Feeder Work Question

[av8torntn]

Can I fight this?

One of my CPU customers processes about 3000 UPS ground packages every day. They only put about 30 on my trailer to pick up and take to the hub. The rest I have to sign the end of day summary and they hold them until Saturday. On Saturday morning UPS freight comes and picks up the trailers and takes them to UPS ground hubs. We have been losing runs all year. There has been at least one bump going on at all times since since bid time. A couple of us have talked to our BA and he says there is some kind of side agreement in the southern region that allows ups to move packages any way they want and there is nothing he can do. Is there any thing that we can do. We have guys that will not even make a good year for retirement since it seems that we are not even guaranteed work unless you are on a bid route. We have gotten them to lay some guys off so they could at least work some in package. But it seems there is plenty of work here.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Edit to add: Our BA told us that all side agreements over ride the NMA and there is nothing we can do to change it.

[UpstateNYUPSer]

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Can I fight this?

One of my CPU customers processes about 3000 UPS ground packages every day. They only put about 30 on my trailer to pick up and take to the hub. The rest I have to sign the end of day summary and they hold them until Saturday. On Saturday morning UPS freight comes and picks up the trailers and takes them to UPS ground hubs. We have been losing runs all year. There has been at least one bump going on at all times since since bid time. A couple of us have talked to our BA and he says there is some kind of side agreement in the southern region that allows ups to move packages any way they want and there is nothing he can do. Is there any thing that we can do. We have guys that will not even make a good year for retirement since it seems that we are not even guaranteed work unless you are on a bid route. We have gotten them to lay some guys off so they could at least work some in package. But it seems there is plenty of work here.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Edit to add: Our BA told us that all side agreements over ride the NMA and there is nothing we can do to change it.

When you sign the end of day, simply cross out the "3000" and write "30" and then legibly sign your name both where you normally sign and then below where you changed the number. You can also ask them to run separate end-of-days, one for you and the other for the freight driver.

As far as this diversion, I have little experience in this area and therefore will not comment.

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

Is your trailer full? Unless you can only fit the 30 packages on the tail, something sounds odd. Of course, we all know that this outfit will do whatever it takes to divert work to other carriers. They like to get their digs in too.

[av8torntn]

Originally Posted by What'dyabringmetoday???

Is your trailer full? .

No the trailer is not full. They only put the packages on the trailer that their customers call and tell them they need rushed. Nothing going on here seems right to me. They UPS freight guys told me last night that they were told if they talk to me again they will be fired.

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

Originally Posted by av8torntn

No the trailer is not full. They only put the packages on the trailer that their customers call and tell them they need rushed. Nothing going on here seems right to me. They UPS freight guys told me last night that they were told if they talk to me again they will be fired.

That is what the supervisors have warned the part-timers in my building about talking to me. Nobody is going to get fired for talking to someone. I suppose if you stop on the side of the road for a long period of time and chew the fat, that would be bad.

[705red]

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Can I fight this?

One of my CPU customers processes about 3000 UPS ground packages every day. They only put about 30 on my trailer to pick up and take to the hub. The rest I have to sign the end of day summary and they hold them until Saturday. On Saturday morning UPS freight comes and picks up the trailers and takes them to UPS ground hubs. We have been losing runs all year. There has been at least one bump going on at all times since since bid time. A couple of us have talked to our BA and he says there is some kind of side agreement in the southern region that allows ups to move packages any way they want and there is nothing he can do. Is there any thing that we can do. We have guys that will not even make a good year for retirement since it seems that we are not even guaranteed work unless you are on a bid route. We have gotten them to lay some guys off so they could at least work some in package. But it seems there is plenty of work here.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Edit to add: Our BA told us that all side agreements over ride the NMA and there is nothing we can do to change it.

Are you kidding me? Absolutely not this is subcontracting in my books. Do you have a copy of your contract? I would file the grievance and if your union does nothing about it i would vote them out in the next election.

I would also go to this pick up on a Saturday with video in hand and tape this diversion of our work. I can not believe that our union would allow this knowing ups's history and knowing that they would try this.

[av8torntn]

Originally Posted by 705red

Are you kidding me? Absolutely not this is subcontracting in my books. Do you have a copy of your contract? I would file the grievance and if your union does nothing about it i would vote them out in the next election.

