*********** warning letters

[UPS Lifer]

Originally Posted by brownrodster

LOL. Our whole center is out of wack. 25 year old time studies and if you are 1 hour over that is considered doing a very good job.

That list to be analyzed by a TSO must be very long.

If you have 25 year old TS, you have a district that does not care about bonus!

[dannyboy]

So to get good time studies, we would need to vote bonus back in, get them done, then vote it back out?

Nothing like a company that is really interested in knowing just how well its employees are actuallly performing.

d

[soberups]

I could care less about timestudies from a bonus perspective. I believe the bonus system should be eliminated anyway.

The problem is that UPS is going to dispatch you based upon your plan day rather than your paid day.

We have a lot of guys caught in the "9.5 straddle". Their allowance is between 1.5 and 2 hrs off...so in order for them to get in under 9.5 hours, they have to be dispatched on paper as an underload. And God help the manager who dares to dispatch an underload, the I.E. goons will rip his heart out, eat it, and crap in the hole.

Result? Chronic 9.5 grievances and production harrassment.

We also have drivers whose allowances are so bad that it is physically impossible to force what the company percieves as 8 hrs of work into their package car. It wont fit. They go out every day totally bulked out, so they are fighting the load all day which puts them even further behind an already impossible production standard. Instead of loading the car for maximum efficiency and productivity...we are cramming it as full as possible in a desperate attempt to avoid the false perception of an underload. Service, safety and common sense no longer matter, the only thing that matters is not having "7.99" or less show up on a WOR the next day.

UPS is the place where we try every day to force the square peg of the time allowance into the round hole of reality. And managements only tool is a hammer.

[pretzel_man]

Originally Posted by soberups

I could care less about timestudies from a bonus perspective. I believe the bonus system should be eliminated anyway.

The problem is that UPS is going to dispatch you based upon your plan day rather than your paid day.

We have a lot of guys caught in the "9.5 straddle". Their allowance is between 1.5 and 2 hrs off...so in order for them to get in under 9.5 hours, they have to be dispatched on paper as an underload. And God help the manager who dares to dispatch an underload, the I.E. goons will rip his heart out, eat it, and crap in the hole.

Result? Chronic 9.5 grievances and production harrassment.

We also have drivers whose allowances are so bad that it is physically impossible to force what the company percieves as 8 hrs of work into their package car. It wont fit. They go out every day totally bulked out, so they are fighting the load all day which puts them even further behind an already impossible production standard. Instead of loading the car for maximum efficiency and productivity...we are cramming it as full as possible in a desperate attempt to avoid the false perception of an underload. Service, safety and common sense no longer matter, the only thing that matters is not having "7.99" or less show up on a WOR the next day.

UPS is the place where we try every day to force the square peg of the time allowance into the round hole of reality. And managements only tool is a hammer.

Sober,

You are correct about the "double whammy" drivers (routes). Those are the ones that are more than 1.5 hours over allowed. For those routes, the only way to keep the paid day below 9.5, is to plan less than 8. Both cases are no-no's and will show up on a report.

For a moment however, lets put those aside. I agree that our dispatch plans don't work properly there.

Now however, we have the remainder of the drivers, and at least for UPS as a whole, the remaining drivers are the vast, vast majority.

Its not true as you state that the dispatch is only based on the planned day. Have someone show you the dispatch system. In the system, the supervisor is supposed to key in the average over / under allowed for each route. The dispatch is then done by PAID day not by Planned Day.

Therefore, a 1 hour overallowed route will show a 9.5 plan in the dispatch when only 8.5 hours of work is dispatched. Of course, this only gives the dispatcher a 1/2 hour window to work with here without showing up on a report.

While the methodology is not perfect, its still an excellent methodology.

P-Man

[upsgrunt]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Sober,

You are correct about the "double whammy" drivers (routes). Those are the ones that are more than 1.5 hours over allowed. For those routes, the only way to keep the paid day below 9.5, is to plan less than 8. Both cases are no-no's and will show up on a report.

For a moment however, lets put those aside. I agree that our dispatch plans don't work properly there.

Now however, we have the remainder of the drivers, and at least for UPS as a whole, the remaining drivers are the vast, vast majority.

Its not true as you state that the dispatch is only based on the planned day. Have someone show you the dispatch system. In the system, the supervisor is supposed to key in the average over / under allowed for each route. The dispatch is then done by PAID day not by Planned Day.

Therefore, a 1 hour overallowed route will show a 9.5 plan in the dispatch when only 8.5 hours of work is dispatched. Of course, this only gives the dispatcher a 1/2 hour window to work with here without showing up on a report.

While the methodology is not perfect, its still an excellent methodology.

