Glad to pay union dues

[cachsux]

The company went from 800 to 445 in PROFIT. It does not say money was not made. If the company spends money on things differently from the prior year,such as the new building in Canada,then the level of profit will change as compared to a year they did not spend as much.

[bluehdmc]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

Look, there have been drastic changes in the operations this year. All I am saying is this company is making 49% less than it did last year and there SHOULD be drastic changes. If you took home 49% less than last year you would make drastic changes in your lifestyle, as you should. So why would anyone say to UPS, you still made plenty of money this quarte, so what if it was half what you made last year it is fine. If I told one of the laid of drivers in my preload "hey, you should be happy with the paycheck you are taking home now, so what if it is 49% less than you where making before, you are still making money", he would think I was a jackass, and rightly so. Those people who get whine about the operational changes UPS is making and say "hey, UPS is making money, they should be happy about it, who cares if it is 49% less than last year" are quite frankly displaying a tad bit of jackassery.

Reducing someone's pay by 49% vs 49% reduction in profit are 2 different things. Now if my mortgage, utilities, and other household expenses are paid for and my DISCRETIONARY income, (money for say entertainment, toys, etc.) is reduced by 49% that would be a better comparison IMHO.

Also if you truly want to "lead by example" regardless of whether your pay is below that of your industry peers, don't give yourself a $5million pay raise!
As I said earlier, Scott Davis knew when he accepted the position that what the pay was.

[bluehdmc]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Blue:

Actually at some level it kinda is like having your pay reduced...

UPS does not make a profit passively. It takes capital (money) and that money comes from investors. People have money invested in this company with a hope of a return. Profit drives that return.

Some of those people have invested money so they can retire. Some for their children's college. Maybe others for a vacation. In any case, those people saw the same investment return a drastic drop in profit year to year.

Do they have a right to complain. Of course not. They knew that investing in a company is risky. If they wanted no risk, they could have put their money in a CD or other safe investment.

Nonetheless, its still painful to see hopes and dreams stalled because of a recession that has reduced profit and investment value considerably.

Don't take that as a complaint.

P-Man

I agree at some level it is like having your pay reduced, as I said in another post it is like reducing my discretionary income. This is not the same as reducing my pay by 49%

I understand UPS does not make profit passively and investors expect a return on investment. As someone told me once, stocks go up and stocks go down. Also are you looking for the return from the rise in stock price or dividends, (ex: growth vs income mutual funds).

There is still a "risk" involved in CD or other "safe" investments, (even FDIC insured ones). While the isn't the risk of principle, there's inflationary risk, stocks tend to keep better pace with inflation, but money invested in a CD at 2% is a "loss" if inflation is 5%.

[pretzel_man]

Originally Posted by bluehdmc

I agree at some level it is like having your pay reduced, as I said in another post it is like reducing my discretionary income. This is not the same as reducing my pay by 49%

I understand UPS does not make profit passively and investors expect a return on investment. As someone told me once, stocks go up and stocks go down. Also are you looking for the return from the rise in stock price or dividends, (ex: growth vs income mutual funds).

There is still a "risk" involved in CD or other "safe" investments, (even FDIC insured ones). While the isn't the risk of principle, there's inflationary risk, stocks tend to keep better pace with inflation, but money invested in a CD at 2% is a "loss" if inflation is 5%.

Blue:

What if it was your IRA? What if you expected that investment to carry you through retirement? That reduction in profit means that there is much less there than one thought...

Think of it this way. At some level, your own retirement is invested in the stock market. Hopefully, the people investing it has a very good portfolio.

If the stocks that your own pension is invested in go down significantly (due to loss of profits), you pension would be affected.

Loss of profit isn't really just discretionary income.

P-Man

[DS]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

and yet Scott Davis still makes well below the average for people at his rank in comparable companies, so he can claim he is doing his part to help the company's health and therefor to help all who make their living from the company. Can you say the same?

What is acceptable ? If he made a mere $1million a year and made ups a better place to work then I would agree.(that is more than enough to live like a king)Comparing how many millions he makes compared to other companies means squat to the ones that truly care.All the cutbacks that affect us so the ones at the top can be multi millionaires in this so called recession are unnecessarily founded greed that only hurts our customers.

jmo

[noway]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

couple points.

