May 10th Announcement .Pension - Page 2 - Brown Cafe

mg5 · 05-02-2007, 07:01 PM

Maybe your not getting the big picture here.....Maybe company is looking to trim some mgmt. Maybe they are not only looking at the (dead wood, old timers etc. etc). Maybe they are looking to cut all pensions to 401k's, benefits and long time employees. No mgmt MIP below Div. Mgr. level. If that could be it, THINK, no one after 10 to 15 years. That way no one has higher pay scale, no 4, 5, 6 week vacations. Nobody to retire with benefits. Put your 10 or 12 years in and hit the road and take your 401k with you. Maybe they are looking for short term employees. Less pay,less injuries (younger work force), less vacation time. Maybe they do not want career UPS'ERS. Looks like everyone is thinking its 20 plus years of service and 50 plus years old. It's a bigger plan and we have only seen a very small part....my opinion only.

RockyRogue · 05-03-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeniorGeek

It used to be that the people who displayed talent and dedication would be encouraged to enter management. Has the situation transmogrified to where it is just a matter of openings being available?

Sadly, the answer to your question is yes. My hub's sorts are screaming for p/t supervisors. I've seen a couple recent promotees I wouldn't entrust management of a rat farm to! Quality of new management is non-existent. One guy I talked to grumbled, "They must have gone under the trash can to get that guy," in reference to a recent promotee. And these are the future of this company! Really sad. -Rocky

boiled frog · 05-03-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyRogue

Sadly, the answer to your question is yes. My hub's sorts are screaming for p/t supervisors. I've seen a couple recent promotees I wouldn't entrust management of a rat farm to! Quality of new management is non-existent. One guy I talked to grumbled, "They must have gone under the trash can to get that guy," in reference to a recent promotee. And these are the future of this company! Really sad. -Rocky

If you think about it, a necessary qualification for going into management these days is stupidity. Why would anyone accept below market pay with a large part of it based on achieving goals you don't know and have no control over. Then they take another large chunk and put it in UPS stock spread over 5 years. The stock is at the same price it was 8 years ago. All the other perks that used to be incentives are on the chopping block or already gone. This is without even getting into the crummy work environment and how poorly people are treated. If I were looking at a UPS management job today I would run far and run fast. There are much more rewarding things you could do with your life.

trickpony1 · 05-03-2007, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boiled frog

If you think about it, a necessary qualification for going into management these days is stupidity. Why would anyone accept below market pay with a large part of it based on achieving goals you don't know and have no control over. Then they take another large chunk and put it in UPS stock spread over 5 years. The stock is at the same price it was 8 years ago. All the other perks that used to be incentives are on the chopping block or already gone. This is without even getting into the crummy work environment and how poorly people are treated. If I were looking at a UPS management job today I would run far and run fast. There are much more rewarding things you could do with your life.

Could it be the management candidates of today are told little, if any, of what you describe?
Could it be going into management today is done for survival because the candidates know if they stay in package cars their body will self-destruct?
Could it be the management candidates are overwhelmed and succumb to the glitter, gloss, glory and prestige of being able to tell their friends they are in managment to, eventually, realize the truth you have conveyed?
Could it be.......?

Channahon · 05-03-2007, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhguy

Channahon:

You seemed to have some details from the first buyout. Didn't you say that they recieved a 50% pension and a lump sum that was paid out in 4 payments over two years. I would be interested if you could elaborate on what you know about the buyout from earlier this year.

