Runners......

[stevetheupsguy]

Originally Posted by Livin the Dream?

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body...

Steve, I didn't mean to hijack, I commented on a previous post in the thread (I used the quotes & everything!) Any other questions on forum etiquette, I'm assuming I should confer with you?

Not at all, living, was just sayin, I think this would make a great topic in a new thread, since this one is already spoken for. Far be it for me to talk about forum etiquette, as I'm the new kid on the block.

BTW, I was going to reply similarly to bubblehead, LOL.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by stevetheupsguy

So you're saying that doing all of the methods, doesn't slow you down? Let's think about this a bit, tie. You go from maniac pace to sanity pace and you're saying there should be no change in SPORH?

Did you say you lost two hours? Thats a whole lot of slowing down and explains why you're getting so much attention. You could shut the bulkhead door twice each time you deliver a pkg and still not lose two hours. You need to reevaluate why you've lost so much time.

[Bubblehead]

Originally Posted by tieguy

Did you say you lost two hours? Thats a whole lot of slowing down and explains why you're getting so much attention. You could shut the bulkhead door twice each time you deliver a pkg and still not lose two hours. You need to reevaluate why you've lost so much time.

Typical manager.
Isolate one variable and pretend to have all the answers to a very complicated equation.
Two hour swing isn't a stretch when comparing a driver working by the methods vs. a runner/gunner.
I think Tie knows this.
Keep engaging him and we will get some good practice for the real world.

[Braveheart]

Runners beware! When laid off guys get to the end of their ropes they, or their friends, will start following the runners themselves and sending photos to corporate and or the news media of drivers with bulk head doors open, seat belts off, running, jumping, speeding, cutting through medians, throwing boxes, improper driver releases, running red lights, etc etc etc

Sorry to say it but it is a dog eat dog world out there. These runners are now costing drivers work and maybe their jobs.

These runners are also corrupting the system by making it appear that you can do these routes safely by the methods when we all know they never get followed.

The runners will be kicking themselves when their backs, knees, and ankles go bad.

Every so often I watch as a driver is walked off the property for an accident all in the name of running the numbers. Carma is a mean bitch.

[brownrodster]

Originally Posted by tieguy

Did you say you lost two hours? Thats a whole lot of slowing down and explains why you're getting so much attention. You could shut the bulkhead door twice each time you deliver a pkg and still not lose two hours. You need to reevaluate why you've lost so much time.

It is very possible for someone who neglects all the methods, skips breaks and lunch to make up several hours over someone using the methods.

I peak helped a driver who I cover sometimes. He was a crazy runner and does the impossible. He does in less than 9 hours what is impossible for me to do in 12 while following all the methods and still being one of the fastest drivers in the center.

Last time I ran a route a long time ago was the last time came in underallowed on a route. I did all the crazy stuff to get done early because I had to be done early for personal stuff after work. I barely beat the route by a few minutes when I normally come in 1.5-2 hours over and follow all the methods. That was the last time I ran a route and I realized how bogus their numbers are. From then on I just made sure I worked safe and followed their methods. Granted, we haven't had time studies in over 20 years and 1 hour over is considered good. But they still ride us over these bogus numbers! 2 hours over and they still read you the riot act.


You have no clue. You have no idea what it's like to do these ridiculously terrible routes that are designed in an office by some bloke who's never been on road. You can shave hours off your day by running to and from the truck, skipping breaks and lunches, keeping your bulkhead door open, leaving your truck idling, not using your seatbelt, DR packages in every driveway instead of going to the house, speeding like a madman, showing up an hour early to set up the truck off the clock, ditching time wasting stops into neighboring trucks... That is what a "runner" does. These things do happen here sometimes by a few individuals. We are not on PAS, EDD or telematics.

Sometimes when I complete a stop while following all methods as taught I think about that driver I rode with and how he would have completely left me in the dust and been a few stops down the road in the time it took me to do everything correctly and safely.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by brownrodster

It is very possible for someone who neglects all the methods, skips breaks and lunch to make up several hours over someone using the methods.

Ok well if you're telling me steve was skipping his lunch before then that would help explain two hours.

Keep in mind this question is not asking about a route that you feel is unfairly timestudied and is always two hours over regardless of who runs it. I'm talking about you are making the allowance and all of a sudden you lose two hours. thats a huge swing. you have to do a lot of slowing down to make that big a swing.

but exactly what did you do that saved you a lot of time but you labeled as being all the crazy things you do. Two hours is a huge swing.

