OJS certification & discipline for performance - Page 3 - Brown Cafe

Sleeve_meet_Heart · 04-21-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UpstateNYUPSer

I think that song was actually written by UpstateNYUPSer--boy, is he arrogant!

case in point- craving attention so turn the spotlight onto you, in the 3rd person nonetheless.

UpstateNYUPSer · 04-21-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeve_meet_Heart

case in point- craving attention so turn the spotlight onto you, in the 3rd person nonetheless.

Self deprecation.

coldworld · 06-30-2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberups

I seem to recall a driver around here getting fired about 20 years ago over production, but his was a blatant case where he was consistently able to demonstrate something like 15 SPORH while supervised and only 10 SPORH alone. This occurd over a long period of time and was far beyond the normal statistical variation that will occur day-to-day on a route.

I recently represented a driver who had maintained a documented average over 30 days of 14.2 SPORH and on the one day he was ridden with he did 14.75. His methods were good and he still came in 1.5 hrs overallowed. Management wanted him to "commit" to maintaining 14.75. I told them that a .55 SPORH increase on one particular day out of 30 was statistically irrelevant, and that the driver would commit to nothing other than working safely and by the methods. The matter was dropped.

.55...what a joke. Depending on your load quality and number of "cuts" that someone is given a sporh can be 2 or 3 off an average. Sorry to bring back this 3 month old thread but just wondering if anyone who posted here, of folks getting warning letters at their centers, have any new info on any of this?

SKAGITDRIVER · 06-30-2009, 10:04 PM

toss the keys on the table tell the suit you want his clipboard and you will watch how he/she delivers the route for the next 3 days should be an interesting conversation that morning but then again...

coldworld · 06-30-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKAGITDRIVER

toss the keys on the table tell the suit you want his clipboard and you will watch how he/she delivers the route for the next 3 days should be an interesting conversation that morning but then again...

then if they fall over with a heart attack or tweak their back pulling that over 70 out from under the shelf then guess whos the one thats going to be written up!!!ohhh...the joys of brown.

upsman8801 · 08-26-2009, 11:25 AM

I just received a "warning letter" today actually. Earlier this month I had a ride along and my average SPORH was 17.12 Then three days later they looked at my SPORH and it was 15.95 Now today I got a letter stating that "..the results of supervised vs. unsupervised have been reviewed with you, and you had no reason for the drop in demonstrated proficiency in delivery and pickup methods..." later the letter goes on to say "...Therefore, i find it necessary to officially warn you. Future infractions will result in more severe disciplinary action up to and including discharge."
First off- the results were never "reviewed with me"- AND when the sup was riding with me he took out a stop watch and clocked me- yet at the end of the 3day ride along told me I did great! I dont get it... you cant get discharged for this, right? What should I do now?

UpstateNYUPSer · 08-26-2009, 01:03 PM

Did the supervisor assist you during your OJS ride? Is there anything that has changed on your area since that ride? Was the pkg car "tweaked" for those 3 days? Can you think of anything different between then and now that could account for the loss of 10 stops in 8 hours?

I am not an expert by any means on the NMA but I do see the company using performance standards for disciplinary reasons and I would have to say that they can indeed terminate for production. That is my opinion only.

upsman8801 · 08-26-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UpstateNYUPSer

Did the supervisor assist you during your OJS ride? Is there anything that has changed on your area since that ride? Was the pkg car "tweaked" for those 3 days? Can you think of anything different between then and now that could account for the loss of 10 stops in 8 hours?

I am not an expert by any means on the NMA but I do see the company using performance standards for disciplinary reasons and I would have to say that they can indeed terminate for production. That is my opinion only.

My sup didnt assist me- he rode my heels all day and used his stop watch on me to make sure I was going fast. The biggest difference was when he was on car with me he "cleaned up" my truck for me in the morning- made sure everything was in order- made sure i only had x amount of packages blah blah blah... then on the other day (when I was at a 15.95)
i had 50+ more packages thenon the three day ride along with the sup. I also had more heavy packages, ect.

UpstateNYUPSer · 08-26-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upsman8801

My sup didnt assist me- he rode my heels all day and used his stop watch on me to make sure I was going fast. The biggest difference was when he was on car with me he "cleaned up" my truck for me in the morning- made sure everything was in order- made sure i only had x amount of packages blah blah blah... then on the other day (when I was at a 15.95)
i had 50+ more packages thenon the three day ride along with the sup. I also had more heavy packages, ect.

That is what I meant by "tweaked" and that can very easily increase a SPORH by at least 1 or 2.

