I want to live in I.E. world - Page 5 - Brown Cafe

JustTired · 09-08-2009, 03:27 AM

You know......
When I started, we had no diad. We had no telematics. We had no PAS/EDD. We had no power steering. We had no computers (at least at the center level).

How did this company ever make any money without these things? Better yet, how did we ever run scratch without all of these "aids??" ?

Technology can be a great thing. But if you allow it to take over for common sense, you'll find yourself 'outside looking in' wondering what went wrong.

All of the college degrees and all of the technology in the world can't make up for a lack of common sense.
JMO

tourists24 · 09-08-2009, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Tech:

I've posted over and over that I see this as the number one problem in the package operations. Work measurement is supposed to point out where problems exist. Its doing that.

I also believe that poor I.E.'s and operations people end up trying to fix it from the drivers side, and miss the root cause. I have posted this many times too.

So, I cannot disagree with you about process control and fixing root causes.

Your previous statement as well as others that say if the average across the country is not scratch, the problem is work measurement.

A much better discussion is how to fix the preload. That will improve the drivers' day.

P-Man

and again here lies the problem which I have stated many times. The whole IE system (DIAD, EDD, PAS,,,etc) may be the pride and envy of many industries, but the expectations put on the drivers are not fair. The system has to be set up with a certain "ideal" day scenario. Set up as if we were in an assembly line situation when there are many many things that change day to day... Some may be slight, others not (weather, load quality, etc,,, list can go on and on). Even you have said this has been a problem. Yet these are the numbers that mgt gets in trouble if a driver is too overallowed; therefore the driver gets pressured. How can a 5' tall driver and a 6' driver possibly be comared equally, esp on a route with a lot of walking. Not to mention a 55 year old driver compared to a 23 year old driver (again list can go on and on). All that matters at the center level is that the numbers are met and that the driver must maintain good numbers...

JimJimmyJames · 09-08-2009, 07:41 AM

I.E. got it wrong: increased selection time should have been plugged into the equation.

Why? Because the problem will never be fixed. As a supervisor said to me long ago, "the preload was terrible before you were hired, they are terrible now, and they will be terrible after you retire."

Even PAS/EDD could not fix the preload. In fact, as was stated in this thread, it has become worse.

I.E. do the right thing, add the time in.

Omega man · 09-08-2009, 10:35 AM

The result of this discussion proves one thing: UPS upper management is allowing some of their facilitators (center managers) to unethically and dishonestly harass drivers to make up time lost due to the failures of their operation (preload). Rouge managers exist everywhere in this company who actually believe drivers should run scratch. They harass and try to fire drivers because of it. How can this be done when many of us are doing nothing wrong and over-plan before we ever punch in and go to our trucks?
An ethically run company would identify and make allowances for that which is totally out of the control of drivers. Shame on you UPS management! You wonder why so many of us have little respect for you.

hellfire · 09-08-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega man

The result of this discussion proves one thing: UPS upper management is allowing some of their facilitators (center managers) to unethically and dishonestly harass drivers to make up time lost due to the failures of their operation (preload). Rouge managers exist everywhere in this company who actually believe drivers should run scratch. They harass and try to fire drivers because of it. How can this be done when many of us are doing nothing wrong and over-plan before we ever punch in and go to our trucks?
An ethically run company would identify and make allowances for that which is totally out of the control of drivers. Shame on you UPS management! You wonder why so many of us have little respect for you.

negative son,, center managers have little or no say in your daily dispatch,, god forbid a CM decides to add a extra route to lighten up those 10 and 11 hour planned days,,the allmighty IE corporates and DM's would have his head,, look higher for the root of the problem

hellfire · 09-08-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustTired

You know......
When I started, we had no diad. We had no telematics. We had no PAS/EDD. We had no power steering. We had no computers (at least at the center level).

How did this company ever make any money without these things? Better yet, how did we ever run scratch without all of these "aids??" ?

Technology can be a great thing. But if you allow it to take over for common sense, you'll find yourself 'outside looking in' wondering what went wrong.