I would also go to this pick up on a Saturday with video in hand and tape this diversion of our work. I can not believe that our union would allow this knowing ups's history and knowing that they would try this.

Of course I am not kidding. I have a contract. I tried the grievance against subcontracting while drivers are laid off out of classification. Our BA says that it will not work since the customers are putting the packages on UPSf trailers. He says we cannot tell the customers where to put their packages. I am having a hard time understanding how this is not subcontracting.

Anyway today instead of having me sign the end of day report they wanted me to sign a blank label. They said that I could not come look inside the trailer. I decided not to sign a blank label or anything else. I also told them that I am not pulling a trailer without knowing what was in it so they sent someone else down there. Things just are not adding up here. Thanks for allowing me the time to vent. Thanks for the replies.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Can I fight this?

One of my CPU customers processes about 3000 UPS ground packages every day. They only put about 30 on my trailer to pick up and take to the hub. The rest I have to sign the end of day summary and they hold them until Saturday. On Saturday morning UPS freight comes and picks up the trailers and takes them to UPS ground hubs. We have been losing runs all year. There has been at least one bump going on at all times since since bid time. A couple of us have talked to our BA and he says there is some kind of side agreement in the southern region that allows ups to move packages any way they want and there is nothing he can do. Is there any thing that we can do. We have guys that will not even make a good year for retirement since it seems that we are not even guaranteed work unless you are on a bid route. We have gotten them to lay some guys off so they could at least work some in package. But it seems there is plenty of work here.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Edit to add: Our BA told us that all side agreements over ride the NMA and there is nothing we can do to change it.

Sounds like the customer is either zone skipping to save costs or timing the shipments so they all hit their customers on the same day.

The good news is we get the packages. At some point we will sort them, move them by feeders from those hubs and deliver them.

The bad news if you were successful in stopping this practice could be the total loss of this business if the customer thinks we are not flexible enought to provide them the service they need or want.

[gandydancer]

Originally Posted by tieguy

Sounds like the customer is either zone skipping to save costs ... if you were successful in stopping this practice [the result] could be the total loss of this business if the customer thinks we are not flexible enought to provide them the service they need or want.

The customer isn't getting "flexibility", just a lower price. It doesn't care whether UPS Freight or UPS drivers truck the packages to the hub. UPS is choosing to have UPS Freight underbid an all-union solution. And if it can get away with it, why not have all bulk p/u performed by UPSF?

[705red]

Originally Posted by tieguy

Sounds like the customer is either zone skipping to save costs or timing the shipments so they all hit their customers on the same day.

The good news is we get the packages. At some point we will sort them, move them by feeders from those hubs and deliver them.

The bad news if you were successful in stopping this practice could be the total loss of this business if the customer thinks we are not flexible enought to provide them the service they need or want.

From reading his posts these are ups packages and not freights meaning this is our work being moved by freight which is clear cut subcontracting.

I would write and or call ken hall and inform him, if not pm me with this info and i will call ken hall myself.

He has fellow ups drivers/friends on lay off and freight is moving our work?

[JimJimmyJames]

I wonder if the packages are palletized and each pallet goes to a single customer.

Also, is the UPSF driver union?

If either of these are true it might have a bearing on the situation.

[av8torntn]

Originally Posted by JimJimmyJames

I wonder if the packages are palletized and each pallet goes to a single customer.

Also, is the UPSF driver union?

If either of these are true it might have a bearing on the situation.

Our UPSF guys are union.

[UpstateNYUPSer]

Originally Posted by JimJimmyJames

I wonder if the packages are palletized and each pallet goes to a single customer.

Also, is the UPSF driver union?

If either of these are true it might have a bearing on the situation.

This sounds like a typical trailer load from one of our larger shippers destined for many customers, not just one. Tie gave some very good possibilities as to why this shipper is doing this but I have to agree that if we have feeder drivers laid off and they are shipping the bulk of this via UPSF then that is sub-contracting.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by gandydancer

The customer isn't getting "flexibility", just a lower price. It doesn't care whether UPS Freight or UPS drivers truck the packages to the hub. UPS is choosing to have UPS Freight underbid an all-union solution. And if it can get away with it, why not have all bulk p/u performed by UPSF?