Pump Up The Volume · 08-26-2009, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upsman8801

I just received a "warning letter" today actually. Earlier this month I had a ride along and my average SPORH was 17.12 Then three days later they looked at my SPORH and it was 15.95 Now today I got a letter stating that "..the results of supervised vs. unsupervised have been reviewed with you, and you had no reason for the drop in demonstrated proficiency in delivery and pickup methods..." later the letter goes on to say "...Therefore, i find it necessary to officially warn you. Future infractions will result in more severe disciplinary action up to and including discharge."
First off- the results were never "reviewed with me"- AND when the sup was riding with me he took out a stop watch and clocked me- yet at the end of the 3day ride along told me I did great! I dont get it... you cant get discharged for this, right? What should I do now?

You own that 17.12 number, start documenting everything for your eventual termination or start making friendly with everyone.

browndevil · 08-26-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upsman8801

I just received a "warning letter" today actually. Earlier this month I had a ride along and my average SPORH was 17.12 Then three days later they looked at my SPORH and it was 15.95 Now today I got a letter stating that "..the results of supervised vs. unsupervised have been reviewed with you, and you had no reason for the drop in demonstrated proficiency in delivery and pickup methods..." later the letter goes on to say "...Therefore, i find it necessary to officially warn you. Future infractions will result in more severe disciplinary action up to and including discharge."
First off- the results were never "reviewed with me"- AND when the sup was riding with me he took out a stop watch and clocked me- yet at the end of the 3day ride along told me I did great! I dont get it... you cant get discharged for this, right? What should I do now?

Did you have the exact same amount of stops, pieces, traffic the same, customers willing and ready to sign, OCAs, assisted help with over 70s, did any customers ask you to move any packages for them, did you reattempt any packages to reduce send agains, did you alternate delivery? Then if you didn't I can see why you dropped 1 1/2 stops per hour. Notice the sarcasm? Don't sweat it someday you might have a SPORH over 17.12 and I am sure you will

purplesky · 08-26-2009, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by browndevil

Did you have the exact same amount of stops, pieces, traffic the same, customers willing and ready to sign, OCAs, assisted help with over 70s, did any customers ask you to move any packages for them, did you reattempt any packages to reduce send agains, did you alternate delivery? Then if you didn't I can see why you dropped 1 1/2 stops per hour. Notice the sarcasm? Don't sweat it someday you might have a SPORH over 17.12 and I am sure you will

Are there actually ON CAR SUPS that go out and do OJS rides for 3 days. In my hub with ED and all the route eliminations I cant imagine any management trying to hold you to a number. Its all crap because routes change day to day and there is no consistency in dispatch now. WE have alot of drivers working 12 hours taking 20 min of lunch with the rest paid. We dont have any sups now that could shadow a driver for 3 days without needing some medical assistance. Thats not a joke.

westsideworma · 08-27-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC4YOU2

On OJS days, mgmt goes thru the load and removes misloads, puts every SPA in sequence, and tidy's it all up before drivers get to the building, plus looking for easy stuff to add for best sporh

I can neither confirm nor deny this accusation.....

However I will say that should such things be happening then I believe its an integrity issue. Package cars will never have perfect loads everyday and while 3 days in a row is perfectly possible, its unlikey it'd be absolutely perfect that often in succession without "help". It's stacking the deck, cheating, etc. Unless the loader is completely unable to be rushed which is few and far between these days and builds quality loads. Course I'd love to see anyone come in and load 1000-1200 pieces in 3.5 hrs and have it be perfect. And since our company loves numbers I'll give you the chances of that actually happening...0%, its a fact, don't believe it? prove it to me out in the operation and I'll be a believer, until then I'll use my experience loading as well as common sense and remain confident that my estimate is correct.

I'm all for being productive as we need to be to remain successful. However pie in the sky numbers are no good to anyone. It makes your hard working employees feel frustrated (to a degree) as it appears nothing they do is ever good enough and then the middle level producers will care even less because you're harassing everyone even the people who "bring it home" because its not enough. This is horrible for morale which is important in productivity believe it or not, but since theres no number to measure this, we seemingly don't care about it.

Give people goals they have a chance at meeting, not the impossible.

upsman8801 · 08-27-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by browndevil

Did you have the exact same amount of stops, pieces, traffic the same, customers willing and ready to sign, OCAs, assisted help with over 70s, did any customers ask you to move any packages for them, did you reattempt any packages to reduce send agains, did you alternate delivery? Then if you didn't I can see why you dropped 1 1/2 stops per hour. Notice the sarcasm? Don't sweat it someday you might have a SPORH over 17.12 and I am sure you will

No to almost everything. I had 90 stops everyday when I was with my sup (90 is my truck max) and than on the other random day they looked at I had 98 stops... plus I had 50+ more pieces than when I was with my sup... traffic is never the same, I deliver on a very busy main street where the lights are always f*ed up. I also had 3 or 4 overweights AND I had a couple sales leads! My teamster rep is telling me not to stress- but it still worries me...

