

Originally Posted by 705red

Which in my opinion would be great for the grievant. This was a three day arbitration, that is broken down in to a 36 page summary. I'm obviously reading it through glasses worn by a union supporter, but i do not see how the arb could say that his union activity did not play a role in this termination.

Red, let's face it we are all to some extent a bit prejudiced (for lack of a better word) and will take sides be it union or mgmt. That's normal. Again with no knowledge of this story, besides what you wrote down. The moral i take away if I were a teamster, would be don't throw a boatload of rocks if there's a chance part of your house is glass. Are there some mgmt who do the wrong thing and violate the contract? Yeah. Are there some hourlies who do the wrong thing and don't do a fair days pay? Yeah.

Let's face it, the hourly has more to lose in most cases then the company. If I were a driver and decided to become a steward, I'd make damn well sure that there would be nothing on me. Everything by the book.

A lot of this kind of reminds me of the news story tonight over in the Middle East with Israel and the Gaza strip and the Hamas (sp?) Is either side 100% right or 100% wrong. I don't think so, (I'm no foreign expert). But All I see from a distance, is both sides are beating on the other and what you end up with is carnage, death.

That may be a bad analogy since I don't think the UPS \ Teaster is like the current Middle east, I'm just pointing out that fighting isn't always the best answer and coming to understandiing where each side feels like they win, gives us both sides who are happy and with mutual respect. A lot easier said then done.

But I wonder if this person had it all to do over again, knowing what he knows now. I'm willing to bet he'd probably still be a steward and probably still have filed grievances. But I'm also willing to be, he'd have filed less. But just a guesss.

[brownrodster]

Originally Posted by drewed

Correct me if Im wrong but the lawyer would be useless at this point because both sides agree to uphold what the arb. says?

Well now I hope UPS goes and fires every driver on their payroll who happens to miss their sporh by 1.5 stops per hour. Wouldn't have any left. I'm pretty fast, but there are days where it's impossible to meet UPS' goals.

[beentheredonethat]

Originally Posted by 705red

Everyone should be very aware that now that ups has this victory under their belt, you can expect to see many more terminations for productions in the very near future......

CYA!!!!!!!!!!!

Red as someone else wrote here before. Work as if your boss were monitoring each activity. Did you follow methods, Did you follow SWM etc? If so, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. Note this goes for both hourly and mgmt.

Jut my 2 cents......