P-Man

So according to this logic, if I average an hour under every day I will get more work because my on road time is down? Lifer said that UPS is wary to increase allowances because human nature would take over and drivers would slow down to meet previous over/unders. Where's the middle ground here? If you run over you are a slug who isn't carrying their share; if you run bonus you get more work so your on road hours are "in line" with what UPS thinks they should be. I guess if you are not good you are screwed and when you are good you are screwed as well.

[rocket man]

sphore shnore not matter what time you get done. You say I had a good day no wrecks no lates nomissed ill try to do better tommorow.see ya . annd remember you dont even have to say that much.

[JustTired]

Originally Posted by soberups

I could care less about timestudies from a bonus perspective. I believe the bonus system should be eliminated anyway.

The problem is that UPS is going to dispatch you based upon your plan day rather than your paid day.

We have a lot of guys caught in the "9.5 straddle". Their allowance is between 1.5 and 2 hrs off...so in order for them to get in under 9.5 hours, they have to be dispatched on paper as an underload. And God help the manager who dares to dispatch an underload, the I.E. goons will rip his heart out, eat it, and crap in the hole.

Result? Chronic 9.5 grievances and production harrassment.

We also have drivers whose allowances are so bad that it is physically impossible to force what the company percieves as 8 hrs of work into their package car. It wont fit. They go out every day totally bulked out, so they are fighting the load all day which puts them even further behind an already impossible production standard. Instead of loading the car for maximum efficiency and productivity...we are cramming it as full as possible in a desperate attempt to avoid the false perception of an underload. Service, safety and common sense no longer matter, the only thing that matters is not having "7.99" or less show up on a WOR the next day.

UPS is the place where we try every day to force the square peg of the time allowance into the round hole of reality. And managements only tool is a hammer.

Excellent post! And in my opinion, right on the money. If corporate only reads one thing posted on this site, this should be it.

In a nutshell, it sums up the whole reality of where the numbers have gone in the past several years. From a useful tool to that was based in reality, to something that not only frustrates the drivers...but is detremental to the company in the long run.

Just what good are allowances if they don't reflect anything close to reality? Who is being fooled, here? It's not the drivers. It's not the local management team. Both know that the numbers are bogus. So again, I ask "Who is being fooled?"

[pretzel_man]

Originally Posted by upsgrunt

So according to this logic, if I average an hour under every day I will get more work because my on road time is down? Lifer said that UPS is wary to increase allowances because human nature would take over and drivers would slow down to meet previous over/unders. Where's the middle ground here? If you run over you are a slug who isn't carrying their share; if you run bonus you get more work so your on road hours are "in line" with what UPS thinks they should be. I guess if you are not good you are screwed and when you are good you are screwed as well.

Let me clarify...

In the dispatching systems, the performance on the WOR is what is used to determine the dispatch (in most cases), not the work measurement alone.

So, if you are 1 hour under allowed today, you will get 10 hours of planned work in order to make a 9 hour paid day. If you remain 1 hour under allowed, you will not start getting more work.

If you go to 1.2 hours under allowed, in theory yes, you do get more work in order to stay at the same paid day.

P-Man

[Bubblehead]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Sober,

You are correct about the "double whammy" drivers (routes). Those are the ones that are more than 1.5 hours over allowed. For those routes, the only way to keep the paid day below 9.5, is to plan less than 8. Both cases are no-no's and will show up on a report.

For a moment however, lets put those aside. I agree that our dispatch plans don't work properly there.

Now however, we have the remainder of the drivers, and at least for UPS as a whole, the remaining drivers are the vast, vast majority.

Its not true as you state that the dispatch is only based on the planned day. Have someone show you the dispatch system. In the system, the supervisor is supposed to key in the average over / under allowed for each route. The dispatch is then done by PAID day not by Planned Day.

Therefore, a 1 hour overallowed route will show a 9.5 plan in the dispatch when only 8.5 hours of work is dispatched. Of course, this only gives the dispatcher a 1/2 hour window to work with here without showing up on a report.

While the methodology is not perfect, its still an excellent methodology.

P-Man

The translation here is the inherent problem with this company IMO.
Rather than fixing the underlying problem we continually treat the symptoms. Day after week after month after year....

[upsgrunt]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Let me clarify...

In the dispatching systems, the performance on the WOR is what is used to determine the dispatch (in most cases), not the work measurement alone.

So, if you are 1 hour under allowed today, you will get 10 hours of planned work in order to make a 9 hour paid day. If you remain 1 hour under allowed, you will not start getting more work.

If you go to 1.2 hours under allowed, in theory yes, you do get more work in order to stay at the same paid day.

P-Man

So the reward for extra effort is extra work?

[brownrodster]

Originally Posted by UPS Lifer

If you have 25 year old TS, you have a district that does not care about bonus!

We were supposed to get new ones when we switch over to PAS/EDD but they decided to keep us old school and not give us PAS in the forseeable future.