Jones · 08-27-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upsman8801

No to almost everything. I had 90 stops everyday when I was with my sup (90 is my truck max) and than on the other random day they looked at I had 98 stops... plus I had 50+ more pieces than when I was with my sup... traffic is never the same, I deliver on a very busy main street where the lights are always f*ed up. I also had 3 or 4 overweights AND I had a couple sales leads! My teamster rep is telling me not to stress- but it still worries me...

If you haven't already done so get with OMS and have him/her print out copies of your OR for each day of the OJS ride and keep those handy. You are exactly right about spohr being effected by piece count, miles are another factor as well as COD's and signature vs DR stops. If they try and drop the hammer on you 6 months from now, you don't want to have to rely on memory to make your case.

Pump Up The Volume · 08-27-2009, 04:12 PM

This may help. These are actual numbers. Spohr is the number 1 indicator!
All your little details matter not!

Unsupervised (weekly averages not a one day instance)

miles- 59 pkgs- 231 Stops - 112 Pickups - 19 SPOHR- 13.81

Supervised (weekly averages not a one day instance)

miles- 53 pkgs- 264 stops 120 pickups 23 SPOHR - 15.68

Wouldn't you expect the driver to maintain the dlp?

grgrcr88 · 08-27-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigblu 2 you

does anyone know of an actual case of a driver being fired due to sub par performance? im not talking about stealing time or bad/wrong methods,just a slower then what a sup/mgr expects,but doing his/hers job safely, where im at they are threatning 3 day rides,lock in that average,then chain of discipline afterwards if not meeting those numbers on weekly avg.almost every driver at our center has over 25 years,"we are old goats"we dont move as fast as we did 18 years ago when the last time study was done in our bldg.give me some good advice/ammo for me and my brothers,no b.s please just facts. thanks.

We have had 2 drivers in our local terminated due to not maintainig demonstrated levels of SPORH. Both lost their cases!!

You must maintain the SPORH that you demonstrated you could do in the 3 day lock in period or you will be in trouble, unless you can show that the route has changed since the lock in took place. By change I do not mean different areas. I mean a change in miles, stop count, number of business vs. resi stops, or bulk.

We are having a huge battle on this isue here right now!!

Should know more after our next JAC Hearings!!

grgrcr88 · 08-27-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jones

If you haven't already done so get with OMS and have him/her print out copies of your OR for each day of the OJS ride and keep those handy. You are exactly right about spohr being effected by piece count, miles are another factor as well as COD's and signature vs DR stops. If they try and drop the hammer on you 6 months from now, you don't want to have to rely on memory to make your case.

People are getting disciplined in our building for printing out the OR. Sups will not give it to anyone without filing a grievance and a written request for information, which they will take as long as they want to to give it to you!!

Brown-up · 08-27-2009, 06:05 PM

First of all, sorry to hear what you are going thru. In response to the warning letter you need to attach a rebuttal. A fellow driver and myself came up with this one. It will raise some eyebrows and also protect your job. It is effective if used correctly. After you file the rebuttal go about your job as usual. You have an obligation to yourself, your family, your co-workers and UPS to do your best everyday. Goodluck.

Re: Discipline for failure to meet productions standards

UPS’s measurement of work and how it pertains to productivity is imprecise. Time allowances and their relevance to work performed including, to and from area travel; on area travel and time at stop are highly impressionable based on varying conditions which impede their accuracy. These constantly changing conditions lead to varying times in completing work, therefore making no transparent calculation for time. Varying factors which may include others not mentioned are as follows: Weather, which leads to delays in driving, walking and may also change delivery location. Interruptions in driving due to traffic, construction delays and other safety related issues. Customer service issues which can lengthen time at stop. Excessive AM or PM time based on the ineffectiveness of other UPS operations. Technologies effect compounded by human error. Assistance in completing work from customers, supervisors or other UPS employees. Load conditions due to other operational imbalances. Area knowledge and distortion based on day to day variances. Fluctuating volume levels which effect all operations on a daily basis .These factors along with conditions not mentioned can and will have a profound effect on a driver’s level of productivity on a daily basis.

According to Article 37 section 1 paragraph A of our contractual agreement "The parties agree that the principle of a fair days work for a fair days pay shall be observed at all times and employees shall perform their duties in a manner that best represents the Employers interest." The company’s use of "over allowed" to enact discipline is unfair and unjust. "Over allowed" as it pertains to a measurement of work is meant to identify a problem may exist. It does not, under any circumstance, decide who or what may be the cause. Our labor agreement does not recognize time allowances, or a failure to meet them as being cause for disciplinary action. Future unsubstantiated claims will be considered grounds for grievance submittal under article 37 of the National Master United Parcel Service Agreement.

