Layoffs in I.S.

[Dfigtree]

Originally Posted by ramsey500

badmouthing the delicate flower?

who would dare to do that?

she will be king one day !

and I suppose you never worked for her either, have you?

I worked with people. If people were willing to work with me, I was willing to work with them. I never worked for anyone but I can say that when compared to her peers, the ones that I know of, she is the best of the bunch.

Over and out.

[rups]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

RUPS:

I couldn't agree more about outdated procedures slowing down the processes.

I have other observations and questions on the process...

The IS management structure seems EXTREMELY top heavy to me. How many levels are there above the actual developer who does the work and what value do they add?

You have other processes up front that the district developer doesn't have. You spend endless hours talking about what you are going to develop and producing documents.

I was told that the effort up front saves time later. I've never seen that. What % of a development budget is for actual development? When you subtract all the documents, testing, approvals, etc, etc, I'm betting a realtively small % is actually spent writing code???

In the district, code writing is a very high percent of the overall project.

I will bet you that if we got rid of the excess layers, and non value added work we could reduce IS cost for a system by 50%.

IS has some great people working in a poor process and the districts are paying the price...

P-Man

P-Man,

You are wise. It's good that there is someone on the forum interested in talking about process and not politics. Maybe a few people will read this discussion and consider updating an inefficient process they participate in regularly.

Programmers should be focused on programming. I buy into the theory of "Effort up front can save time later" but it has to be the right effort by the right resource. Businiess Anaysts, QA Analysts, DBA, Server Admins, TSG, Network Admin, the cafeteria lady... everyone should have a role for specific tasks at a specific time.

When programmers spend too much time writing documents, sitting in review meetings and committees, sending out emails and updating timecards, the ability to write code goes down.

Very frustrating for the programmer who knows that he or she can accomplish more and very frustrating for the manager who has to share a project workplan with their boss at the next status meeting that shows slippage.

To be fair to the upper management, there are 4 things that are really causing confusion in managing IT

1. Technology released today can be intimidating to non-techie types and unclear how to apply in a business environment. I find some of this web 2.0 / open source technology very difficult and I've been in IT for 25 years.
2. Sarbanex-Oxley auditors, compliance auditors and the internal auditors who are as poking around in IS are always causing confusion as well. Each auditor can have their own requirements and it's often confusing understanding requirements vs. suggestions vs. violations.
3. Competing technology stacks - UPS owns probably every piece of major software on the market. Which one should be used for the XYZ project? SQL Server, DB2, Oracle, Access, MySQL, etc.... Beats me but we own all of them and they all seem to work!
4. Attempting to manage IT operations like package operations. It's a conflict between management style and employee style and a bad fit.

So to answer your question,
Question: How many levels are there above (and to the side of) the actual developer who does the work and what value do they add?

Answer: Entirely too many and even though they believe they add value, they are often a distraction.

I say fix the process instead of trying to fix the people.

Go Brown!

rups

[07960]

Rumor is there is a 30% cut coming before year end in IS? There is a lot of space in the parking lot, consultants were given release dates, as were the PTer's. Staff appears stressed.

[pretzel_man]

Originally Posted by 07960

Rumor is there is a 30% cut coming before year end in IS? There is a lot of space in the parking lot, consultants were given release dates, as were the PTer's. Staff appears stressed.

I'm glad to see the cuts, as long as the message is to do more with less. That's the same message we have in the field.

My friends in IT say there are still no plans for layoffs of UPS employees.

I assume you are not an MIP participant. Non-union salary or hourly....

You mention working 12 hour days. On my assignments to IS (and I worked in NJ, Md, and Ky), I NEVER saw IS MIP people putting in hours like that. From my friends in IS, that is still true.

P-Man

[ISWarrior]

Then you never worked at / with the enterprise services like billing. But I do need to agree that there is dead wood (both consultants and MIP participants) that can go and I would not shed a tear. As for me, yes I am a MIP participant. Do I work more than 40 hrs a week? During certain phases of a project, yes when there are problems, yes. Do I do it more than 50% of the time NO. I have had a much as 70+ hour weeks (and that was only for two or three weeks in cricis mode), but I fail to see the shame in getting my job done in 40 hrs.