I've heard all the arguments about work being taken off a route for the ojs ride. But I've also seen where that can work against you. The extra stops can improve the stop density thus making it easier to be productive.

Steve how was your performance on the ojs rides you've had and what feedback did you get that the onroad felt would help you bring it in?

were you skipping lunch before and not getting paid for it?

[UPS Lifer]

It is interesting to see this thread develop!

Someone decided that if all the "runners and gunners" BTW - (sidetrack) Where I came from drivers who were under-allowed were called "Producers" so I kind of chuckle when I hear runner/gunner (sorry!). Similar to calling a non producer a "slug" or "in the hole". I went to another district and the term was "in the weeds". Anyway....

Do you really think that getting the gunners to slow down is going to keep drivers from being laid off?

These gunners are keeping stops off you drivers that are complaining you are working over 9.5 hours!!! Just check out the other threads. With out them you get more work.

Do you really think the company can afford to add drivers during this depression? BTW - It ain't a recession!! LOL! Just look around at the closed businesses and empty homes.

If the delicate balance starts swinging the wrong way - The company starts MAJOR layoffs.

Performance is a bell curve. You have slugs on one side (2 hours over) and average drivers at the top (scratch + -) and gunners (2 hours under) on the other side. If you start moving the curve down the sliding scale of performance the company starts losing millions and millions.... just one tenth is HUGE!

I don't know... maybe it is because I am sitting on the sideline but I would be happy that I have a paycheck and can feed my family. These are the most unusual of times. You can feel bad for the next guy and pray they find work but be glad your company is not sitting on the verge of annihilation like GM.

Can you imagine a situation where a company pays employees to sit at home during a layoff. Now the entire workforce of GM is in jeopardy and without our help they would all be sitting at home.

Where is the outrage of the drivers (slugs) who are stealing from you on the other end?

Maybe all drivers should give up one or two days of pay a week to allow the drivers who are laid off to work? How do you think that would go over?

Sorry - I can't feel bad about you guys complaining about runners.

KARMA
Here is the thing - gunners and slugs will take care of themselves. They will get what is coming to them. Go out and do a fair days work for a fair days pay and you will get what is coming to you. It's all good!

[Livin the Dream?]

"...Maybe all drivers should give up one or two days of pay a week to allow the drivers who are laid off to work? How do you think that would go over?..."


In our center, where everyone is overloaded, you would be very, very surprised to see what percentage of drivers would welcome that.

[UPS Lifer]

Originally Posted by Livin the Dream?

"...Maybe all drivers should give up one or two days of pay a week to allow the drivers who are laid off to work? How do you think that would go over?..."


In our center, where everyone is overloaded, you would be very, very surprised to see what percentage of drivers would welcome that.

I think that is a wonderful sentiment - My hat is off to you and the drivers that feel that way. .... and it goes both ways - Management is already taking a hit on raises and increases and frozen jobs (which generally means more work).

Of course the next argument is the additional cost of benefits - pension - healthcare etc. etc. etc.

It would be a lot of work and effort and cost - but if it could be worked out - wouldn't that be a way to "split the baby"?

You have to remember that profit and fairness are the keys to success. The company needs to be profitable for everyone's sake and the employees need to be treated fairly.

Unfortunately in bad times the balance of power can lean toward the company. The balance between the company and the employees need to be maintained.

I am not hearing about a lot of layoffs. What is everyone's experience on this. Is it one or two per center? Or what?

[trplnkl]

With all due respect, and I feel you deserve much respect. A better way of splitting that baby would be for each driver to give up an hour or two of overtime so that additional driver can work.
Not everyone that works two hours over allowed is a slug, not all areas are time studied equally and not all time allowances are fair. I understand that the added expenses of an additional driver,(retirement,H&W etc.) drive up the cost more than and hours worth of OT, but there are other costs to over working drivers on a constant bases also. One person on worker's comp for six weeks can cost the company thousands of dollars. Some of those injuries would be avoided if the people were not worked 10-11-12 hours per day.
There are many things that should be considered when a company decides to have 5 people do a job that actually take 7 people to do.