All of the college degrees and all of the technology in the world can't make up for a lack of common sense.
JMO

BANG dead on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just Numbers · 09-08-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustTired

You know......
When I started, we had no diad. We had no telematics. We had no PAS/EDD. We had no power steering. We had no computers (at least at the center level).

How did this company ever make any money without these things? Better yet, how did we ever run scratch without all of these "aids??" ?

Technology can be a great thing. But if you allow it to take over for common sense, you'll find yourself 'outside looking in' wondering what went wrong.

All of the college degrees and all of the technology in the world can't make up for a lack of common sense.
JMO

And......except for air, what competition did you have for ground pkgs?

JustTired · 09-09-2009, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Numbers

And......except for air, what competition did you have for ground pkgs?

One of the only things technology has done that is a benefit is that it made it easier to track a pkg in somewhat real time. Using it to track a drivers every move may seem like a benefit to some, but it really doesn't get the pkgs delivered any faster. As a matter of fact, it may produce the opposite effect. Do you really think "competition" forced us to implement telematics? And if PAS/EDD was implemented to get us a leg up on the competition, don't you think its' implementation would have been more carefully thought out instead of rushed into service?

As I stated earlier....it is my belief that technology cannot take the place of common sense. While there is seemingly no lack of technology these days, there definitely seems to be a lack of common sense. I'm waiting to be proved wrong......but it will take common sense to do it.....so, I'm not holding my breath.

toonertoo · 09-09-2009, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Numbers

And......except for air, what competition did you have for ground pkgs?

The competition in ground is that we would be there almost dead on every day at the same time, with a cheerful face, and an efficient system. They could run their business based on our delivery time. Now they just get an efficient system, once its in the system, with harried drivers, and delivery when we get there.

Just Numbers · 09-09-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toonertoo

The competition in ground is that we would be there almost dead on every day at the same time, with a cheerful face, and an efficient system. They could run their business based on our delivery time. Now they just get an efficient system, once its in the system, with harried drivers, and delivery when we get there.

I agree but the fact still remains that that the packages in the fedex ground truck should be in your package car and, at one time most likely were! All the business we deliver run on the same basis...the bottom line and, the bottom line is cost just like UPS. I don't really care if I pump Exxon or Sunoco into my car. The determining factor is cost...not loyalty.

dannyboy · 09-09-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

I agree but the fact still remains that that the packages in the FedEx ground truck should be in your package car and, at one time most likely were! All the business we deliver run on the same basis...the bottom line and, the bottom line is cost just like UPS. I don't really care if I pump Exxon or Sunoco into my car. The determining factor is cost...not loyalty.

If the determining factor was only cost, then how can we (by management's own admission) one of the highest cost delivery companies, ever hold customers?

The reason, service. I know, that is an ideal that will not compute when entered into your data program, but to the customer, it is very important.

All these add ons are nice, and the customer wants and needs them. But the service is what they expect.

And the service is where we are lacking.

Drivers are for the most part, more productive than they were 20 years ago. We cover a smaller area, but deliver more stops and more packages.

But when IE sets the plan to cut corners to save money, and the bottom line is that you are cutting service to the customer, then is it not like the idiot that cut his nose off to spite his face?

Some times I feel like the IE department, in their effort to save a buck, is too short sighted to see the big picture.

d

Just Numbers · 09-09-2009, 10:01 AM

When I order an item a decision must be made. Do I spend $12.95 for shipping to just stay loyal to UPS or, take the $6.00 route. That's a no brainer. A lot of places state arrival in 6-10 business days and when you get it delivered it isn't crushed, is it! I'll wait to save the money.

Just Numbers · 09-09-2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberups

My supervisor is 53 years old and his back is shot.

He will be the first to admit that he is physically incapable of maintaining the same work pace he expects from me.

I am obligated by the contract to give a fair days work for a fair days pay which means that I need to do the job to the best of my ability, which at this time by far exceeds what my supervisor is capable of demonstrating.

Some day, that situation may well be reversed and I will be the 53 yr old with a bad back who will be physically incapable of maintaining a pace that would be easy for some 24 yr old supervisor to demonstrate.

When that happens, the provision in the contract requiring that the age and physical condition of the employee be taken into consideration will apply to my case.