You have to give the customers more credit for understanding the logistics games then you have here.

He has figured out that he can use UPS freight to skip zones and save money .

We can not make him use UPS ground drivers at a higher premium.

He could also decide to use a non-union freight carrier to drop ship into other zones or other carriers. At least he is using our freight guys and our ground network in those zones to sort and deliver those packages.

[705red]

Originally Posted by tieguy

You have to give the customers more credit for understanding the logistics games then you have here.

He has figured out that he can use UPS freight to skip zones and save money .

We can not make him use UPS ground drivers at a higher premium.

I call bs! If he is using ups small package you dam straight we can make him use small package feeder drivers. Who schedules the pick up? Do you expect us to believe that he ships boxes through ups but schedules freight to pick it up.

He could also decide to use a non-union freight carrier to drop ship into other zones or other carriers. At least he is using our freight guys and our ground network in those zones to sort and deliver those packages.

Why dont they lay you off and let the freight feeder manager schedule our feeder runs?

[av8torntn]

Originally Posted by tieguy

You have to give the customers more credit for understanding the logistics games then you have here.

He has figured out that he can use UPS freight to skip zones and save money .

We can not make him use UPS ground drivers at a higher premium.

He could also decide to use a non-union freight carrier to drop ship into other zones or other carriers. At least he is using our freight guys and our ground network in those zones to sort and deliver those packages.

Just to satisfy my curiosity. Do we have customers that want UPS to deliver their packages but not transport them? We have plenty of customers that build what would be the same as a night sort load and our drivers pick them up and take them to their destination as their bid run. My guess is and this is not based on any knowledge is that UPS gives some type of price break to do this and we have just picked up some former DHL volume by offering this.

Well anyhow I flat out asked supervision what was going on at my former customers account (while they were telling me they were taking that pick up off my route) and they claim the decision was made by IE to use UPSF to move these loads.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by 705red

Why dont they lay you off and let the freight feeder manager schedule our feeder runs?

In this case the customer did dictate that his packages would move by freight and he therefore did dictate that the freight manager would be scheduling his work. Concepts like zone skip are taught in every business school in the country. The international needs to start sending some of you folks to business school so you actually understand what is going on in the real world.

call bs! If he is using ups small package you dam straight we can make him use small package feeder drivers. Who schedules the pick up? Do you expect us to believe that he ships boxes through ups but schedules freight to pick it up.

Interesting answer Red. So customer ABC says he is going to skip zones and use ups freight to do so. And we tell him what? No? Do it the way we tell you or go somewhere else? Not a very smart answer.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Just to satisfy my ocuriosity. Do we have customers that want UPS to deliver their packages but not transport them? We have plenty of customers that build what would be the same as a night sort load and our drivers pick them up and take them to their destination as their bid run. My guess is and this is not based on any knowledge is that UPS gives some type of price break to do this and we have just picked up some former DHL volume by offering this.

Well anyhow I flat out asked supervision what was going on at my former customers account (while they were telling me they were taking that pick up off my route) and they claim the decision was made by IE to use UPSF to move these loads.

AV8 that answer is somewhat correct but also somewhat misleading. Customer tells BD what they want. BD tells them what we can do for them with the help of IE. Customer then makes the final decision based on what we say we can do for them. I.E.'s role is then to implement the plan based on that customers decision.

[tieguy]

Originally Posted by av8torntn

Just to satisfy my curiosity. Do we have customers that want UPS to deliver their packages but not transport them?

Answer is yes. Lets say your customer operates in new york. He can skip zones and save considerable money doing so. Instead of paying zone 3 charges to have the packages sorted in NY they send them to Chicago and pay zone 1 charges to have them sorted in chicago. Can be a big savings for them.

Customer will asks us about the options we have to offer. Ultimately it will be their decision on how they want to move the packages. Many of these customers are very savy and know how to work us for the best option.

[JimJimmyJames]

I think this "zone skipping" is becoming more apparent to us at regular UPS because now our company has a lower cost outlet to divert customers to, UPSF. So, UPS as a corporation doesn't lose the business, but our division does. But, if tieguy is correct, we would have probably lost the business anyways.