[Jones]

Lifer makes an excellent point about balance, as for years now I've been touting the advantages of having at least one "producer" (I like that word) in each loop. When the slugs are crying about being heavy and that they're not gonna make 9.5 (aren't we always?), having a producer on staff means always having someone to come get a split from you just before the sun goes down . If all you have in your loop is other slugs you're stuck.
With a little training, you'll soon have your producer getting his split in the morning (they're usually there way before start time anyway) so you don't have to deal with a pesky meetpoint later in the day.

[hellfire]

Originally Posted by UPS Lifer

It is interesting to see this thread develop!

Someone decided that if all the "runners and gunners" BTW - (sidetrack) Where I came from drivers who were under-allowed were called "Producers" so I kind of chuckle when I hear runner/gunner (sorry!). Similar to calling a non producer a "slug" or "in the hole". I went to another district and the term was "in the weeds". Anyway....

Do you really think that getting the gunners to slow down is going to keep drivers from being laid off?

These gunners are keeping stops off you drivers that are complaining you are working over 9.5 hours!!! Just check out the other threads. With out them you get more work.

Do you really think the company can afford to add drivers during this depression? BTW - It ain't a recession!! LOL! Just look around at the closed businesses and empty homes.

If the delicate balance starts swinging the wrong way - The company starts MAJOR layoffs.

Performance is a bell curve. You have slugs on one side (2 hours over) and average drivers at the top (scratch + -) and gunners (2 hours under) on the other side. If you start moving the curve down the sliding scale of performance the company starts losing millions and millions.... just one tenth is HUGE!

I don't know... maybe it is because I am sitting on the sideline but I would be happy that I have a paycheck and can feed my family. These are the most unusual of times. You can feel bad for the next guy and pray they find work but be glad your company is not sitting on the verge of annihilation like GM.

Can you imagine a situation where a company pays employees to sit at home during a layoff. Now the entire workforce of GM is in jeopardy and without our help they would all be sitting at home.

Where is the outrage of the drivers (slugs) who are stealing from you on the other end?

Maybe all drivers should give up one or two days of pay a week to allow the drivers who are laid off to work? How do you think that would go over?

Sorry - I can't feel bad about you guys complaining about runners.