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

I'm glad to see the cuts, as long as the message is to do more with less. That's the same message we have in the field.

My friends in IT say there are still no plans for layoffs of UPS employees.

I assume you are not an MIP participant. Non-union salary or hourly....

You mention working 12 hour days. On my assignments to IS (and I worked in NJ, Md, and Ky), I NEVER saw IS MIP people putting in hours like that. From my friends in IS, that is still true.

P-Man

[pretzel_man]

Originally Posted by ISWarrior

Then you never worked at / with the enterprise services like billing. But I do need to agree that there is dead wood (both consultants and MIP participants) that can go and I would not shed a tear. As for me, yes I am a MIP participant. Do I work more than 40 hrs a week? During certain phases of a project, yes when there are problems, yes. Do I do it more than 50% of the time NO. I have had a much as 70+ hour weeks (and that was only for two or three weeks in cricis mode), but I fail to see the shame in getting my job done in 40 hrs.

First, no shame in getting work done in 40 hours. That's a good thing. In the original post I was responding to, the poster said he / she was working 12 hours every day. I've never seen that.

Second, on my assignments I didn't work in billing / finance, but I did work next to them. (At least I think that was the right group). At the time Stu S. was the division manager and he had an office in Ramsey. Worked on multiple projects with him and his user and IS group.

My biggest issue with IS is their process and top heavy structure. Many do not go the extra mile to service the business. I assume that you are NOT one of those I'm complaining about.

When I can see someone in the district create something for a tiny fraction of the cost of IS, something is wrong. What happens is the business is losing the benefit we need because IS cost is too high.

Change the process, reduce the number of management, give developers more empowerment, and get rid of the whiners. Do more with less and deliver more to the business.

P-Man

[upscorpis]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

When I can see someone in the district create something for a tiny fraction of the cost of IS, something is wrong. What happens is the business is losing the benefit we need because IS cost is too high.

Change the process, reduce the number of management, give developers more empowerment, and get rid of the whiners. Do more with less and deliver more to the business.
P-Man

If you're stating that this is due purely to dead wood, then I respectfully disagree. The corporate IS team generally develops solutions that are meant for broad usage. The district "developer" is doing something for a much smaller and sometimes singular audience. The "abilities" of these types of development are quite different. Scalability, reliability, adaptability, flexibility, maintainability, reusability, supportability for large numbers of users and transactions are required attributes for customer facing, corporately developed applications. The district developed solutions generally focus on suitability to a narrow situation. These two types of applications are not the same and therefore cannot cost the same.

I understand what you're saying regarding the extra overhead. It certainly exists. However, to state this is the reason a district "developer" can do things more cheaply is a bit of a stretch to me.

[ISWarrior]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man

First, no shame in getting work done in 40 hours. That's a good thing. In the original post I was responding to, the poster said he / she was working 12 hours every day. I've never seen that.

Second, on my assignments I didn't work in billing / finance, but I did work next to them. (At least I think that was the right group). At the time Stu S. was the division manager and he had an office in Ramsey. Worked on multiple projects with him and his user and IS group.

My biggest issue with IS is their process and top heavy structure. Many do not go the extra mile to service the business. I assume that you are NOT one of those I'm complaining about.

When I can see someone in the district create something for a tiny fraction of the cost of IS, something is wrong. What happens is the business is losing the benefit we need because IS cost is too high.

Change the process, reduce the number of management, give developers more empowerment, and get rid of the whiners. Do more with less and deliver more to the business.

P-Man

I agree 100%. There are WAY too many 2 unit managers. That is what causes the problems. The reason it costs so much to produce software is the red tape and burerocracy involved. Endeless pointless meetings, who is steping on whose toes. No one actually cares about the business, just their own little empire.

FYI - I am 2 unit and I STILL agree with this point!

[peacock71]

Then all should be 2-units. There was once a partnership theory in IT that we always had to do more with less. The IT pros had to interact with UPSers on all levels and take on loads of responsibility. If you are doing more with less, and all are in the 'shared sacrifice' mode, a lot can be accomplished. Increase someone's stake in success, and the petty jealosies melt away.