[pretzel_man]

Originally Posted by upsgrunt

So the reward for extra effort is extra work?

If performance (as measured by over / under) goes up, the choice is extra work or less pay.

P-Man

[QKRSTKR]

Originally Posted by upsgrunt

So the reward for extra effort is extra work?

But some drivers never get this. They keep crying about 10 hour "planned days" but are always in between 8 & 8.5. Then cry in the morning about the extra 10 stops they gave them cause they're still not working 9 hrs. Never ceases to amaze me.

[UPS Lifer]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead

The translation here is the inherent problem with this company IMO.
Rather than fixing the underlying problem we continually treat the symptoms. Day after week after month after year....

Sorry bu your analysis is way to simple....

The system is imperfect and will never be perfect.

Each route or area is different from the next. No two routes are exactly alike. This means that though one driver has a 9 hour planned day, his planned day is different from another driver's planned day. Whether it is stops, type of stops, number of packages, miles driven, density, city or country.... each route is different and cannot be compared by time allotted to complete the job.

Then to make matters more complicated for dispatch purposes, you have the driver's make-up to factor into the equation. (Experience - temperament - skill set - etc , etc.)

Therefore - one driver cannot look at another driver and compare the workload to his/her own situation. Some drivers may feel their 9 hour load is harder than your 10 hour load! They may have a million ways to justify their thinking.

All your dispatch team can do is look at each driver and assign work to that driver based on what that driver can handle within the guidelines and goals that have been established for the driver, group of drivers and overall center.

[dilligaf]

Originally Posted by QKRSTKR

But some drivers never get this. They keep crying about 10 hour "planned days" but are always in between 8 & 8.5. Then cry in the morning about the extra 10 stops they gave them cause they're still not working 9 hrs. Never ceases to amaze me.

I wish we had this problem. We get 8 hr planned days and are not getting done until 10 hrs. Last night I clocked out at 8:45 on a rural rte. 115 stops/227 pcs/140 miles. I figured I would be the last one in. NOT! There were at least 3 other rtes still out. This is plain ridiculous. We have gone from 17 bidded rtes to 13. And they are getting 9.5 greivances right and left. Even senior drivers that have never filed a greivance in their career are filing. I worked 4 days last week and all 4 days were over. My sup told me yesterday morning, 'you won't be getting any help'. 1 1/2 hrs penalty pay, I'll take it. As far as I am concerned it is stupid, stupid, stupid.

[dannyboy]

But some drivers never get this. They keep crying about 10 hour "planned days" but are always in between 8 & 8.5. Then cry in the morning about the extra 10 stops they gave them cause they're still not working 9 hrs. Never ceases to amaze me.

And its those same drivers that get on the car an hour before start time, take a very short lunch if any, and never have the time to help someone that is blown away.

Your right, they dont get it.

d

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by dannyboy

So to get good time studies, we would need to vote bonus back in, get them done, then vote it back out?

Nothing like a company that is really interested in knowing just how well its employees are actuallly performing.

d

Danny I don't think the company really cares as much about the time study as they do SPORH.

[dannyboy]

But then why do they target the ones that are an hour or more over for action?

IT seems like they use both to their advantage, but can only use one for discipline?

In my business, if something is not working right, it is in my best interests to see to it that it works well. P man said it well

While the methodology is not perfect, its still an excellent methodology.

And while it might never be perfect, it could still be much better than it is.

Its like getting a girl to go out with you because you promised a great meal and entertainment, and then taking her for pizza and beer while watching the ball game. It might be OK, but less than it could be.

So I agree, it is an excellent methodology. But to the drivers that are dealing with the faults that remain un-fixed, the Ferrari looks and acts more like a Yugo. OR like running the whole field with the ball, only to lay down on the one yard line thinking you scored.

Remember, perception is reality, even if it is a mis-perception.

d

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by upsgrunt

So the reward for extra effort is extra work?

If I'm reading your response correctly and I think I am if:

A guy is running two hours over its a bad timestudy.

If the guy is running an hour under its extra effort?

[upsgrunt]

Originally Posted by tieguy

If I'm reading your response correctly and I think I am if:

A guy is running two hours over its a bad timestudy.

If the guy is running an hour under its extra effort?

Maybe-
I'm just wondering about a middle ground here where it is fair for everyone. Where drivers who do everything by the book and have great methods don't need to be dispatched less than 8 to be on road less than 9.5., and drivers who can run bonus don't have to be added to in order to show on road hours at 9 and to bring the center or district numbers up to averages that keep the big wigs in Atlanta happy.