Thats the beauty of the contract. It addresses these situations.

I realize you have a number of posts on this forum...I'm just wondering how many of them have an excuse attached to each answer?

dannyboy · 09-09-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

when you get it delivered it isn't crushed, is it! I'll wait to save the money.

Might be the reason you dont use UPS because they crush your box is that you figured the 2 CF box could fit into a 1.25 CF space to save time and money.

So again, you play the blame game with what you really ought to look inward upon for the answer......

But then again, if you worked for the "other company" would you make what you make punching in numbers at UPS......?????

Its funny how you demand the best from others, while you settle for mediocre from yourself.

d

dilligaf · 09-09-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyboy

If the determining factor was only cost, then how can we (by management's own admission) one of the highest cost delivery companies, ever hold customers?

The reason, service. I know, that is an ideal that will not compute when entered into your data program, but to the customer, it is very important.

All these add ons are nice, and the customer wants and needs them. But the service is what they expect.

And the service is where we are lacking.

Drivers are for the most part, more productive than they were 20 years ago. We cover a smaller area, but deliver more stops and more packages.

But when IE sets the plan to cut corners to save money, and the bottom line is that you are cutting service to the customer, then is it not like the idiot that cut his nose off to spite his face?

Some times I feel like the IE department, in their effort to save a buck, is too short sighted to see the big picture.

d

Danny, I think you are dead on with the service. I would gladly pay a little more to know that I was getting a good service. Right now our service leaves ALOT to be desired.

My rte yesterday.................. I was out delivering until about 9:45pm. 150 stops, 264 pcs. My truck was brick loaded. there was not one square inch of room to be had. The only thing I could do was start at one door or the other to deliver.

I cannot believe for one second that one of my customers was very happy about me driving up in front of their house after 8pm last night. Dogs barking, ringing doorbells for signatures. It was absolutely assinine.

dilligaf · 09-09-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Numbers

I realize you have a number of posts on this forum...I'm just wondering how many of them have an excuse attached to each answer?

I fail to see how Sobers post is an excuse. There is no yes or no to the situation, every situation is different. The contract tries to cover all bases. When it doesn't then the issues that are not covered are, hopefully, addressed in the new contract.

Sleeve_meet_Heart · 09-09-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilligaf

Danny, I think you are dead on with the service. I would gladly pay a little more to know that I was getting a good service. Right now our service leaves ALOT to be desired.

My rte yesterday.................. I was out delivering until about 9:45pm. 150 stops, 264 pcs. My truck was brick loaded. there was not one square inch of room to be had. The only thing I could do was start at one door or the other to deliver.

I cannot believe for one second that one of my customers was very happy about me driving up in front of their house after 8pm last night. Dogs barking, ringing doorbells for signatures. It was absolutely assinine.

I'm assuming you are a cover. That is a pretty ****ty day. Though the money isn't bad

I start cover next Monday, looking forward to sharing horror stories.

dilligaf · 09-09-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeve_meet_Heart

I'm assuming you are a cover. That is a pretty ****ty day. Though the money isn't bad

I start cover next Monday, looking forward to sharing horror stories.

Yes, kind of. Our cover drivers are part timers that work inside and fill in driving when needed. I am a full time utility driver. Just a difference in language. A technicality, really.

Usually that rte has 110/120 stops. Once in awhile it will go to 130. I actually had 165 yesterday but another driver came and got 15. BFD!

Pkgrunner · 09-09-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilligaf

Yes, kind of. Our cover drivers are part timers that work inside and fill in driving when needed. I am a full time utility driver. Just a difference in language. A technicality, really.

Usually that rte has 110/120 stops. Once in awhile it will go to 130. I actually had 165 yesterday but another driver came and got 15. BFD!

Considering the weird/nonsensical stuff I've been having added to my route lately; I'm surprised that I didn't get an add off that route yesterday----after all it's only a few inches away on a computer screen

IWorkAsDirected · 09-09-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Okay....

How about the Institute for Industrial Engineering
How about the Institute for Operations Research and Management Science
How about the countless companies that have benchmarked UPS' engineering group to see how to improve theirs.
How about Thomas Friedman in his Chapter on UPS in the book "The world is Flat"

In addition, Under Industrial Engineering is Plant Engineering and Automotive Engineering. P.E. built Worldport which has been deemed a marvel.