Go UPS!
P71

[DownsizedUPS'er]

Originally Posted by MIPMASTER

I for one, think we could cut 10% of the work force across UPS and not miss a beat! Just stop and think of your area.....Is there 1 person in 10 who just isn't cutting it AND doesn't care to improve? I am not justing talking the lower ranks, I AM TALKING ACROSS THE BOARD (no pun intended)!!!! Ask yourself the question....If I started my own company, would I hire that bottom 10% person.

The intent of the above approach is personal accountability. DO YOUR JOB WELL!! We want the best, the brightest, the hardest workers, etc. Anyone who disagrees is probably a slacker!

what if you were that one person? stop and think, perhaps in your area, people think you are not "cutting it". what if these consultants that the company hires comes in and says this can be done but an outsource agency, and your entire dept., company wide is cut. try getting a job in this market.

don't be so quick to say "do your job", that has nothing to do with the downsizing. it is about the BOD and share holders looking for the biggest buck. not sure if you worked for the company before we went public, but i did. and UPS is a far different company now, that it is a pubicly held company. when we (the employees) owned the company things were far different.

[2029guy]

We were told that they produce a report from WAR looking at anyone who does not put in 41.3 hours and they produce a badge report that matches with WAR. I always do a minimum of 42 43 hours when there is a issue much much more. Don has a SQL Server database with all this data in it.

[2029guy]

They outsourced large parts of billing, production support already, new development is still being done in Morristown. It seems that there are always requirements that get dropped because of a lack of resources I don't understand why they don't move people around more from one group to another.

[2029guy]

Originally Posted by DownsizedUPS'er

what if you were that one person? stop and think, perhaps in your area, people think you are not "cutting it". what if these consultants that the company hires comes in and says this can be done but an outsource agency, and your entire dept., company wide is cut. try getting a job in this market.

don't be so quick to say "do your job", that has nothing to do with the downsizing. it is about the BOD and share holders looking for the biggest buck. not sure if you worked for the company before we went public, but i did. and UPS is a far different company now, that it is a pubicly held company. when we (the employees) owned the company things were far different.

I worked here before we went public and I totally agree this is a completely different company. People are being treated as if they were just another liability like the cost of fuel nothing more.

I think a lot of people at high levels in this company are Republicans and are they ever pissed off that the Democrats are in charge now. For eight years they could do anything they liked and now their poor decisions are coming back to haunt them.

[2029guy]

Scott Davis made 5.6 Mil last year.



http://people.forbes.com/profile/d-scott-davis/41433

[Hoaxster]

Originally Posted by 2029guy

I think a lot of people at high levels in this company are Republicans ...

Originally Posted by 2029guy

Scott Davis made 5.6 Mil last year.

Damn, being a Republican pays well!

hey----lots of old familiar names and avatars !! Interesting that this old topic is generating new interest. Welcome Back !

na....one day I will tell him though----I still peruse the BC but haven't posted in awhile---

I'm interested to know if there really is a SQL "Timecard Database" for management folks. And has an official memo from HR been distributed regarding the new 42 hour work week? If so, I must have missed it.

and welcome back 2029guy too !!

[virtualpro]

Originally Posted by 2029guy

Scott Davis made 5.6 Mil last year.

http://people.forbes.com/profile/d-scott-davis/41433

I would think the leader of a company with the legacy of UPS and making that kind of money could come with a more innovative way to control costs other than outsourcing, classifying people as LEs then demoting and possibly cutting jobs. All of these options are very demoralizing and unproductive.
Maybe if Scott and the management committee were to take a 15% cut; option level managers 10%; 2 Unit 6%; 1 Unit 3% and hourly 1% cut. Renegotiate Consultant contracts or replace.
How much would that save?
Result:
1. Instead of Off-shore keep the jobs in the US
2. Not add to the US unemployment ranks
(Both could also be huge PR wins for UPS)
3. Not reducing staff, keeps people in the UPS IS work force to still produce new applications
4. With all of the systems we have - there is still a need to keep them running & we still need people for that. Layoffs would put the remaining people on overload and our systems and customers at risk.
5. Achieves cost cutting

Other options for cost cuts?