UPS did not make 800 million profit last quarter, it was 445, which is a reduction of 49% over the prior year. If your take home pay went down by 49%, you would likely do some drastic things as well, or at least you should.

Your sup is either mis-informed or not being truthful about the bonus, there has been no announcement about that. Yet.

MIP will likely be here this year, as it is based on profit and we are still making that. It will be smaller than in years past, undoubtedly.

I do agree with sober on one point, the sup certainly should not have spent the day bitching to you about all that. That is not his job and you have enough to deal with without having to listen to all that.

Thought I was losing it, had to double check. Went to UPSers and pulled up last qtr's report. I was a little off. Copied it straight from the page to here.

"UPS today reported operating profit of $895 million on a 16.7% revenue decline for the second quarter ended June 30." I am sure they can make this sound worse than it is. Most companies are losing money, UPS is not.

Clearly brownIEman was using IE math in his responce.

Maybe I made the sup sound worse than I should of, I was part of the conversation too. My point was we need the protection the Union offers us. If this is how the comapny treats their own, what would they do to us if they could.

[MobileBA]

Would it surprise anyone that UPS manipulated last quarter earnings for all the obvious cynical reasons!

[bluehdmc]

Originally Posted by MobileBA

Would it surprise anyone that UPS manipulated last quarter earnings for all the obvious cynical reasons!

Someone at UPS manipulate numbers? Say it ain't so!

[1989]

Originally Posted by soberups

Your supervisor needs to quit complaining about his pay cut. Scott Davis just gave himself a multimillion dollar raise. That money has to come from somewhere. Sometimes, we all just have to be willing to suck it up and take one for the team.

The board of directors make the determination of what the CEO makes.
John Thompson ; Duane Ackerman ; Stuart Eizenstat are who you should send your complaints. They make up the compensation commitee.

[bluehdmc]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

Blue:

What if it was your IRA? What if you expected that investment to carry you through retirement? That reduction in profit means that there is much less there than one thought...

Think of it this way. At some level, your own retirement is invested in the stock market. Hopefully, the people investing it has a very good portfolio.

If the stocks that your own pension is invested in go down significantly (due to loss of profits), you pension would be affected.

Loss of profit isn't really just discretionary income.

P-Man

There is a recession going on, most peoples pensions have gone down. I live in NJ and the pension for state workers has lost value.

This is not the first recession and probably won't be the last. As I said before stocks go up and stocks go down, that's the nature of the stock market, some of which really has no bearing on the company represented by the stock, just market sentiments.

It's not a "loss" in your portfolio unless you sell the stock, I bought a blue chip stock at @ $67 a share, (last fall), before the recession hit it was trading at @ $120, that's about where it is now. The person who sold the stock last fall lost money, the person who bought it gained, (only if they were to sell now), wish I had bought more. It has also paid a dividend since I've purchased it.

When the market goes down it's a "buying" opportunity. If you have investments in the stock market and can weather the storm you're ok. If you're the poor guy who retired last fall and started drawing money out your hurting.

It's the same with the real estate market and other investments. Some work in reverse of the stock market like precious metals. Gold was $800 an ounce a couple of years ago now it's $1000.

[1989]

Originally Posted by bluehdmc

There is a recession going on, most peoples pensions have gone down. I live in NJ and the pension for state workers has lost value.

This is not the first recession and probably won't be the last. As I said before stocks go up and stocks go down, that's the nature of the stock market, some of which really has no bearing on the company represented by the stock, just market sentiments.

It's not a "loss" in your portfolio unless you sell the stock, I bought a blue chip stock at @ $67 a share, (last fall), before the recession hit it was trading at @ $120, that's about where it is now. The person who sold the stock last fall lost money, the person who bought it gained, (only if they were to sell now), wish I had bought more. It has also paid a dividend since I've purchased it.

When the market goes down it's a "buying" opportunity. If you have investments in the stock market and can weather the storm you're ok. If you're the poor guy who retired last fall and started drawing money out your hurting.

It's the same with the real estate market and other investments. Some work in reverse of the stock market like precious metals. Gold was $800 an ounce a couple of years ago now it's $1000.

Sounds like that stock is hitting a resistance level. Maybe time to sell. You said it yourself, you only make money when you sell.

[pemanager]

Originally Posted by noway

Thought I was losing it, had to double check. Went to UPSers and pulled up last qtr's report. I was a little off. Copied it straight from the page to here.

