FedEx Home wins round in Unionization efforts

[Livin the Dream?]

Hoax - I appreciate that. I think.

I wanted to say this as well - to anyone who bases their beliefs on what defines an independent contractor vs. an employee on information obtained solely from the posts here, union propaganda, and newspaper reports, is simply misinformed. I'd go so far as to say COMPLETELY misinformed. It is just a touch more involved than being "forced" to wear a uniform, and being "forced" to actually deliver FedEx packages.

Before you argue, familiarize yourself with the true, FULL, IN CONTEXT definition of what an independent contractor is. There is no question that FedEx ground workers are clearly ICs.

And a serious, non-rhetorical question - has anyone here (other than the obvious "we must unionize FedEx NOW because they are CHEATING" crowd) ever met a FedEx employee that wanted to be able to join a union? SPECIFICALLY want to join a union? I NEVER have.

[evilleace]

Yes but if you buy a route for $100,000 some of that goes to fed-ex and I would sure as hell love to see you try to make $100,000 a yr on that route specailly after vehicle maintenance the lease on the truck gas benefits for yourself not to mention no retirement package yah that sounds like fed-ex treats them fair to me.

[Livin the Dream?]

Originally Posted by evilleace

Yes but if you buy a route for $100,000 some of that goes to fed-ex and I would sure as hell love to see you try to make $100,000 a yr on that route specailly after vehicle maintenance the lease on the truck gas benefits for yourself not to mention no retirement package yah that sounds like fed-ex treats them fair to me.

With all due respect, you are misinformed.

[DS]

I don't claim to know a lot about fedex ground contractors,but it seems to me it's like buying a coffee truck with a route.If fedex wants to retain thier respected brand,they need to stop outsourcing.

[Livin the Dream?]

Originally Posted by DS

I don't claim to know a lot about fedex ground contractors,but it seems to me it's like buying a coffee truck with a route.If fedex wants to retain thier respected brand,they need to stop outsourcing.

Funny thing is, though, you have the closest comparison I have seen thus far.

[JimJimmyJames]

If I am not mistaken, in order to avoid in the future the question of, "is a single individual who contracts for FedEx Ground indeed an independent contractor, or actually an employee dressed up as a contractor", FedEx will be requiring that you must own multiple routes.

Why? From the way I see it, it is much more plausible to say that the, lets say five, guys who work for a contractor, use his trucks, wear the uniforms he provides, etc. are employed by said contractor and not by FedEx Ground.

Sure, those five guys could unionize, but is that realistic?

What Fedex Ground would really have to worry about is if their contractors, who will be more like franchisees, will band together, in their own union of sorts, and demand better contract terms.

Still, I suspect Fred Smith would rather deal with that than a company of union employees.

[bluehdmc]

To use the coffee truck analogy: You buy the coffee truck and route. After you've been running YOUR ROUTE (after all you paid for it). You find you've got some customers that want donuts but the people you buy your coffee from won't let you sell donuts. Or you have 1 stop that's way out in the boondocks, it costs you $4.00 to drive there for a $1.50 sale, a net loss of $3.50. If you were REALLY INDEPENDENT
you could stop going there.
Or you could do what some of those independent contractors do, sheet it as closed because it's too hard to find. (This has happenned to me, my address has been here almost 50yr, but you couldn't find it with a gps.)

Also Living the Dream, if you think Fedex's model is so much better, why are you working for UPS?

[Livin the Dream?]

Originally Posted by bluehdmc

To use the coffee truck analogy: You buy the coffee truck and route. After you've been running YOUR ROUTE (after all you paid for it). You find you've got some customers that want donuts but the people you buy your coffee from won't let you sell donuts. Or you have 1 stop that's way out in the boondocks, it costs you $4.00 to drive there for a $1.50 sale, a net loss of $3.50. If you were REALLY INDEPENDENT
you could stop going there.
Or you could do what some of those independent contractors do, sheet it as closed because it's too hard to find. (This has happenned to me, my address has been here almost 50yr, but you couldn't find it with a gps.)

Also Living the Dream, if you think Fedex's model is so much better, why are you working for UPS?

Three things -

1. There is a world of difference, a galaxy of difference, between being an independent (Joe's Delivery Service & Lawnmower Repair) and being an independent contractor (FedEx Ground).

2. I never claimed any one model was better / worse than another. Anywhere. I did say it was a valid, legal model. And, if I didn't before, I meant to.