KARMA
Here is the thing - gunners and slugs will take care of themselves. They will get what is coming to them. Go out and do a fair days work for a fair days pay and you will get what is coming to you. It's all good!

```````````````````````````````````Kudos!!!!!!!!! as as 26 year veteran,, and a vile heathen runner i salute you for looking beyond the silly rhetoric and pointing out the reality of the delicate balance us lowely runners preserve

[SuperSup]

Originally Posted by stevetheupsguy

So you're saying that doing all of the methods, doesn't slow you down? Let's think about this a bit, tie. You go from maniac pace to sanity pace and you're saying there should be no change in SPORH?

I'm sure you're going to claim management rhetoric on this one, but following all the methods should INCREASE your SPORH; I was, as a driver, what you refer to as a runner and gunner. When I went on road sup, I was forced to really learn the 340's (memorized verbatim). The first time I was understaffed and had to run a route, I did it at a very reasonable pace and followed the methods, and was much more efficient. The problem is we don't really teach our drivers the methods like we should; just make sure you know your 10 point and 5 seeing habits.

The production rides that I have been on lately have all focused on solid use of our methods, many of them lasting up to a week, and everyone of them have jacked up their sporh while working at a "sanity pace", and most of them are thankful for it. And these are great drivers, I wouldn't trade any of them away.

As far as this thread goes, I tell my guys that because of the way things are, they'd better be taking their breaks and lunch, and with the new system I know when they are or aren't. Believe it or not, some management don't want to see their younger drivers sitting on the bench when they don't have to.

[Bubblehead]

Management rhetoric.

[hellfire]

Originally Posted by SuperSup

I'm sure you're going to claim management rhetoric on this one, but following all the methods should INCREASE your SPORH; I was, as a driver, what you refer to as a runner and gunner. When I went on road sup, I was forced to really learn the 340's (memorized verbatim). The first time I was understaffed and had to run a route, I did it at a very reasonable pace and followed the methods, and was much more efficient. The problem is we don't really teach our drivers the methods like we should; just make sure you know your 10 point and 5 seeing habits.

The production rides that I have been on lately have all focused on solid use of our methods, many of them lasting up to a week, and everyone of them have jacked up their sporh while working at a "sanity pace", and most of them are thankful for it. And these are great drivers, I wouldn't trade any of them away.

As far as this thread goes, I tell my guys that because of the way things are, they'd better be taking their breaks and lunch, and with the new system I know when they are or aren't. Believe it or not, some management don't want to see their younger drivers sitting on the bench when they don't have to.

=============== thats nonsense,,, there is no-way .. methods slow down production

[stevetheupsguy]

Originally Posted by SuperSup

I'm sure you're going to claim management rhetoric on this one, but following all the methods should INCREASE your SPORH; I was, as a driver, what you refer to as a runner and gunner. When I went on road sup, I was forced to really learn the 340's (memorized verbatim). The first time I was understaffed and had to run a route, I did it at a very reasonable pace and followed the methods, and was much more efficient. The problem is we don't really teach our drivers the methods like we should; just make sure you know your 10 point and 5 seeing habits.

The production rides that I have been on lately have all focused on solid use of our methods, many of them lasting up to a week, and everyone of them have jacked up their sporh while working at a "sanity pace", and most of them are thankful for it. And these are great drivers, I wouldn't trade any of them away.

As far as this thread goes, I tell my guys that because of the way things are, they'd better be taking their breaks and lunch, and with the new system I know when they are or aren't. Believe it or not, some management don't want to see their younger drivers sitting on the bench when they don't have to.

Originally Posted by hellfire

=============== thats nonsense,,, there is no-way .. methods slow down production

Sorry, I'm not taking the bait. Thanks anyways!



Keep fishing!

[SuperSup]

Originally Posted by stevetheupsguy

Sorry, I'm not taking the bait. Thanks anyways!



Keep fishing!

That's why i have 32 REAL UPSers, and you'll always be a cynical, underperforming (yeah, all those pics you take are on UPS' dime), employee. That's right, employee, not UPSer.

[trplnkl]

Originally Posted by SuperSup

That's why i have 32 REAL UPSers, and you'll always be a cynical, underperforming (yeah, all those pics you take are on UPS' dime), employee. That's right, employee, not UPSer.

Oh Damn Steve how are you going to ever live with yourself now? SuperSup just said you are not a REAL UPSer. Oh, the shame of it all.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by SuperSup

I'm sure you're going to claim management rhetoric on this one, but following all the methods should INCREASE your SPORH; I was, as a driver, what you refer to as a runner and gunner. When I went on road sup, I was forced to really learn the 340's (memorized verbatim). The first time I was understaffed and had to run a route, I did it at a very reasonable pace and followed the methods, and was much more efficient. The problem is we don't really teach our drivers the methods like we should; just make sure you know your 10 point and 5 seeing habits.

The production rides that I have been on lately have all focused on solid use of our methods, many of them lasting up to a week, and everyone of them have jacked up their sporh while working at a "sanity pace", and most of them are thankful for it. And these are great drivers, I wouldn't trade any of them away.

As far as this thread goes, I tell my guys that because of the way things are, they'd better be taking their breaks and lunch, and with the new system I know when they are or aren't. Believe it or not, some management don't want to see their younger drivers sitting on the bench when they don't have to.