"UPS today reported operating profit of $895 million on a 16.7% revenue decline for the second quarter ended June 30." I am sure they can make this sound worse than it is. Most companies are losing money, UPS is not.

Clearly brownIEman was using IE math in his responce.

Maybe I made the sup sound worse than I should of, I was part of the conversation too. My point was we need the protection the Union offers us. If this is how the comapny treats their own, what would they do to us if they could.

BrownIEman was most likely using the after tax net profit number. Whichever number you look at it has gone down substantially.

[Can You Come Back?]

If 445 million is correct, than that's 1.2 million per day, every day of the year.

Now, that is definitely down from prior years...... and the economy is down and suffering, but I am happy and proud to be employed by a company still making bank during a tumultuous time and responding to a potential fiscal calamity that could be manifesting.

Did I use enough big words?

[bluehdmc]

Originally Posted by Can You Come Back?

If 445 million is correct, than that's 1.2 million per day, every day of the year.

Now, that is definitely down from prior years...... and the economy is down and suffering, but I am happy and proud to be employed by a company still making bank during a tumultuous time and responding to a potential fiscal calamity that could be manifesting.

Did I use enough big words?

Yes your words were big enough, the math was off. If the 445 million is the true after tax figure that almost 5 million dollars a day. the 446 million is the quarterly profit.

[Can You Come Back?]

Originally Posted by bluehdmc

Yes your words were big enough, the math was off. If the 445 million is the true after tax figure that almost 5 million dollars a day. the 446 million is the quarterly profit.

My bad!

You are very correct.

must multiply my numbers by 4

[BrownArmy]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

..."hey, UPS is making money, they should be happy about it, who cares if it is 49% less than last year" are quite frankly displaying a tad bit of jackassery.

Jackassery is my new favorite word. It will be difficult to work into conversation, but it will be worth the wait...

(not bustin' on you brownIEman, that's really my new favorite word...my tummy hurts from laughing.)

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by noway

Thought I was losing it, had to double check. Went to UPSers and pulled up last qtr's report. I was a little off. Copied it straight from the page to here.

"UPS today reported operating profit of $895 million on a 16.7% revenue decline for the second quarter ended June 30." I am sure they can make this sound worse than it is. Most companies are losing money, UPS is not.

Clearly brownIEman was using IE math in his responce.

Maybe I made the sup sound worse than I should of, I was part of the conversation too. My point was we need the protection the Union offers us. If this is how the comapny treats their own, what would they do to us if they could.

I was using the net profit, which is a different beast that the operating profit. The operating profit still has costs not included, such as corporate income tax. If saying true profit is what we make AFTER we pay uncle Sam is a cynical manipulation, then I suppose that is what I did. Is someone going to try and claim that payment is optional?

And, to the thread title, you should be happy to pay union dues, they are the primary reason you make more than anyone in your industry. My point is that the gap is growing, and that UPS is already not able to compete on price with competition very well. If the gap continues to grow at the rate it is, we are in serious trouble. Again, I will ask, how many good union jobs does anyone think UPS will provide when our market share gets to 0%?

[Highwayman]

Jackassery!

[NHDRVR]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

Jackassery!

second

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by BrownArmy

Jackassery is my new favorite word. It will be difficult to work into conversation, but it will be worth the wait...

(not bustin' on you brownIEman, that's really my new favorite word...my tummy hurts from laughing.)

Glad you like it. Jackassery(tm) does sorta have a nice ring to it now that I think about it. Now, just so we are clear, I have trade marked Jackassery(tm) and I will have final say on how and when it may be used ( and yes, I am aware of the irony that by doing so, I am engaging in a fair level of, well Jackassery(tm))

Now, here are the rules. For my extended family of UPSERS, all UPSERS, you have absolute unlimited use of the term Jackassery(tm) any time, in any media, print, written, spoken recorded, whatever. But for all others, there will be a 1/4 of one cent charge for each and every usage of Jackassery(tm). To be collected once 400 such usages have acrued. For each 400 usage your families and friends get to, I will expect you to collect one dollar from them and donate said dollar to any of the following:
The UPS Foundation,
The Annie E Casey Foundation,
United Way
Your local Good 'ol Boys (or Girls) Charity Beer Fund,
Or any noble effort indended to better the human condition of your choosing.