Our center runs bonus-don't know why, but we make UPS look good. I'm not saying we work harder than anyone else, but as a whole, our center beats the averages. Should an over 9.5 dispatch be grievable even though the on road time was less than 9.5? The union and UPS says you are getting paid punch to punch, and no you can't. The dispatch is how long the route SHOULD have taken. Why was bonus ever offered if not for the incentive of getting in early? You know- customers get their packages earlier, and the local sort gets volume earlier, if the only outcome is to add more work.

Tie, when you finish your work ahead of 5 or 6 oclock are you expected to do more work because you are efficient for that day? Or if you have to stay late because you have too much to do is it because your methods and time management are sloppy? Or do you just go home early that day and enjoy your family?

I'm not trying to fight or bait anyone here- just want an honest, middle ground where everyone can benefit. My opinions may be wrong, but it doesn't hurt to wonder.

Steve

[Jones]

Originally Posted by tieguy

Danny I don't think the company really cares as much about the time study as they do SPORH.

I don't know about that Tie. Right now in my building every driver who runs more than hour over is getting targeted. The DM literally has a bulletin board in his office with the name of every driver who ran more than hour over the day before and what action is being taken to correct it. It's darn near the #1 issue that the CMs have to answer for when they go upstairs for their meeting.
This same DM had a building wide pcm earlier this year in which he said that(I'm paraphrasing here)"Every driver in this building ran scratch during his qualification, so there's no reason why every driver can't be running scratch every day now. And that's what you're going to do."
It's not going that way, but not for lack of effort on his part.
The only time sporh comes into play is when they do a lock in ride.

[hurricanegunner]

Telematics has nothing to do with safety. It's all about spying on the drivers. Period.

[Bubblehead]

Originally Posted by UPS Lifer

Sorry bu your analysis is way to simple....

The system is imperfect and will never be perfect.
Yet our time studies are setup as if our loads are perfect and they rarely are. $8.50/hr, you get what you pay for.
Each route or area is different from the next. No two routes are exactly alike. This means that though one driver has a 9 hour planned day, his planned day is different from another driver's planned day. Whether it is stops, type of stops, number of packages, miles driven, density, city or country.... each route is different and cannot be compared by time allotted to complete the job.
The time study is supposed to account for these differences when they study these differing areas and conditions.
Then to make matters more complicated for dispatch purposes, you have the driver's make-up to factor into the equation. (Experience - temperament - skill set - etc , etc.)
????How does this work into the equation????
Therefore - one driver cannot look at another driver and compare the workload to his/her own situation. Some drivers may feel their 9 hour load is harder than your 10 hour load! They may have a million ways to justify their thinking.

All your dispatch team can do is look at each driver and assign work to that driver based on what that driver can handle within the guidelines and goals that have been established for the driver, group of drivers and overall center.

I don't care about whether my load is harder than the next guys and etc.
My point is rather than figuring in fudge factors to account for the perpetual overallowed driver on a particular route, who has been found to have no holes in their methods, FIX THE ALLOWANCES IN THE TIME STUDY AND BE DONE WITH IT.
Fix the problem rather than treat the symptoms.
I agree it's apparently way to simple.

[Mike23]

My beef (where's the beef?!) is with oncalls. You get time allowances for them but they don't count as 'stops'. I get, regularly, 10-15 oncalls a day (not as much as some, I know but in Calgary it's one of the higher up oncall runs). Not one of them counts as a stop so therefore I'm dispatched with a split to get my 9.5 then ontop of that I get these oncalls which turns into 10.5.

Fix the damn thing already or I'll pee on your desk!

[JustTired]

A little story, if I may.
A man has a dog. The dog has been by his side for several years. He counts on the man to give him food and a place to live. In return, he fetches the paper, warns him of anyone approaching the house and has been a loyal companion.
They often goes to the local lake where the man throws a stick into the water and the dog swims out to retrieve it. They have done this for years and both get enjoyment out of it. But one day the man decides to throw the stick a bit farther. The dog retrieves it without problem. So he throws it even farther. This continues with the man throwing it out a little further each time. Eventually the man notices that the dog is slowing down and it's becoming more difficult for him to get back to shore. But he continues to throw the stick and each time a little further. The dog (whether out of loyalty or just stupidity) continues to try and retrieve the stick. Finally, while attempting to retrieve the stick, he goes under...... too exhausted to continue, and drowns. The man stands on the shore watching the event unfold. He stands there in bewilderment, trying to figure out what just happened and why.
He returns home alone. No more loyal companion to keep him company.
　
　
But wait! That's not the end of the story.
He decides to get another dog. After all, there are many dogs looking for homes. He gets the dog, teaches it to fetch the stick, takes him to the lake....... where the above events play out all over again.
I keep hearing lately the old definition of "insanity". The one where you continue to do the same thing, over and over, expecting a different result.
If any of this sounds familiar....you might want to stop trying to fetch that stick. If it doesn't.......keep throwing the stick.......someone will fetch it for a while.