Am I brainwashed or are all these sources? Or maybe you are biased.

P-Man

Not one UPS driver cares P-man, and boy am I retired and gone. Like I said several times, you live in some Fantasy Land, or IE world I guess. I suggest you get on car for a week and see what a mess you guys make!!!

IWorkAsDirected · 09-09-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PobreCarlos

soberups;

Actually, the elemental allowances UPS uses were developed in exactly - albeit going one step further - the same way as your dental components friends used...the difference being that, instead of just timing one manager with a stopwatch, UPS timed literally scores (hundreds!) of actual employees (drivers, in the driver standards instance) performing an elemental action (i.e. - opening the bulkhead door, securing the seat belt, etc., etc.) and amalgamated them when called for; the on-road time-study observer simply counts the INSTANCES of those elements, and the time allowance (which, in most cases, have not changed in decades, simply because the elemental motions involved haven't changed either) for each instance is multiplied by the number of instances to develop the "allowed" time. Need to keep in mind that, to do a driver "time study", an observer doesn't even need a stopwatch (time board, whatever); it's only there to compare the actual time taken to what the "allowed" time is.

That said, the "allowed" time of the day of the study, from my experience, is remarkably accurate; most knowledgeable observers can go back (or at least they used to be able to!) and point out exactly where and how the driver lost and/or gained "time" compared to "allowed". Granted, when developed allowances (stop, travel, etc) are combined with multiple drivers in a unit, they can vary a bit. And, of course, the developed allowances are based on an average knowledgeable/skilled driver under average (not ideal, but not whacked-out, either) conditions.

Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that the way your dentistry friends perform their time study would be way too unsophisticated to deal with the conditions of UPS's work environment...unless the company (and its employees) would be willing to bear the expenses (and discomfort) of having a time study observer bird-dogging every employee every day.

Unfortunately, time studies are only done in Outer Space now, or la la land or ie land or whatever, when is the last time an ie person went onroad punch to punch and noted, traffic control devices, speed limit signs, steps to the door, etc.?????

dilligaf · 09-09-2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pkgrunner

Considering the weird/nonsensical stuff I've been having added to my route lately; I'm surprised that I didn't get an add off that route yesterday----after all it's only a few inches away on a computer screen

I would have gladly given you an add-on. I certainly had enough to share.

Just Numbers · 09-09-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyboy

Might be the reason you dont use UPS because they crush your box is that you figured the 2 CF box could fit into a 1.25 CF space to save time and money.

So again, you play the blame game with what you really ought to look inward upon for the answer......

But then again, if you worked for the "other company" would you make what you make punching in numbers at UPS......?????

Its funny how you demand the best from others, while you settle for mediocre from yourself.

d

D,
You run a business...what's the bottom line that keeps you in business...it is profit generated by cost control, is it not?

tourists24 · 09-10-2009, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Numbers

D,
You run a business...what's the bottom line that keeps you in business...it is profit generated by cost control, is it not?

there is such a thing as cutting costs so much that you hurt your product....

JustTired · 09-10-2009, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Numbers

D,
You run a business...what's the bottom line that keeps you in business...it is profit generated by cost control, is it not?

That would be one element. But you can't sacrifice service to gain it. Especially when you are a service company. You can't control cost in one area without looking to see what it is doing in other areas.

If you're trying to show cost control to gain favor with the "Wall Street" crowd.....You just winding up chasing your tail. Nothing you do will ever be good enough. You end up causing long-term damage trying to obtain what ultimately turns out to be short-term gain (if you're lucky).

There's nothing wrong with finding ways to cut costs. When doing so, you just have to "get the big picture". If a plan is not working, you have to "leave yourself an out".

Someone, somewhere has to evaluate the status of some of these so-called enhancements to service. If they are not working as planned, they have to have the "gonads" to make someone at the top aware of it. Nothing will get fixed until that happens. I can see potential in these "enhancements"......but until the implementation is corrected, they are just an anchor that keeps the once "tightest ship" from advancing.