You were a "runner and gunner", but you increased your SPORH by keeping the bulkhead door closed, shutting off the engine and taking the keys with you at each stop, and taking your full hour lunch instead of just recording it in the board and while you delivered 30 more housecalls? You must be the sorriest "producer" that ever wore a brown uniform, and I'm sure your fellow drivers thought you were a complete joke. Some things never change, eh?

[NHDRVR]

Originally Posted by hellfire

=============== thats nonsense,,, there is no-way .. methods slow down production

Ten years ago I never thought these words would come out of my mouth but the best way to do this job, and increase your income, is to simply follow the methods.
Like most of the new drivers I had my time when my feet weren't touching the ground and, looking back, I'm surprised I didn't have a serious knee or ankle injury.
It took a talking to from a senior driver to get me thinking about how long I was probably going to be doing this job and if I wanted to be walking up-right when I decide to leave.
'Hiding in the weeds' is the term we use up here and it is pretty apt. I am seeing a lot of 2 hours under and over in some of the previous responses and our swings aren't that great in our center. The biggest you see is about a buck and a half over or, at the most, an hour under. Maybe someone who knows more about the time allowances can explain it but there are a number of us who believe that OR's follow the driver and not the route. A cover driver who does the mall can scratch it while the regular driver is about an hour over. This same cover driver, it turns out, is an hour under on just about every route he covers. This is an anomaly since the allowances are different on every route ( I know the hour could be just cutting his lunch). In other words, I think that they have a number in mind for every driver based on past performance regardless of the route they are on.
This is where it's important to not go so damn fast all of the time because when you finally realize you can't keep that pace up forever you draw way too much attention when you finally slow down. Besides, I always get a laugh when one of these 'runners' complains when they always get a split.

[UPS Lifer]

Originally Posted by trplnkl

With all due respect, and I feel you deserve much respect. A better way of splitting that baby would be for each driver to give up an hour or two of overtime so that additional driver can work.
Not everyone that works two hours over allowed is a slug, not all areas are time studied equally and not all time allowances are fair. I understand that the added expenses of an additional driver,(retirement,H&W etc.) drive up the cost more than and hours worth of OT, but there are other costs to over working drivers on a constant bases also. One person on worker's comp for six weeks can cost the company thousands of dollars. Some of those injuries would be avoided if the people were not worked 10-11-12 hours per day.
There are many things that should be considered when a company decides to have 5 people do a job that actually take 7 people to do.

I absolutely agree with you. There is more than one way to "split the baby". Each operation must find the right balance.

And you hit a good point - there are other costs - some are hidden costs. How about attitude? You described situations that affect attitude. This can be a hidden cost that is hard to measure or it can hit the operation in the safety picture which is easier to identify.

[Livin the Dream?]

Be Safe..know the acronyms.. follow the rules... hurry up....don't falsify paperwork... take abuse... report abuse... live the dream... Mark all misloaded NDAs as "future"... we are one big family.. miss your kids last soccer game... make sure your shirt is pressed... why couldn't you get the 370 stops out?... start at 8:30am hopefully.. attend PCM... Hit the numbers... be safe... Hurry up... Are you sure you are sick?... lose your job for clipping a mirror... hurry up.. slow down... take your lunch... well, not really, just say you did... Get your head out of your butt!!... don't lie... lie, just don't get causght... only lie when told to... we've removed the reverse gear from your truck... PAS is your friend... 75% misloads... qvc junkies... be safe... know all the sayings so we don't get sued...

No, I just don't understand why anyone would be upset at all....

[UpstateNYUPSer]

Hoax, you are right--I also like the new and improved BBAG.

[Squeeze the Grapes]

The only reason you work is to make money. Obviously, the slower you go the more you make. One person may be made an example of to get the sheep to fall in line but you can't be held accountable for performance. When this happens you will see all the wimpy guys fold. How this wimps/heroes are an authority or parental figure at home is beyond me. Stay away from them. Management says boo to them and they tuck their tail between the legs. Practice your methods and do what they want. Managerial incompetance is guaranteed overtime. Don't plan anything for M-F. Patience is key. We had a crusher terminated because he was caught with his engine running, door open, Running, talking on the phone, etc..because he was going down the wrong road at the wrong time. It happens. Be perturbed by some of the responses your receiving. UPS drivers rank among the top 10% of most stressed out people in the workplace. Runners hurt themselves, hourlies, and management by putting a band aid-on a short term fix. For instance runners hurt everyone because, Liberty Mutual studies show if these guys make it to retirement they should be in a walker (they are more suceptable to injury and accidents), the heat falls on the driver and management taking over on the routes to get those expected numbers. Finally as a short term, management always requires sups pick up the understaffed hourly slack. They are more than likely going on the road. These aadd drivers allow management easier falsification of records for potential progression, keeping of their jobs, or up unitl this year bonuses. Integrity in the Ups handbook doesn't apply in package.

[stevetheupsguy]

Originally Posted by SuperSup

That's why i have 32 REAL UPSers, and you'll always be a cynical, underperforming (yeah, all those pics you take are on UPS' dime), employee. That's right, employee, not UPSer.

Originally Posted by trplnkl

Oh Damn Steve how are you going to ever live with yourself now? SuperSup just said you are not a REAL UPSer. Oh, the shame of it all.

I've gone from least best, to just a plain old, employee. You really know how to hurt a guy.