[Dfigtree]

Originally Posted by virtualpro

I would think the leader of a company with the legacy of UPS and making that kind of money could come with a more innovative way to control costs other than outsourcing, classifying people as LEs then demoting and possibly cutting jobs. All of these options are very demoralizing and unproductive.
Maybe if Scott and the management committee were to take a 15% cut; option level managers 10%; 2 Unit 6%; 1 Unit 3% and hourly 1% cut. Renegotiate Consultant contracts or replace.
How much would that save?
Result:
1. Instead of Off-shore keep the jobs in the US
2. Not add to the US unemployment ranks
(Both could also be huge PR wins for UPS)
3. Not reducing staff, keeps people in the UPS IS work force to still produce new applications
4. With all of the systems we have - there is still a need to keep them running & we still need people for that. Layoffs would put the remaining people on overload and our systems and customers at risk.
5. Achieves cost cutting

Other options for cost cuts?

Fire VIRTUALPRO?

[07960]

If the company reclaimed 5% of unused options, there might not be a need for anyone else to take additional cuts.

[Hoaxster]

Originally Posted by 07960

If the company reclaimed 5% of unused options, there might not be a need for anyone else to take additional cuts.

I don't get this ... any options that are available to 18 level and up, as far as I know, are worthless right now.
What type of options are you talking about?

[gimmeabreak]

Perhaps 07960 meant to say "If the company retired 5% of useless option level managers"

[Dagoof]

Originally Posted by ImpactedTSG

First off, that was not me that said that about missing a beat. Why don't you read back through and you would see that MIPMASTER said that?

Second, I've been out of UPS for over a year, so it's not me that is causing customers to be lost. I am working as a network engineer in a totally differerent industry than the shipping industry. I do know my stuff. Believe me, I can drive a truck and walk a box up to a door. Can you tell me what this means?

interface Ethernet0/0
ip address 69.69.69.69 255.255.255.0
full-duplex
!
interface Serial0/0
ip address 69.69.69.68 255.255.255.0
no ip unreachables
no ip proxy-arp
no fair-queue
no cdp enable
!
interface Serial0/1
no ip address
ip nat inside
shutdown

*those are fake IPs so don't try to hack them

I think he is cussing at you in computer language.

[TechGrrl]

Originally Posted by upscorpis

If you're stating that this is due purely to dead wood, then I respectfully disagree. The corporate IS team generally develops solutions that are meant for broad usage. The district "developer" is doing something for a much smaller and sometimes singular audience. The "abilities" of these types of development are quite different. Scalability, reliability, adaptability, flexibility, maintainability, reusability, supportability for large numbers of users and transactions are required attributes for customer facing, corporately developed applications. The district developed solutions generally focus on suitability to a narrow situation. These two types of applications are not the same and therefore cannot cost the same.

I understand what you're saying regarding the extra overhead. It certainly exists. However, to state this is the reason a district "developer" can do things more cheaply is a bit of a stretch to me.

I agree with everything you just said to pertzel_man. The district programmers have very limited scope to the applications they create. True enterprise applications have much higher requirements for availability and maintainability.

Having said that, I think Mr. Barnes is chasing a chimera with the global sourcing gig. Most of the rest of the industry has figured out that just because you can hire a programmer for $10 a day in Mumbai, doesn't mean you can get an enterprise application for cheaps. I am not aware of any successful 'global sourcing' project that we have ever had. Most of the ones I am aware of collapsed in smoking ruins due to the difficulty of communicating across 12 time zones and coordinating the multiple business units that needed to participate. Very few applications these days are 'stovepipe' in the sense that only one business unit needs to be consulted about the requirements. Half the time we can't communicate successfully across town or between ATL, NJ, and LOU.

I suspect that Dave is being driven to this idiocy by a management committee driven by a bean counter mentality that doesn't 'get it'. Dave should be educating them on this issue, not buckling.

Coca-Cola just located a new applications development group in Louisville, INSTEAD OF OVERSEAS, because they figured out overseas was too expensive ONCE YOU ADDED UP ALL THE COSTS! Their new office is across the street from the Air Group Building, and I already know folks applying there, because they have had it with the top management screwing with them.

[mungrin]

Well im the best employee in my station so im pretty sure my job is safe.