Still, my fear is that UPS encourages this. Why? Look at what happened to Consolidated Freightways. Con-Way was created as a non-union division of CF. Eventually this division, in my opinion, undermined the parent company, on purpose, to the point the union part of CF was spun off and allowed to go under.

But, UPSF is now, or becoming, mostly union. They are, and I am happy that they are, but one has to wonder why UPS caved to Teamster demands for them to be allowed to organize UPSF so easily. Could it be so that the union wouldn't balk if UPS diverted volume to another division that doesn't pay it's employees as well, so long as that division is union? As long as the union is getting it's dues, does it care?

All of this makes me wonder about those FSTZ boxes I see being pulled by UPSF lately....

[gandydancer]

Originally Posted by tieguy

You have to give the customers more credit for understanding the logistics games then you have here.

He has figured out that he can use UPS freight to skip zones and save money .

We can not make him use UPS ground drivers at a higher premium.

He could also decide to use a non-union freight carrier to drop ship into other zones or other carriers. At least he is using our freight guys and our ground network in those zones to sort and deliver those packages.

Dunno what makes you think "zone skip" is some sort of rocket science that I don't grasp. UPS can price its services any way it wants. Specifically, it can offer runs by UPS feeder drivers in an equvalent-to "zone skipping" price contract at the same price as UPS Freight runs, if it wants to. No, it won't make as much money as it can with cheaper drivers, and at the margin there are some accounts where at the price it can get the business it will lose a little money using Feeder and make a little money using Freight, but that's an argument for giving EVERY kind of freight run to Freight, or owner-operators, and shutting down the in-house feeder operation. Or for cutting people out of the interior operation, say, in reverse order of their wages (counter-seniority) since THAT would be cheaper for the company, and it could afford to bid lower. Etc. One point of a union is to restrict management from doing things that lower its costs at the expense of its workforce, in this case subcontracting at the expense of feeder drivers.

[705red]

Originally Posted by tieguy

In this case the customer did dictate that his packages would move by freight and he therefore did dictate that the freight manager would be scheduling his work. Concepts like zone skip are taught in every business school in the country. The international needs to start sending some of you folks to business school so you actually understand what is going on in the real world.

call bs! If he is using ups small package you dam straight we can make him use small package feeder drivers. Who schedules the pick up? Do you expect us to believe that he ships boxes through ups but schedules freight to pick it up.

Interesting answer Red. So customer ABC says he is going to skip zones and use ups freight to do so. And we tell him what? No? Do it the way we tell you or go somewhere else? Not a very smart answer.

You are purposely diverting our work to freight! We dont have feeder drivers solo or sleeper teams that can move that work?

If this customer wants to use ups freight to move his packages have him strap each package down on a skid and pallet jack it onto several hundred freight trailers.

These are small packages and should be moved by ups not freight, and if your local allows this than you need to vote their sorry rear ends out.

Now tie before you say that we have to make money i will agree, but when i have fellow workers laid off and our work is being diverted i say shut ups down! Strike them for it!

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by 705red

when i have fellow workers laid off and our work is being diverted i say shut ups down! Strike them for it!

Way wrong answer in this economy, Red. -Rocky

[705red]

What would be your answer rock? People are laid off, might not have medical benefits for their family, not making their regular wage and their job is being bid out to cheaper labor labor, what would someone of you experience with 2 6 month stints working ptime do? Now think about it through a husband/fathers eyes not some kid thats going through college still trying to find himself!

[RockyRogue]

Originally Posted by 705red

What would be your answer rock? People are laid off, might not have medical benefits for their family, not making their regular wage and their job is being bid out to cheaper labor labor, what would someone of you experience with 2 6 month stints working ptime do? Now think about it through a husband/fathers eyes not some kid thats going through college still trying to find himself!

I never said it was right, Red. I DID say I thought talking strike was a bad idea in this economy. If you go out on strike, how many more of your union brothers and sisters will be out of a job, potentially permanently? Think carefully before you talk strike. I have nothing but the highest respect for those automotive workers that staged those sitdown strikes in the 30's and 40's. What you're talking about might put a quarter million people out of work. That's unconscionable. -Rocky