Employee ______________________________
　
Steward ______________________________
　
Date ______________________________

coldworld · 08-27-2009, 08:56 PM

ok, this is happening all over the us and the economy is making it worse. Why isnt the union taking a stand on this on a national level? There are drivers that are doing the job in an efficient matter but the numbers are not there, and ups wont do nothing about them. If you just look at some of the routes, the numbers dont add up. everybody knows this including management, but nothing is done. There are drivers that are becoming so stressed out that they are making themselves ill.Everybody needs to stick together on this...

brownrodster · 08-28-2009, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3HrsOverAllowed

. A month or so ago our division mgr. had three drivers in the office and gave us a piece of paper called the "service provider re- training initiative". This paper outlines how the company plans on terminating drivers who fail to conform to their production standards.

That is low. Oftentimes an increase in production is contrary to the safe work methods they teach us and pretend to want us to follow.

This company needs to start harassing the quickest drivers who break all the safety rules instead of those who actually work as directed and work safely. As it is, as long as you can produce a certain number they will just pretend that you are working safely to accomplish that number. They cannot afford to have us all work safely. I ***** you not, a few days ago a driver delivered to my house who was not wearing his seat belt and had his bulk head door open, left the truck idling and ran to and from the truck. I didn't know drivers still did this.

tourists24 · 08-28-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pump Up The Volume

This may help. These are actual numbers. Spohr is the number 1 indicator!
All your little details matter not!

Unsupervised (weekly averages not a one day instance)

miles- 59 pkgs- 231 Stops - 112 Pickups - 19 SPOHR- 13.81

Supervised (weekly averages not a one day instance)

miles- 53 pkgs- 264 stops 120 pickups 23 SPOHR - 15.68

Wouldn't you expect the driver to maintain the dlp?

details dont matter but your numbers do? All I see here is the info on paper. It doesnt say anything about what stops he/she had; where they are located; any add/cuts. Since it an average, was one day really bad and one really good? Maybe they had a couple of really crappy loaders, air stops.... there is more to life than the numbers

705red · 08-29-2009, 06:13 AM

We are also being hit with the 3 day performance rides here. I have 1 driver on notice of suspension for dropping 1 stop per hour. During his 2 3 day rides he averaged 18.5 spor. Now with the routes busted several splits and an additional 13 miles a day he dropped off by a little over 1 stop per hour.

Here we have a sitting arbitrator for discipline and the company is going to eventually terminate someone and roll the dice at panel on it. I have a driver that is maintaining his spor from his performance ride but its not good enough, so the on car did a demonstration rife were he did the work all day and I told the driver to ojs him.

The driver took the note book and documented the sup speeding, driving with ndas scanned in the board so they wouldn't be late, calling pick ups to see f they have anything going out and the sup still ran the route 2 stops per hour worse than the driver does. And no the sup was not disciplined for any of his actions.

tourists24 · 08-29-2009, 06:32 AM

this is the exact reason I am telling all of our drivers to keep a journal with all pertinent information from their routes. Do this every day. If they want to compare sporh then it needs to be with the exact same route; not one that has added or cut sections. Keeping a journal lets you show exactly what is changing from day to day as well as stop counts and any types of delay you encounter.

DukeofBoxes · 10-25-2009, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandydancer

Company can claim their fewmets are pure gold, but an elementary level of knowledge of probability and statistics will tell you that three observations averaging 18.5 is perfectly consistent with an underlying performance level of 17, never mind occasional performance at the 17 level. An underlying performance of 20 or more is also consistent with both at a certain probability, nevermind the possibility that management is skewing the experiment. Hopefully the union hasn't agreed to anyone on the arb panel who can't grasp this.

It's called "excessive supervision" in the contract. No point in delaying the union's involvement.

I was one of those guys in my center who wished I would get OJS'd so I could show mgt that I wasn't goofing off, and my numbers were accurate. Then I got my 'wish' and I'm sorry to say my performance went up slightly on the first two days (an ave of 15.4 before, and I gave them a 16.7 2 days of the ride). But on the third day, despite more pkgs, and more stops than the previous two days, the manager instructed me to alter my routine (the way I drove into my route) and I came up 5 miles shorter than the previous two days. THis jumped my spore up to 18.7! So now I'm told I'm going to be held to a 17.3 because ONE day I was able to hit the mark. I can't complain other than to say whether or not the manager 'pushed' me or not, a superior standing over you with a clip-board is intimidating and you're just naturaly going to work a little faster. But how I hit that 18.7 I can't figure. My steward questioned it at the review and the manager said it was because my travel miles were down made a difference in spore since it's a factor.

The only problem I have with this is I am wondering if management can go in and change the allowances per stop and if that affects spore? My manager told me he was going to change one of the allowances for one of my stops ( I deliver to a prison and it takes me about 30 minutes everyday). If that's the case and changing the allowances changes the spore, then I have no way of knowing if that's why my third day of my ride went up so high.