3. You state "To use the coffee truck analogy: You buy the coffee truck and route. After you've been running YOUR ROUTE (after all you paid for it). You find you've got some customers that want donuts but the people you buy your coffee from won't let you sell donuts."

I was waiting for something similar but better, but your anti-analogy (?) will work. If you purchased a route to sell coffee, knowing that you were to only sell coffee, then there should be no concern that you cannot sell donuts. It is a coffee company.

If I were hired as an independent contractor by say, Exxon, to go around & clean all the gas stations they have, then my job, what I have contracted to do, is go clean all the exxon gas stations. Just because I am an independent contractor does not, in any way, give me the right to say "ah, the hell with it, today I'm going to go PAINT all the exxon stations". The definition of "Independent Contractor" has nowhere in it the right to do as you choose, and was never meant to be such. It is contractually cooperating with outside individuals/companies to do a specific job, in a specific way.

[JimJimmyJames]

I think the rub might be, can I deliver packages for some other company in my spare time, using my truck? I won't use the uniform I buy from you or use your name, I just want to deliver packages on Sunday for another business.

I would assume that would be ok since if I had, using the cleaning company analogy, a contract to clean Exxon's bathrooms I hardly would think that they care if I clean Sunoco's too.

I mean I don't care if my plumber works on a FedEx guy's house too even though I contracted for him to remodel my bathroom.

If a contractor must work exclusively for the company that contracted him, can he really be defined as an independent, as we all understand the term?

[Livin the Dream?]

Originally Posted by JimJimmyJames

I think the rub might be, can I deliver packages for some other company in my spare time, using my truck? I won't use the uniform I buy from you or use your name, I just want to deliver packages on Sunday for another business.

I would assume that would be ok since if I had, using the cleaning company analogy, a contract to clean Exxon's bathrooms I hardly would think that they care if I clean Sunoco's too.

I mean I don't care if my plumber works on a FedEx guy's house too even though I contracted for him to remodel my bathroom.

If a contractor must work exclusively for the company that contracted him, can he really be defined as an indendent, as we all understand the term?

Yes - non-compete / non-disclosure.

[JimJimmyJames]

That would be the opening to challenge the veracity of the model.

It may all boil down to the "walks like a duck" arguement .

[BLACKBOX]

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

[Livin the Dream?]

Originally Posted by BLACKBOX

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

DUCK!!!!

[bluehdmc]

Originally Posted by BLACKBOX

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

Maybe there prices/profits are determined by contract. I often sell things on ebay, have used the ebay calculator for shipping expenses, and I'd go to my local UPS store, (was formerly a mailboxes, etc.) and the price would be higher.
So last week I used the UPS time/cost calculator and got a price to ship something and the price was $9.62. I took it to the UPS store and the cost was $11.15. Going over the details, the cost to ship was the same, the fuel surcharge was higher and there was a delivery area surcharge that was $1.30 more, then there is a processing fee. of $.20. A total of $1.53.

I called the UPS store customer service # and was told they could CHARGE WHAT THEY WANTED.

I shipped something else the following week and went to a different UPS store. This time the only difference was the $.20 processing fee.Guess who's getting my business in the future? I can live with that, but to hide the charges in the fuel surcharge, (granted the difference there was $.03) and the delivery area surcharge is what ticked me off. Plus I've previously had to dig in my pocket because I can't accurately estimate the costs. Bad enough people say the costs are too high, what started me checking was someone emailed me and said the 1st item should only cost $5.99 to ship across the country.

[Hoaxster]

Originally Posted by BLACKBOX

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

One problem - desire to work for UPS.
These owners are self-employed entrepreneurs.
As far as I know, no The UPS Store owner has expressed any desire to be a UPS employee.

[LED]

Originally Posted by Livin the Dream?

Imagine for a moment -

The route you have been driving for years. You build it, you caress your customers with love, you build it, you know it, and you feel it is yours.

Imagine that the route, the run, the territory is in fact yours. Towns A, B, C and D? You run them. Anyone wants to send a package there, you are the one they MUST deal with. And, when you retire, you can place a value on that route, based on multiples of annual income, and you can sell it. Hell, you can hire another driver to run it while you take a cut.

Sound great? That is FedEx.

It is also the definition of what an independent contractor is.

The only people questioning the legality of FedEx's ic MODEL IS.......drum roll...... UPS and the Teamsters. The people that make the laws - you know, that define if it is legal or not? They have already said it is legal.