[moreluck]

I'm tired of dealing with Obama's jackassery (tm) !!

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by bluehdmc

Reducing someone's pay by 49% vs 49% reduction in profit are 2 different things. Now if my mortgage, utilities, and other household expenses are paid for and my DISCRETIONARY income, (money for say entertainment, toys, etc.) is reduced by 49% that would be a better comparison IMHO.

Also if you truly want to "lead by example" regardless of whether your pay is below that of your industry peers, don't give yourself a $5million pay raise!
As I said earlier, Scott Davis knew when he accepted the position that what the pay was.

I realized one problem with your analogy. At first I tended to agree with you that yes, profit is like discretionary income after your bills are paid. I would have still argued that even if your discretionary income were to be reduced by 49%, you would make some pretty drastic changes in your lifestyle. Then I got to thinking how that "discretionary income" is spent. For you or I, it might go to a vacation, or a bigscreen TV, or maybe even a boat or recreational items. For UPS, that "discretionary" income goes to things like new facilities, new package cars, new planes, training facilities, expansions into new markets or areas of business. So sure, it is more like discretionary income after bills, but before things like contributions to your retirement fund, investment in land for your retirement years, or say your kids college funds. So, I again would ask, if the money you took home after bills to basically invest in your future went down by 49%, would you look to make drastic changes, or not?

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by bluehdmc

Reducing someone's pay by 49% vs 49% reduction in profit are 2 different things. Now if my mortgage, utilities, and other household expenses are paid for and my DISCRETIONARY income, (money for say entertainment, toys, etc.) is reduced by 49% that would be a better comparison IMHO.

Also if you truly want to "lead by example" regardless of whether your pay is below that of your industry peers, don't give yourself a $5million pay raise!
As I said earlier, Scott Davis knew when he accepted the position that what the pay was.

ok. Just to be clear. I like to play devils advocate, and in some of these posts about Scott's pay hike that is what I have been doing. To be honest, I really am not hung up on his pay. I am and have been impressed by the tradition of humility that has always accompanied the office of CEO at UPS as compared to the self important twits at other companies. That said, I will say, if you want to talk about "leading by example" truly I have a better place to talk about this than you as a service provider do. Remember, you got a raise this year, despite the economy, I did not. So while I really don't have a huge issue with the correction of his comparitave compensation level, I will admit that the timing of it, coming as it did on the heals of the rest of management getting zippo for raises, does indeed smell a bit of... wait for it... jackassery(tm).

[jimstud]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

ok. Just to be clear. I like to play devils advocate, and in some of these posts about Scott's pay hike that is what I have been doing. To be honest, I really am not hung up on his pay. I am and have been impressed by the tradition of humility that has always accompanied the office of CEO at UPS as compared to the self important twits at other companies. That said, I will say, if you want to talk about "leading by example" truly I have a better place to talk about this than you as a service provider do. Remember, you got a raise this year, despite the economy, I did not. So while I really don't have a huge issue with the correction of his comparitave compensation level, I will admit that the timing of it, coming as it did on the heals of the rest of management getting zippo for raises, does indeed smell a bit of... wait for it... jackassery(tm).

bulls*** that is what that is , are you forgetting mr davis' stock bonus. you are right as far as ceo's go his pay is substandard but that is just his base pay jim kelley's last year he was given 22 million in stock that more than makes up for his paltry 4 million he made.you keep forgeting corporate jets lavish retreats and all the other horsesh** that goes along with being a corporate big shot.so stop saying the writing is on the wall and all us lowly teamsters, that keep the cardboard moving are going to have accept cut backs.

[pretzel_man]

Originally Posted by jimstud

bulls*** that is what that is , are you forgetting mr davis' stock bonus. you are right as far as ceo's go his pay is substandard but that is just his base pay jim kelley's last year he was given 22 million in stock that more than makes up for his paltry 4 million he made.you keep forgeting corporate jets lavish retreats and all the other horsesh** that goes along with being a corporate big shot.so stop saying the writing is on the wall and all us lowly teamsters, that keep the cardboard moving are going to have accept cut backs.

Do you care to back up your statements with some proof??

I certainly do not remember Jim Kelly getting $22M. I searched around and found him getting about $2M.

There are no corporate jets.

Where are the lavish retreats?

Unless your intent was just rhetoric, please post some proof.

P-Man