The payout is over a 2 year period, every 6 months. The payout comes first and then at retirement age of 55 he will get 50% of what his pension would have been. All stock options are to be exercised as well. Along with RSU's and RPU's.

dumbsup · 05-03-2007, 11:47 AM

add it up is right. I bm tries and and was sued back about 7-8 years ago. For anyone with 20+ years it sucks...

bones · 05-03-2007, 01:33 PM

It is not 635K vs. 1.3M, if you had the 635K you have it invested until the time you retire, in my case with 21 years in and only 39 years old at 6% interest over the next 16 years that would equal around $1.7M. You could put this in an annuity or bond and draw somewhere around $8400 a month the rest of your life and never touch the principal. Not to mention if I live another day or 40 years the money would go to my wife and kids, what happens to my pension if I die tomorrow? Does my family get anything? I think the buyout (if there even is one) is a very good thing for most, I would much rather have the money than take the chance of it being there at 55, there is alot that could happen between now and then, given UPS track record of the last few years and how in my opinion managers and supervisors continue to get less and less (MIP, benifits, etc...) I don't trust UPS with the pension benifit, I see us working longer and longer for less. In my opinion partnership no longer includes managers and supervisors. Give me mine now, then if I decide next year I don't want to do this any longer I can go do something I enjoy.

05-03-2007, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumbsup

add it up is right. I bm tries and and was sued back about 7-8 years ago. For anyone with 20+ years it sucks...

IBM tried it, did it, and is better for it. Sued or not, their pension is gone and never coming back. In the past year IBM stock has increased 20% while UPS stock... Management pension's clock is running out. Whether the announcement is next week, next month, or next year; it is gone.

upsandDOWNS · 05-03-2007, 05:07 PM

Eskew scheduled to be in metro pa next week when board meets in Delaware. He will announce pension plan reform there.

05-03-2007, 06:50 PM

I agree that the 635K will be substancially more in the futurer if invested. You'll still be lucky to match the current pension. I can assure you that any changes made will be to benefit the company and upper management at the expense of low/mid level mangement and our non-union people. With 20 years we are somewhat protected. By law your current pension benefits can't be reduced without your approval if the plan is funded. The pay-off is the bait needed for your approval. The cost saving will begin when the current plan is frozen or eliminated. The additional 3% at 6500 per month salery would cost ( if, and only if, you contribute) UPS an additional $2,340 per year or a total of 4,680 per year including the current 3% match. That's far less than what it costs to fund the current plan and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you put less in you'll get less out. 3jb

bones · 05-04-2007, 09:55 AM

I agree, many people, especailly those with not many years in, will get far less over the long run than others, it just happens to work well for others like me, over 20 years in but only around 40. I haven't run the numbers but thinking about it it would not be good for those over 50 becaue they couldn't take the lump sum like I can and have it invested for a long period of time. This will definitey be a cost savings for the company in the long run as the additional 3% match definetely has to be cheaper than funding a pension program. In the end management will get less and less, I just think this is inevitable weather there is a buyout of the pension or not. UPS does not have to negotiate with a union to cut management compensation. The new UPS will always take the path of least resistance, right and wrong is no longer important to the decission makers (grade 20's and above).

dumbsup · 05-04-2007, 01:03 PM

upsandsowns do you think this time is for real? A pension change will be announced??

bones · 05-04-2007, 01:11 PM

I don't think anyone under a region level manager or mayby outside of the management comittee really knows, I do think it has been talked about and will happen someday as it will reduce the company's liabilities and expenses.

dumbsup · 05-04-2007, 01:59 PM

From another board...

Will announce; Pension (management) will be frozen at current level. Increase 401K match to 6% WIll still need to work to age 55(possible raised to age 57) Definitely no buy out, to many good sups and mgrs leaving already. MIP will be phased out for non-operation supervisors in 4 years.

dumbsup · 05-04-2007, 02:00 PM

my only question is the MIP phase out for Non Ops supervisor's. Will it be over 4 years or in 4 years and what will they do to replace the income...