Only UPS and the Teamsters are muddying the waters. And that makes us look like Tonya Harding (to paraphrase from an excellent post above)

If I have to pay $100k to get a FedEx ground route here locally, the FedEx employees are not in need, nor do they want, a Union.

And that is the way I see it.

My humble opinion:

The fedEx Ground routes that are in business districts may very well be profitable. The problem occurs if your major customers move their business to town G, which is not your territory.

Maybe FedEx ground provided such good service that you helped your main customer outgrow their facillities, and they have no choice but to move.

So then you are left with a bunch of residential deliveries spaced far apart. Your route then becomes not so profitable, and certainly not worth $100K.

So yes you can grow your route, but only inside your territory.

True independent contractors do not have to wear uniforms, can use their vehicles for other things, and do not have time constraints placed on them. If I am wrong about these rules/constraints let me know. Thats they way I understand it.

As far as being legal, it is now, but who knows how long? There are laws in the works:

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1108/112008cdam1.htm

[Sleeve_meet_Heart]

Originally Posted by BLACKBOX

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

You are wrong. At least here, the UPS store can charge whatever they want. One situation: someone came into the customer counter and wanted to ship something to Japan. It cost $480 at the counter, and almost $3000 at the local UPS store. They are (to say the least) crooks.

[BLACKBOX]

Originally Posted by Sleeve_meet_Heart

You are wrong. At least here, the UPS store can charge whatever they want. One situation: someone came into the customer counter and wanted to ship something to Japan. It cost $480 at the counter, and almost $3000 at the local UPS store. They are (to say the least) crooks.

OK..I'll admit it. I thought all UPS stores were uniformly priced. But you have to agree that UPS must have some sort of pricing standard they have to follow, whether they follow it or not whose to enforce it?

I wonder how UPS Store prices compare to FDX Kinko's?

[bluehdmc]

Originally Posted by BLACKBOX

OK..I'll admit it. I thought all UPS stores were uniformly priced. But you have to agree that UPS must have some sort of pricing standard they have to follow, whether they follow it or not whose to enforce it?

I wonder how UPS Store prices compare to FDX Kinko's?

As I stated in a previous post, I contacted the customer service line for the UPS store. 800-789-4623. I was told they could charge whatever they wanted. I was also told I could place a complaint about overpricing, which I did. They also told me they wouldn't investigate until they got a number of complaints.
I'm sure the average Joe on the street, wouldn't even be aware he was getting ripped off.

A UPS store is a franchise. With that you get advertising support, marketing surveys. (they aren't going to put a franchise in an area where there is not enough traffic to support it. Or too close to another franchisee.
I used to be a mechanic and bought tools from franchisees, Snap-on, Mac, and Matco. They had to carry their franchise's tools. If the franchise didn't make a particular tool, they would often procure one from another source although snap-on wouldn't have a mac tool. I did have one get some broken ones replaced, probably because he didn't want the mac guy to stop where I worked. They could also run the route the way they wanted. If they wanted to take a Friday off they could. Can the Fedex IC's do that? They may be called "independent" but are they?

[Livin the Dream?]

Originally Posted by LED

True independent contractors do not have to wear uniforms, can use their vehicles for other things, and do not have time constraints placed on them. If I am wrong about these rules/constraints let me know. Thats they way I understand it.

Good post - but with all due respect, you are in fact wrong.

An independent contractor may in fact have more restrictions placed on them than an employee.

To be hired as an independent contractor, all of the requirements are up-front. You will deliver between this and this time. You will wear a uniform. You will not disclose proprietary information, and you will not also operate a competing business. All these requirements are specifics required by the company contracting the independent. If you agree with the terms, you try to get the contract. If you don't like the terms, you don't go for it. Very simple.

As an aside, I would almost guarantee you there is nowhere in the contract that says an independent contractor cannot use his truck for whatever he wants. What I would bet on, however, is that the contract has two separate items such as the following;

1. All vehicles will be of model year XX and newer, white, and have FedEx logos XYZ placed permanently on the exterior.

2. The FedEx logo may only be used in the commission of FedEx work.

Or something like that.

[Sleeve_meet_Heart]

Originally Posted by BLACKBOX

OK..I'll admit it. I thought all UPS stores were uniformly priced. But you have to agree that UPS must have some sort of pricing standard they have to follow, whether they follow it or not whose to enforce it?

I wonder how UPS Store prices compare to FDX Kinko's?