UPS Lifer · 05-04-2007, 02:33 PM

I am reading this thread and I feel real bad for most of you. I went through these rumors all the way to last year. Now it does not affect me. It will be real interesting to see what comes out of the meeting next week. Let's all hope it affects the stock in a POSITIVE way and boosts it up about $10 a share so everyone can retire earlier!!!

upsandDOWNS · 05-04-2007, 04:17 PM

Doubt it, but Number 1 pay for benefits...2 Stock options reduced or eliminated....Step 3 redesign pension...we are no longer private partners. we are now regular big business and that is the path a business takes. Soooooooooo something is coming and probably not good

jehardrock · 05-05-2007, 05:46 AM

Elimination of the management pension plan saves UPS big $$. UPS is currently obligated to pay into the pension plan for all employees. However, not all get into the 401K or contribute for the maximum match. Too many live for today. That's the savings for UPS. If this is eliminated the only golden handcuff left is the accumulated Restricted Stock Units (RSUs). There is also talk of a "Leadership Crisis" within UPS and meetings are taking place to discuss promotable candidates. Even though they discuss them, opportunities still do not exist for those that are "No-Relo". We're headed for some sad times where the true leaders will be working to make their less competent Managers successful. But I've always said that a Manager is only as good as the people that work for them.

boiled frog · 05-05-2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jehardrock

Elimination of the management pension plan saves UPS big $$. UPS is currently obligated to pay into the pension plan for all employees. However, not all get into the 401K or contribute for the maximum match. Too many live for today. That's the savings for UPS. If this is eliminated the only golden handcuff left is the accumulated Restricted Stock Units (RSUs). There is also talk of a "Leadership Crisis" within UPS and meetings are taking place to discuss promotable candidates. Even though they discuss them, opportunities still do not exist for those that are "No-Relo". We're headed for some sad times where the true leaders will be working to make their less competent Managers successful. But I've always said that a Manager is only as good as the people that work for them.

We are already there. The "Leadership Crisis" is that at the top there is none. We are now a company where the winners usually have to work for the butt-smooching losers. I have relocated 5 times since I've been with UPS but I would not do it again. The company's commitment to people isn't strong enough to justify people making that kind of sacrifice for the company any more. And since management compensation has deteriorated over the past 10 years many people have to rely on their spouse's income to survive. This makes relocating impossible.

dumbsup · 05-05-2007, 10:30 AM

UPS Pension obligation per qtr is almost $1 billion, is that true? A DM in our district said that Friday. Soemthing is up, even the DM's are talking...

05-05-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumbsup

UPS Pension obligation per qtr is almost $1 billion, is that true? A DM in our district said that Friday. Soemthing is up, even the DM's are talking...

......Perhaps the UPS Management Pension Plan is going to absorbed into and run by the Mechanics Union.....

tieguy · 05-05-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boiled frog

We are already there. The "Leadership Crisis" is that at the top there is none. We are now a company where the winners usually have to work for the butt-smooching losers. I have relocated 5 times since I've been with UPS but I would not do it again. The company's commitment to people isn't strong enough to justify people making that kind of sacrifice for the company any more. And since management compensation has deteriorated over the past 10 years many people have to rely on their spouse's income to survive. This makes relocating impossible.

I have never seen anyone that was asked to relocate that would rely on their spouses salary to survive. All relocatees I have seen are divison manager in rank and higher. All recieve some pretty generous terms from what I have seen?

jehardrock · 05-05-2007, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by boiled frog

We are already there. The "Leadership Crisis" is that at the top there is none. We are now a company where the winners usually have to work for the butt-smooching losers. I have relocated 5 times since I've been with UPS but I would not do it again. The company's commitment to people isn't strong enough to justify people making that kind of sacrifice for the company any more. And since management compensation has deteriorated over the past 10 years many people have to rely on their spouse's income to survive. This makes relocating impossible.

I hope you knew what the carrot was and received it before relocating each time

dumbsup · 05-05-2007, 04:09 PM

When a DM is relocated he is paid pretty well for the hassle. Moving costs and stipends on top of regular pay,MIP, half month and options.

boiled frog · 05-05-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumbsup

When a DM is relocated he is paid pretty well for the hassle. Moving costs and stipends on top of regular pay,MIP, half month and options.

Having your moving costs paid isn't exactly "paid pretty well". Especially if you're moving somewhere the cost of living is signifcantly higher. You usually don't get paid enough to cover the difference.