No, I will not agree. UPS stores, at least in this area, are held to no pricing contracts or obligations. Only customer counter and UPS-affiliated services are held to UPS pricing guidelines.

Could it be different elsewhere? Sure. I'm only speaking from experience. I doubt it though.

However, good luck finding out for sure if UPS Stores are allowed to charge whatever they want when you ask them- I'm sure they don't advertise that or admit it! They are generally, like I said, crooks.

[Brown287]

LTD you must be a real joy come christmas and other holidays seeing that you come off as a selfish "me" orinented person. The problem with your coments in regards to Fed-Ex employees having the ability to unionize is that are completely caught up in UPS vs. Fed-Ex B.S.. If people who deliver Fed-Ex volume have low pay and zero benefits who do you think picks up the slack? Tax payers do, they dont have medical so do they just not get sick. No, we cover that to. If they dont quite make enough for rent, who covers that? We do, they dont make enough to send thier kids to college, who pays for that? We do, and the list goes on and on and on. So as a heavily taxed citizen of this country I think that companies and people like you should open up thier wallets and cover my share. However thats when people like you all of a sudden run and hide. Fed-Ex is a just another example of companies trying to pocket more profit while giveing thier employees less pay. So I guess now UPS not only has to subzidize the Post Office but Fed-Ex as well. So maybe you can answer me,why it is Fed-Ex cant compete on the same level as UPS LTD?

[Livin the Dream?]

Originally Posted by Brown287

LTD you must be a real joy come christmas and other holidays seeing that you come off as a selfish "me" orinented person. The problem with your coments in regards to Fed-Ex employees having the ability to unionize is that are completely caught up in UPS vs. Fed-Ex B.S.. If people who deliver Fed-Ex volume have low pay and zero benefits who do you think picks up the slack? Tax payers do, they dont have medical so do they just not get sick. No, we cover that to. If they dont quite make enough for rent, who covers that? We do, they dont make enough to send thier kids to college, who pays for that? We do, and the list goes on and on and on. So as a heavily taxed citizen of this country I think that companies and people like you should open up thier wallets and cover my share. However thats when people like you all of a sudden run and hide. Fed-Ex is a just another example of companies trying to pocket more profit while giveing thier employees less pay. So I guess now UPS not only has to subzidize the Post Office but Fed-Ex as well. So maybe you can answer me,why it is Fed-Ex cant compete on the same level as UPS LTD?

Now, without a doubt, I have heard it all. UPS/Teamsters is not only trying to save the poor souls over at FedEx who are treated so poorly they don't even have the money/energy to complain themselves, but UPS/Teamsters is doing this, out of the goodness of its' heart, to save the entire US economy.

I appreciate your clearing that up. Baaaaaa.

[JimJimmyJames]

Originally Posted by Livin the Dream?

Good post - but with all due respect, you are in fact wrong.

An independent contractor may in fact have more restrictions placed on them than an employee.

To be hired as an independent contractor, all of the requirements are up-front. You will deliver between this and this time. You will wear a uniform. You will not disclose proprietary information, and you will not also operate a competing business. All these requirements are specifics required by the company contracting the independent. If you agree with the terms, you try to get the contract. If you don't like the terms, you don't go for it. Very simple.

As an aside, I would almost guarantee you there is nowhere in the contract that says an independent contractor cannot use his truck for whatever he wants. What I would bet on, however, is that the contract has two separate items such as the following;

1. All vehicles will be of model year XX and newer, white, and have FedEx logos XYZ placed permanently on the exterior.

2. The FedEx logo may only be used in the commission of FedEx work.

Or something like that.

Though I won't be as dramatic, duck!

What you are describing for all the world sounds to me more like an employee than an independent contractor.

And, as I have stated before, since FedEx realizes they are walking a very fine line, they are changing their contractor model.

[trplnkl]

Originally Posted by Sleeve_meet_Heart

No, I will not agree. UPS stores, at least in this area, are held to no pricing contracts or obligations. Only customer counter and UPS-affiliated services are held to UPS pricing guidelines.

Could it be different elsewhere? Sure. I'm only speaking from experience. I doubt it though.

However, good luck finding out for sure if UPS Stores are allowed to charge whatever they want when you ask them- I'm sure they don't advertise that or admit it! They are generally, like I said, crooks.

I don't know about the pricing structure, but have been told several times that a UPS Store can not charge a customer for dropping off an ARS or internet package, however an independent customer counter can charge what ever they want for that privilege.